Universalism: Where Do People Get The Idea

[Giuliano]

I think God knew what the risks were when He made us with the ability to love Him or not. He chose to make us anyway. If we loved Him, fine. If we didn't, He'd live with that; and maybe someday we'd change our minds. We cannot damage God if we don't love Him. We'd be happier if we did love God; but He leaves that choice up to us.

We can however cause God more grief if we damage each other. If I injure one of His children, God cares. If I get too far out of hand, putting me in hell might a very good idea where I'm with other nasty people.

Likewise if I am unforgiving when someone is sorry, God is very disappointed in me. I'm choosing to keep a problem alive when it could vanish if I was willing to forgive. Surely some people won't be forgiven by God if they refuse to be forgiving. They can pay for that sin by being tormented. We can learn the easy way or the hard way. Yes, God can make us pay for our sins if we are making His other children miserable. I think He does it to protect them more than to punish us.

Matthew 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Note it: The punishment lasts until the debt is paid.

 

[DNB]

Yes, it is "loving they neighbour" in action.
Many old saying have been twisted to make them negative..for some reason.

Please people, that explanation does not come even close to either the context, or the intention of the author?
He said specifically, '...burning coals on their head...'. any body with a slight bit of wisdom understands the significance of treating wickedness with kindness, it causes remorse in the instigator. It does not cause a warm, fuzzy feeling. If that were the case, the culprit may have well have been applauded for his evil. The burning of one's conscience leads to repentance.
You guys are joking, right?

2 Corinthians 7:10 - Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

 

[Ezra]

You guys are joking, right?

probably not just saying

 

[brakelite]

Note it: The punishment lasts until the debt is paid.

And scripture is clear what that debt consists of... It is life itself... The wages... The debt... Of sin is death.

 

[brakelite]

So many perspectives , all based on personal opinions as to the character of God.
God is all loving and kind... All shall be saved.
God is loving but only for the saved... So many shall be lost.
God is austere and judgemental... so most will be lost.

Allow me if I may to try and offer some balance, based not on opinion, but on scripture.God loves everyone... The whole world... That He gave His Son for the salvation of man. In fact, God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. God wants everyone to be saved, and has done everything He could to make that possible, and is continuing to plead with mankind through the gospel... Which reveals the true character of God... To forsake sin and accept His mercy and grace as a gift.
This was Jesus' message. This was the gospel He preached, and it should be the gospel the church is preaching also. But sadly, that is not the case.
There is not one person in all of history that Jesus did not die for. Stalin, Hitler, Caiaphus, the soldiers that hammered the nails into His feet, even you and me. And there have been some, sadly way too many, who have looked at the gift, considered the cost, and turned away. God would not have made it easy for such to do that. The Son had already paid the ransom for their deliverance and freedom. But some, maybe many, have chosen this world instead, seeking the fleeting pleasures of this life rather than the promise of life everlasting. God is long suffering with these... Calling them to repentance...I know, I was one of them. And finally, I heard the voice of the Spirit and gave up. But not all will do that. They repudiate the sacrifice, turn their backs on the previous gift, and die... No second chance... No opportunities for a change of mind. It is in this life, and this life only that we have the choice of life or death.

KJV Ezekiel 18
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

KJV Isaiah 55
Seek the Lord
6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

There are decided conditions to salvation. First, repentance. Turning away from all sin. Believing God's promises... Accepting His word that He can do for you what you cannot do for yourself... Walk in obedience. Not everyone shall avail themselves of these promise... And others will not believe them.
But we do see a great multitude standing on the sea of glass numbering millions... Hundreds of millions,.. Who believed and were saved.

 

[DNB]

So many perspectives , all based on personal opinions as to the character of God.
God is all loving and kind... All shall be saved.
God is loving but only for the saved... So many shall be lost.
God is austere and judgemental... so most will be lost.

Allow me if I may to try and offer some balance, based not on opinion, but on scripture.God loves everyone... The whole world... That He gave His Son for the salvation of man. In fact, God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Good wants everyone to be saved, and has done everything He could to make that possible, and is continuing to plead with mankind through the gospel... Which reveals the true character of God... To forsake sin and accept His mercy and grace as a gift.
This was Jesus' message. This was the gospel He preached, and it should be the gospel the church is preaching also. But sadly, that is not the case.
There is not one person in all of history that Jesus did not die for. Stalin, Hitler, Caiaphus, the soldiers that hammered the nails into His feet, even you and me. And there have been some, sadly way too many, who have looked at the gift, considered the cost, and turned away. God would not have made it easy for such to do that. The Son had already paid the ransom for their deliverance and freedom. But some, maybe many, have chosen this world instead, seeking the fleeting pleasures of this life rather than the promise of life everlasting. God is long suffering with these... Calling them to repentance...I know, I was one of them. And finally, I heard the voice of the Spirit and gave up. But not all will do that. They repudiate the sacrifice, turn their backs on the previous gift, and die... No second chance... No opportunities for a change of mind. It is in this life, and this life only that we have the choice of life or death.

KJV Ezekiel 18
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

KJV Isaiah 55
Seek the Lord
6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

There are decided conditions to salvation. First, repentance. Turning away from all sin. Believing God's promises... Accepting His word that He can do for you what you cannot do for yourself... Walk in obedience. Not everyone shall avail themselves of these promise... And others will not believe them.
But we do see a great multitude standing on the sea of glass numbering millions... Hundreds of millions,.. Who believed and we saved.

Very well said ...except for the first part, for i think that even your stance is an opinion, of which I agree with, but still, an interpretive opinion!

 

[brakelite]

Very well said ...except for the first part, for i think that even your stance is an opinion, of which I agree with, but still, an interpretive opinion!

Ummm, which specifically do you refer to as the "first part" if I may venture to inquire?

 

[Giuliano]

And scripture is clear what that debt consists of... It is life itself... The wages... The debt... Of sin is death.

That's a gloomy take on it, portraying God as sadistic. If I wanted to end someone's life completely, I'd do it all at once. I wouldn't torture him.

You say it's clear? Is it? I ask, "Death of what?"

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Go back to Genesis. Did Adam and Eve die then and there? I'd say in one way they did. What happens to the people thrown into the Lake of Fire? Why aren't they completely put out of existence?

 

[brakelite]

That's a gloomy take on it, portraying God as sadistic. If I wanted to end someone's life completely, I'd do it all at once. I wouldn't torture him.

You say it's clear? Is it? I ask, "Death of what?"

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Go back to Genesis. Did Adam and Eve die then and there? I'd say in one way they did. What happens to the people thrown into the Lake of Fire? Why aren't they completely put out of existence?

Portraying God as sadistic. And right there is confusion. How can anyone suggest God is sadistic toward sinful mankind when His own Son, begotten in the express image of the Father, laid aside His royal prerogatives and attributes and took upon Himself sinful human flesh and accepted on our behalf that death sentence? Sadistic? No wonder the gospel isn't accepted by the world when it's preachers have so little understanding of who God is and what His real character is like.
You take one small segment of truth and judge God on a partial revelation... Read my next post for the full story.

 

[Giuliano]

So many perspectives , all based on personal opinions as to the character of God.
God is all loving and kind... All shall be saved.
God is loving but only for the saved... So many shall be lost.
God is austere and judgemental... so most will be lost.

You must think He did a poor job of designing this world then. If He was not willing any should perish, why design a world where most would? Did He lack the Wisdom to do it? Was He lacking the ability?

ANo second chance... No opportunities for a change of mind. It is in this life, and this life only that we have the choice of life or death.

I present you with two scenarios.

Two sinners get drunk in a bar, and the first tone pulls out a knife and kills the other. The first guy is arrested and imprisoned where a visiting Christian convinces him to become a Christian. Now in your opinion, what happens -- does the murderer spend eternity in bliss while the second is damned eternally?

The second scenario has a missionary in a foreign land; and a dying man who heard about Jesus sends a message asking the missionary to come to explain what he must do to become a Christian. The missionary has a flat tire. By the time he changes it and arrives, the man has died. Will that man go to hell because the missionary had a flat tire?

 

[Giuliano]

Portraying God as sadistic. And right there is confusion. How can anyone suggest God is sadistic toward sinful mankind when His own Son, begotten in the express image of the Father, laid aside His royal prerogatives and attributes and took upon Himself sinful human flesh and accepted on our behalf that death sentence? Sadistic? No wonder the gospel isn't accepted by the world when it's preachers have so little understanding of who God is and what His real character is like.
You take one small segment of truth and judge God on a partial revelation... Read my next post for the full story.

Don't try to blame the Father for anything. Jesus laid down his life on his own; and his motive was love.

 

[Waiting on him]

Romans 14:11 KJV
[11] For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

What happens when we confess too God? He says every knee.... and I believe Him
Tecarta Bible

 

[Ezra]

What happens when we confess too God?

he is just and able to forgive us and clean us 1 john 1:9

 

[Harvest 1874]

Why do some people think that everyone goes to Heaven in the end?

It should be noted that the “some people” mentioned here are professed Christians.

Their failure stems from not having properly divided the word of God, not having taken into consideration the two phases of the kingdom, the heavenly phase and the earthly phase. Not everyone, every professed Christian who says “Lord, Lord” shall enter the heavenly kingdom that is the heavenly phase of the kingdom; the majority will to take their share in the earthly phase of the kingdom along with the rest of the world.

Now if you are speaking specifically of our Universalist friends, although their hearts are big they have neglected to consider all four of the Lord’s attributes (wisdom, justice, power and love) all of which are in perfect sync with one another. Neither God’s love nor his mercy will override his sense of justice, therefore although he loved the world dearly and was sympathetic with their plight he could in no way simply clear the guilty (pardon theirs sins), therefore he arranged a plan by which he could not only greatly honor his only begotten Son, but likewise at the same time redeem his creation. Thus it was that our Lord Jesus taking the form of a bond servant humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross that he by the grace of God might become the propitiation (the atoning sacrifice, to justice) for our sins (the Church), but not for ours alone, but for the whole world.

 

[Waiting on him]

he is just and able to forgive us and clean us 1 john 1:9

He said every knee! Every mouth!

 

[Harvest 1874]

we dont have that authority to say who will and who want.. i do believe everyone has the chance to be saved and go to heaven ..but not everyone will

Everyone will be given the opportunity for eternal salvation (if not in this lifetime in the next), for God will have all men to be saved (from the Adamic curse or sentence), and to come to an accurate knowledge of the truth, that Christ Jesus by the grace of God tasted death for every man who has come into the world, that he has become a ransom for all.

However this does not imply that everyone who is saved is destined to heaven, the majority will take their share in the earthly phase of the kingdom, paradise restored, that is those who are willing and obedient and who pass the final test at the end of the next age.

 

[Harvest 1874]

I do have to say that I have found myself doing some thinking on God not willing any to perish.

And I have also wondered if, as many people claim, Revelation is showing us the future..... Then why are the trees planted for "The Gentiles/Nations", and the river flowing out of the Holy City for them, when supposedly Christ and His army had long-ago, slaughtered all the unbelievers.

It's good to see you are a "thinking" Christian Willie, that you are using your God given ability to reason things out for yourself, and not just blindly accepting the established dogma propagated by the nominal church.

 

[Harvest 1874]

Ive always wondered where or when the word "eternal" , became forever and ever . I've done a word study on ages, eon, forever , etc...

It does amaze me how easily humans ( christians) can so glibly say ""He or she is off to hell" ...without even a blink of an eye.
But God is a 'checker of fruit'...and He will be checking , on That Day.

Maybe that is the whole test of our life and faith.....maybe that is the acid test we are all up against... = " Do we love like God did/does.."

I am not sure that when we stand 'alone' before Him , He won't say -
" So you were tested by your heart....and you are found wanting..you did not love like I did, but will to write people off with a flick of the little finger."

I personally am not will to take that chance. I will 'judge' God as righteous and merciful , ready to forgive... I will not risk judge Him a hard and austere man as in the parable.

Just my two cent's

As it is written: "With what mercy you give so shall you receive."

 

[Ezra]

Everyone will be given the opportunity for eternal salvation (if not in this lifetime in the next), for God will have all men to be saved (from the Adamic curse or sentence), and to come to an accurate knowledge of the truth, that Christ Jesus by the grace of God tasted death for every man who has come into the world, that he has become a ransom for all.

However this does not imply that everyone who is saved is destined to heaven, the majority will take their share in the earthly phase of the kingdom, paradise restored, that is those who are willing and obedient and who pass the final test at the end of the next age.

do what ? the next lifetime? care to show scripture ..umm if your saved your on your way to heaven .scripture once again to back this up

 

[brakelite]

If He was not willing any should perish, why design a world where most would?

An enemy has done this.... God, with this one statement, denies all responsibility for sin in the world.

Two sinners get drunk in a bar, and the first tone pulls out a knife and kills the other. The first guy is arrested and imprisoned where a visiting Christian convinces him to become a Christian. Now in your opinion, what happens -- does the murderer spend eternity in bliss while the second is damned eternally?

The second scenario has a missionary in a foreign land; and a dying man who heard about Jesus sends a message asking the missionary to come to explain what he must do to become a Christian. The missionary has a flat tire. By the time he changes it and arrives, the man has died. Will that man go to hell because the missionary had a flat tire?

You are now asking me to be the judge? Later my friend, when I have all the information.

Don't try to blame the Father for anything. Jesus laid down his life on his own; and his motive was love.

blame? Where am I blaming the Father, or Jesus for that matter, for anything? Sin was not their fault... Yet together they decided on a plan to overcome and deal with the problem. They didn't have to... It was quite within their divine prerogative to destroy humanity and start again. But love chose otherwise. What am I blaming God for? I thank Him for God grace and mercy every day... What more could the Godhead have done for a rebellious race?