Are Doctrines affected by Modern Versions

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DNB

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The 'principle' that 'the shorter reading is to be preferred', has no more foundation that simply someone's idea of 'because we said so'. It is to be rejected as man-made hooplah. There is no logical reason to accept it, and no evidential reason to accept it, and no historical reason to accept it, and no manuscriptural evidence to accept it, there is no scriptural (iow, no thus saith the Lord, or It is written) reason to accept it. Even calling it a 'principle' is purely propagandistic, as if it has some actual weight for validity, in acceptation, when it has no such thing. It belongs right with the false idea that the oldest mss (etc) are the most reliable, most correct, most accurate, most untainted, when age has nothing to do with accuracy, or correctness, or even preserved in its contents.
Now, ReChoired, you're showing either a blatant ignorance, or a blatant bias.
By the most elementary principle, regarding sacred text or not, the oldest is the most reliable because it is the closest to the originals, and thus, less time for copyist errors and manipulation, well intended or not. This is a maxim of scribal principles and textual criticism, that again, does not even pertain only, to inspired scripture, but to all texts of antiquity. Simple reasoning warrants its veracity.

The shortest reading is always the preferred, or takes precedence, because, historically speaking, scribes have always had the tendency to add for the sake of clarity, or harmonization. In other words, as a hard fast rule, passages always grew in length the later the manuscript. That is, when there's a length discrepancy, the later manuscripts, as a rule, are always longer than the earlier MSS.

So, for you to say that, '...There is no logical reason to accept it, and no evidential reason to accept it, and no historical reason to accept it, and no manuscriptural evidence to accept it, there is no scriptural reason to accept it...' Makes you sound, again, unreasonable or ignorant of the matter at hand. For you, or anyone, can't refute what I said above.
 

DNB

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They actually change the meaning to a false doctrine, so for those verses, no. For instance, Romans 8:1 deletes the condition of walking in the Spirit. So the false doctrine of your present and future sins being forgiven and there will be no penalty for the sins you keep committing, just as long as you believe in Jesus is a blatant error and not recognizing exactly what Jesus came to do. He came to free us FROM sin, not giving us freedom TO sin.

Interestingly, Westcott and Hort were spiritualists, doing seances, and were fans of Darwin. Knowing that gives me the creeps.
The expression, 'Those that are in Christ' encompasses all that Christ stood for and professed. None of the Gospels nor the Epistles ever endorsed a licentious behaviour for the saved, But on the contrary rather, they strongly forbade to sin. For Jesus died for us for our sins, therefore we are dead to sin. So the fact that W&H removed it, was because it was not part of the original, and therefore, does not change the meaning. For, 'Those that are in Christ' do walk by the spirit, any Christian knows that this goes without saying, for they know what Christ taught as far as behaviour is concerned.
 

CharismaticLady

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mercy did you even read what i asked ?

All I read was DT saying SDA was a cult to you, and I said not they are not a cult. Then you said to me, thank you David Taylor. So it seemed you were thanking DT for his view that SDA was a cult. Why didn't you just thank him yourself? Why go through me??? Strange.
 

CharismaticLady

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The expression, 'Those that are in Christ' encompasses all that Christ stood for and professed. None of the Gospels nor the Epistles ever endorsed a licentious behaviour for the saved, But on the contrary rather, they strongly forbade to sin. For Jesus died for us for our sins, therefore we are dead to sin. So the fact that W&H removed it, was because it was not part of the original, and therefore, does not change the meaning. For, 'Those that are in Christ' do walk by the spirit, any Christian knows that this goes without saying, for they know what Christ taught as far as behaviour is concerned.

If that is so, then we have a lot of dimwits on the forums that believe we will always sin and Jesus has already paid the penalty for our past, present and future sins. Wrong, he took away our PAST sins, then gave us the power to not sin in the present and the future.
 
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Ezra

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All I read was DT saying SDA was a cult to you, and I said not they are not a cult. Then you said to me, thank you David Taylor. So it seemed you were thanking DT for his view that SDA was a cult. Why didn't you just thank him yourself? Why go through me??? Strange.
strange my eye my question was to D taylor asking him why they was a cult in other words why did he consider? you chimed in said no . you read into something and then assume . if someone feels sda is cult i want to know for my self... then i can determine for MYSELF
 

ReChoired

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If that is so, then we have a lot of dimwits on the forums that believe we will always sin and Jesus has already paid the penalty for our past, present and future sins. Wrong, he took away our PAST sins, then gave us the power to not sin in the present and the future.
And some think 'modern' versions don't affect doctrine. :rolleyes: The two doctrines are as night and day aren't they CharismaticLady?

Real religion teaches:

Rom_3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;​
 
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Ezra

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If that is so, then we have a lot of dimwits on the forums that believe we will always sin and Jesus has already paid the penalty for our past, present and future sins. Wrong, he took away our PAST sins, then gave us the power to not sin in the present and the future.
then does that make you a dimwit also ? we will sin we do have a dovecote. my little children these things i write to you that you sin not .but if you do you have advocate. see paul wrote sin shall not have dominion over us because w e are under grace. sin is there we will sin but at the same time we should know how to take care of it. 1 john 1;7 & 9
 

CharismaticLady

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strange my eye my question was to D taylor asking him why they was a cult in other words why did he consider? you chimed in said no . you read into something and then assume . if someone feels sda is cult i want to know for my self... then i can determine for MYSELF

Cults are sects that misrepresent Jesus and who He is.

Some believe to not be a cult you must believe that Jesus is God. JW's believe Jesus is a created being. Mormons believe God was once a man, and earned His own planet to rule and be a got, and that both Jesus and Satan are brothers.

SDA's believe none of that garbage. The only thing different is they believe the Ten Commandments are binding on Christians. Paul says we are not under the law, but under the Spirit. Some believe SDA's are a cult because they, themselves, believe all the gifts ceased, so how could they have a prophetess... I would put DT in that category.
 

CharismaticLady

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And some think 'modern' versions don't affect doctrine. :rolleyes: The two doctrines are as night and day aren't they CharismaticLady?

Real religion teaches:

Rom_3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;​

yes, and 2 Peter 1:9
 
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CharismaticLady

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then does that make you a dimwit also ? we will sin we do have a dovecote. my little children these things i write to you that you sin not .but if you do you have advocate. see paul wrote sin shall not have dominion over us because w e are under grace. sin is there we will sin but at the same time we should know how to take care of it. 1 john 1;7 & 9

The sins we will not commit are 1 John 3:4, sins against God, also seen as the sins unto death in 1 John 5:16-17. Jesus is NOT our Advocate for those sins, only trespasses toward each other. 1 John 1:7. As long as we walk in love and forgive each other the trespasses we commit against each other, we are automatically forgiven. If we hold a grude, we are not forgiven. 1 John 1:9 is how to become a Christian in the first place - ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, which would include sins unto death when we are justified and sanctified. Jesus then gives us the Spirit to walk in and not commit sins unto death.
 

Ezra

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And some think 'modern' versions don't affect doctrine
man affects doctrine even before all the new versions come in . some believe salvation is so secure if we commit premeditated murder . were still going to heaven . some believe you have to be baptised speak in tongues to be saved. much pf this has filtered in through the years. man has added on much like the lawin the o.t imo granted some versions are very watered down. some are more strong worded than the kjv
 

DNB

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If that is so, then we have a lot of dimwits on the forums that believe we will always sin and Jesus has already paid the penalty for our past, present and future sins. Wrong, he took away our PAST sins, then gave us the power to not sin in the present and the future.
Sorry CL, you didn't say anything, .....I said that the stipulation '...and walk by the spirit..' was not in the earliest manuscripts, therefore was excluded by the modern translators that reference the W&H, N/A & UBS. Point is, it doesn't change doctrine, as that, just because it's omitted, it doesn't mean that it's not implied, like you are trying to say. The spirit is at enmity with the flesh, is a principle that is understood by all Christians, ...I don't care who says otherwise.
So your allegations about doctrine being changed due to exclusion, does not hold water by any standard, it's just silly actually?
For, what about all the other verses that state one must be in Christ, that don't make the same stipulation, are they deficient or misleading also, obviously not!
 

Ezra

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Jesus is NOT our Advocate for those sins, only trespasses toward each other.
so there is a list of sins that jesus only covers ? if so would you provide then i want thesin into death i only know of one blaspheme which is total rejection of Christ dying in your sins. no repentance Jesus is our advocate to those saved FOR every sin . your using limited atonement
 

Ezra

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.I said that the stipulation '...and walk by the spirit..' was not in the earliest manuscripts
this part is written in italics in romans which was added as you have already stated {who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.} if were in Christ there is no condemnation. because we are not under the law
 

DNB

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this part is written in italics in romans which was added as you have already stated {who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.} if were in Christ there is no condemnation. because we are not under the law
That's right, ...is CL advocating a works salvation?
 

Hidden In Him

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The 'principle' that 'the shorter reading is to be preferred', has no more foundation that simply someone's idea of 'because we said so'. It is to be rejected as man-made hooplah. There is no logical reason to accept it

I could see the motivation behind why scribes would add to the texts to provide more clarity, but what do you think was the logical reason why they were subtracting from them?
 

Hidden In Him

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They actually change the meaning to a false doctrine, so for those verses, no. For instance, Romans 8:1 deletes the condition of walking in the Spirit.

Ok, this serves as a good case in point for what I was asking ReChoired in Post #319. I can see adding a phrase as giving further clarification on the text, but to deliberately subtract it would (as you suggest) imply there was a deliberate move to insert heresy into church doctrine. But here's the question: Why then would they retain the same phrase in Romans 8:4? Seems like if this were the motivation they would have eliminated it from both verses, yes? The same goes for 1 John 4:3 and 1 John 4:2. If the scribes were wishing to corrupt church teaching by subtracting key phrases, why didn't they eliminate it from the passage altogether?
 
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