Universalism: Where Do People Get The Idea

[reformed1689]

Well, since the Old Covenant is null and void, where do you think Christian doctrines come from -- where do you think the doctrine of Christ comes from, except from the NT? So we should dismiss your false conclusion.

And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. (Acts 2:42)

The apostles' doctrine came directly from the Lord Jesus Christ. Not only did He open all the OT Scriptures to them after His resurrection, but He taught them for 40 days after that. Plus Paul received his doctrines directly from Christ after his conversion.

Where do you get the idea that the OT is null and void?

 

[reformed1689]

What!! Sound doctrine does not come via the OT.

What do you get this crackpot idea?

 

[DNB]

Okay, but opinion based on observation. And since this thread has started, we have seen the full gamut of the above... Which is why I thought a balance was needed

You remark about the scripture, I personally, thought was valid. But your accusation that everyone was else was offering personal and unobservant opinions, I thought was naive. For even your conclusion must be scrutinized, as much as mine, and everyone else's, because we're all trying to make inductions and deductions from what we personally understand scripture to be saying.
For, I'll go as far as to say that your interpretation held more insight, but,everyone else, as far as they were concerned, were equally basing their opinions on scripture.
That's all I'm saying. In other words, had you accused them of being dull or lacking wisdom, i would've felt that that was a more acceptable and accurate statement. But to say that only your opinion was based on scripture, well, like I said, it's so obvious that everyone feels that way about their own positions, that it's even become a cliché.

 

[brakelite]

Was merciful? Lol this was not a one time occurrence 2000 years ago. What He has displayed is who He truly is, and it’s not gonna change.
What you all speaking is your character and your nature lacking mercy and forgiveness.

was Merciful from the context of the time they are being awakened to it, and these people, who have lived their entire lives according to their deceitful lusts and selfishness, will, because they find any current relationship with holiness totally abhorrent, will find heaven utterly painful to them, so God, in mercy, will destroy then, putting them out if their misery.

The time is nearing when Christ's ministry in the heavenly sanctuary as our Mediator and intercessor, will close.. He shall then come, not as High Priest, but as King of Kings and Lord of lords to take home those who are His.
KJV Revelation 22
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

 

[Giuliano]

What!! Sound doctrine does not come via the OT.

... how about giving me ANY scripture verse that states that God's Justice over rules all His other attributes...I'm waiting...
So many of you keep on quoting that , as if it is a scripture verse....

I take a middle path. After all, Paul said all scripture was profitable for doctrine. He would have meant the Old Testament when he wrote that not the New. The problems arise from how difficult the Old Testament can be in places, how easily they can be misunderstood.

Thus Jesus said people had heard it said an eye for an eye. People abused that verse, using it to justify being vengeful. Properly understood, it means the penalty should never be more severe than the crime. It was a matter for the courts. If someone put out one of your eyes, there was a monetary value placed on it. You shouldn't demand more than that. The courts should not reward you with more. There is absolutely no requirement however that you should take the matter to court -- you could forgive him. If it was an accident and you didn't need the money, why not forgive him? If the loss of an eye meant you lost income, maybe then ask for the money.

 

[reformed1689]

After all, Paul said all scripture was profitable for doctrine. He would have meant the Old Testament when he wrote that not the New.

BINGO!

 

[Base12]

Why do some people think that everyone goes to Heaven in the end?

Simple...

God is Love.

 

[Harvest 1874]

Where do you get the idea that the OT is null and void?

Well said, the Old Covenant is still binding upon the Jew still to this day, that is upon all those Jews who have yet come out from beneath it's yoke by coming into Christ.

As for the Gentiles they were never under it in the first place.

The only active covenant at this time besides the Old Covenant is the Covenant of Sacrifice (Psa 50:5) and it is only applicable to the fully consecrated believer, those who have entered into covenant relationship with the Father through sacrifice (Rom 12:1).

The New Covenant will not go into effect until the next age following the completion of the Church, until the Great Mediator (Head and body) is complete, and then only to be made with the house of Israel (fleshly Israel), and through them to the rest of the world. (Jer 31:31-34)

 

[Base12]

I think this place is hell.

One of three.

 

[DNB]

What!! Sound doctrine does not come via the OT.

... how about giving me ANY scripture verse that states that God's Justice over rules all His other attributes...I'm waiting...
So many of you keep on quoting that , as if it is a scripture verse....

Hi Helen, it's not so much that there are specific verses about God's justice always superseding his mercy, but more that God's covenants will not fall by the wayside.
God implemented the Law, it was binding to all that wanted to find favour with God (Jews and proselytes).
Just because no one was able to fulfill the Law, it would make God look foolish or incompetent to just rescind it, as though he didn't know what he was doing in the first place. Thus, it had to be fulfilled, and God waited for Christ to do so. Otherwise, it cannot be ignored or not taken seriously, for God is not frivolous, he does not establish doctrines mindlessly.
Now, that Christ has, first of all, completed the Law in order to allow God to abrogate it, and secondly, remained obedient unto death, do you think that God considers this to be a small issue? That, people can either choose to revere his son and his efforts, or just not, as though it makes no difference to God? Heaven forbid!
For God's son paid for our sins at a great price, who will God allow to regard this with indifference or contempt?
So, as much Helen, as you expect your words & will to be taken seriously by those under your authority, so does God, for he does not establish precepts or covenants that have the option to be ignored, or rejected. For he does not consider his Will or Word to be incidental.

 

[Giuliano]

BINGO!

That being said, then we need to remember that many passages in the Old Testament are hard to understand. I understand then why Helen asked for a passage from the New Testament.

We need to remember that Jesus said in one place that the Law and Prophets could be summed up by the Golden Rule. In another he said they could be summed up by loving God and loving our fellow man. The correct way of interpreting them always takes love into account. Some false doctrines portray God in a way that makes it harder for people to love Him. They become stumbling blocks to people who then imagine God is not a God of Love. They imagine God is like some earthly fathers who act domineering and bossy, angry if anyone dares disobey because his authority is questioned. Some people imagine God is like that. That can't be right. God is not like an insecure father worried about His authority. He has nothing to worry about. He doesn't have to prove His "masculinity" to anyone.

God is like the father in the story about the Prodigal Son. When his son wanted to leave, he didn't try to stop him. There is a part of that story some often fail to notice. His father spotted him coming back when he was a great distance away. His father was expecting him back. His father had been watching. It says a lot to me about how we humans behave. How long will we humans continue to live among the pigs out of pride, refusing to return to God? How long do we want to live in a way that creates misery for ourselves? God may not like it when we're living in misery with the pigs; but He is patient. He will win in the end when His children "wake up" and "come to their senses."

God made man wonderfully since we can learn from our mistakes.

 

[reformed1689]

Simple...

God is Love.

Great use of Scripture...oh wait...

 

[Base12]

Great use of Scripture...oh wait...

1 John 4:8
"He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love"

1 John 4:16
"And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him"

 

[Base12]

I think this place is hell.

One of three.

Child of Hell...

Literal?

Matthew 23:15
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves"

Or not?

If literal, how did they get there to begin with?

 

[Base12]

Babies from Hell...

Literal?

Psalms 139:15
"My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth"

Or not?

If literal, how did he get there to begin with?

 

[brakelite]

What!! Sound doctrine does not come via the OT.

... how about giving me ANY scripture verse that states that God's Justice over rules all His other attributes...I'm waiting...
So many of you keep on quoting that , as if it is a scripture verse....

God is love. Justice doesn't overrule love, it harmonises with it. And you seem to equate being just with being cruel. Yet God says of us that we should do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with God. Justice is not an immoral attribute that needs love to overcome it... It is a necessary and essential trait of the Godhead to keep order in the universe. If justice was negated or overrule by love, then why did Jesus die?

 

[brakelite]

You remark about the scripture, I personally, thought was valid. But your accusation that everyone was else was offering personal and unobservant opinions, I thought was naive. For even your conclusion must be scrutinized, as much as mine, and everyone else's, because we're all trying to make inductions and deductions from what we personally understand scripture to be saying.
For, I'll go as far as to say that your interpretation held more insight, but,everyone else, as far as they were concerned, were equally basing their opinions on scripture.
That's all I'm saying. In other words, had you accused them of being dull or lacking wisdom, i would've felt that that was a more acceptable and accurate statement. But to say that only your opinion was based on scripture, well, like I said, it's so obvious that everyone feels that way about their own positions, that it's even become a cliché.

That's a fair comment.

 

[brakelite]

Sound doctrine does not come via the OT.

might I suggest that all doctrine originated in the OT.?

 

[brakelite]

Simple...

God is Love.

You don't think it would be loving to keep people out of heaven that would invariably disrupt the peace and cause sin to rise again? These people you want in heaven: you do realise they are unconverted right?

 

[07-07-07]

Why do some people think that everyone goes to Heaven in the end? Satan, because he is the father of lies.