Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, biblical or not?

[Getitright]

Look it up...

You posted the passage in support of your claim. You should explain how it supports your claim.

 

[Getitright]

Why would it be figurative?

Because dead people can't feel things.

 

[brakelite]

And yes, "lake of fire", "outer darkness", "furnace of fire" all speak parabolically of the suffering that will be experienced

Jesus likened the fate of the wicked to Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah. Were they also parables then?

 

[mjrhealth]

I cannot fathom God judging us by the "nature of sin" when the Scriptures say we will be judged by our works. You are making things too complicated, if you ask me, especially when talking about crimes not yet committed.

But you see you all miss the point, once in Christ is there is no more judgement for your sin, God cannot judge you for what He has paid for, all sin, it is finished, the ones that face judgement and the second death are the lawyers and those who refuse to accept Him, but in the end, there works will be worthless, all will be burned by fire and they alone will be left standing with nothing. Every one wants to boast.

Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[Giuliano]

But you see you all miss the point, once in Christ is there is no more judgement for your sin, God cannot judge you for what He has paid for, all sin, it is finished, the ones that face judgement and the second death are the lawyers and those who refuse to accept Him, but in the end, there works will be worthless, all will be burned by fire and they alone will be left standing with nothing. Every one wants to boast.

Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Maybe you're missing the point and dancing about trying to avoid a simple point -- Jesus said we will all judged by our works.

Who's boasting? I've done some shabby things.

You appear to want to believe we can do wrong and have others pay for it. I'd call that breaking the Golden Rule.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

If we truly understand what Jesus did on the cross, we will obey him.

Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

 

[Enoch111]

Because dead people can't feel things.

That is incorrect. Read Luke 16:19-31. It cannot possibly be termed a parable since it is not an illustration but a revelation of the afterlife.

 

[Enoch111]

Can you tell me then, according to such a belief, where [the specific location] is the New Jersualem, during this eternal existence of the wicked, once the wicked are cast into the "lake of fire", being 'Outside the gates of the New Jerusalem', surrounding the city itself?

The New Jerusalem does NOT descend to the earth (as is mistakenly believed through a superficial reading). The New Jerusalem is a cubic city (1500 cubic miles in dimension) and it becomes a heavenly body to replace the sun in order to give light to the New Earth.

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. (Rev 21:23,24).

On the other hand, the Lake of Fire is in *outer darkness* (where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth) which could well mean outside outer space (which is NOT infinite). And there is indeed eternal conscious torment in the Lake of Fire. No amount of rationalization changes Bible truth.

 

[Getitright]

That is incorrect. Read Luke 16:19-31. It cannot possibly be termed a parable since it is not an illustration but a revelation of the afterlife.

Hi Enoch,

Are you rejecting the mountains of physical evidence that shows the dead cannot feel things?
I would submit that it is very much a parable. It begins just like the parable before it and the one before that starts out very similarly. In the context of the passage we find no one speaking anything about an afterlife, so that interpretation doesn't fit the context. Also, the details in the parable are quite telling and tell us what the parable is about. It's also spoken to the Pharisees and we know that Jesus only spoke to them in parables so that hearing they would hear and not understand. So, the point of the passage was to say something to the Pharisees that they would hear and not understand. If the passages was about dead people talking I'm sure they could understand that. It seems that there are many Christians who understand it that way so that seems to be out of the question. Before and in the parable Jesus alludes to some Old Testament prophesies. The Pharisees would be familiar with these and if they put the pieces together would have understood what it meant. It was about the judgment that was about to fall upon them.

I would submit that the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is not about the afterlife at all, but rather it is a judgment against those to whom Jesus was speaking, the leadership of Israel. Why would one think this is a parable about an afterlife? If that 's the case, does it mean that the rich go to hell and the poor get saved? Jesus didn't say the rich man was wicked, He just said he was rich. Jesus didn't say that Lazarus was righteous, just that he was a poor. What is here that would indicate that this is what happens to the righteous and the wicked?

The details of the parable give us an indication of what it means. We're told that the Rich Man was clothed in purple and fine linen. What does that mean? We see that the Rich Man is a Jew. Why? We're told that the Rich Man had 5 brothers, why? Why is the beggar named Lazarus? What is "Abraham's bosom:"? All of these details are indications of what the arable is about. This parable is drawn from several Old Testament passages. For instance, the Rich Man is said to be suffering torment in flames in Hades. However, Jesus indicated that Gehenna is where the wicked will go. In the Scriptures Hades is usually translated the grave, not a place of torment. The grave is where the body goes. The Rich Man was in Hades, this indicates his body. We know that dead people can't speak so we should consider that this is a parable.

So, what do the details mean? In Jesus' day Israel didn't have a king, however, the priesthood unofficially served that role. Purple was the color royalty and the priests wore fine linen, this indicates that the Rich Man represents the priesthood. We're also told that the Rich Man had 5 brothers. Levi had 5 brothers. Levi is the head of the Levites which were the tribe of the Priesthood. Why is the beggar named Lazarus? Lazarus is the Greek form of the Hebrew name Eleazar, which means, God Help. Who did God Help? Was it not Jesus? Wasn't the Father with Him and in Him. We're told that Lazarus was covered in sores. Jesus was covered in sores from the lashings. We're told that the dogs licked Lazarus' sores. In the Scriptures Gentiles are referred to as dogs by the Jews. So we have the Rich Man, the Jews, rejecting Lazarus while the dogs, the Gentiles, are accepting Him. Why is Lazarus in Abraham's bosom? Contrary to popular belief, Abraham's bosom is not a location somewhere in the Earth. Abraham's bosom is mentioned in another place in Scripture,

And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee. (Gen. 16:5 KJV)

We see that being in Abraham's bosom means to be in an intimate relationship with Abraham. So, if Lazarus represents Jesus, what does it mean that He is in Abraham's bosom? It means that Abraham is embracing His long promised seed. The Jewish leadership thought that they were the seed of Abraham and heirs to the promises. While they were the physical seed of Abraham, they weren't the promised seed of Abraham. Jesus was the promised seed of Abraham. Paul tells us,

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal. 3:16 KJV)

So, in this parable we see the long awaited Seed of Abraham being embraced by Abraham, and the Jews, the physical seed, being cast off. They'er suffering in the flame. Since this is Hades and not Gehenna, what is the flame. We can see what it is from several Old Testament prophesies. In the Song of Moses, Moses wrote of what would happen to Israel in the latter days.

18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.1

20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.1

23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.

24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.1

25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.1 (Deut. 32:18-25 KJV)

Paul quotes from this passage and applies it to his time so we know that's the time period. Notice verse 22. God says a fire is kindled in His anger and it will burn to the lowest Hades. This passage is about judgment in Christ's day. We know that that judgment came in A.D. 70. What we see here is that God's anger is the fire that burns in Hades. The Rich Man, the priesthood, is suffering God's anger in this parable. We have another prophesy of this same event. I'll post a few passages for the sake of space. It's best to read all of Isaiah 28 and 29 to get the full gist of this judgment.

Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!1

2 Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.

3 The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet:1 (Isa. 28:1-3 KJV)


14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: (Isa. 28:14-15 KJV)

God says Israel will be trodden underfoot. In verse 14 we see that God is addressing the leadership of Israel. However, notice what Israel has said, they had made a covenant with death and are in agreement with Hades. This is their agreement with Rome. He goes on,

Woe to Ariel, to Ariel, the city where David dwelt! add ye year to year; let them kill sacrifices.1

2 Yet I will distress Ariel, and there shall be heaviness and sorrow: and it shall be unto me as Ariel.

3 And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee.

4 And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.1 (Isa. 29:1-4 KJV)

Notice here that God is going to lay siege against Ariel, Jerusalem. This is where the temple and the priesthood are. Remember, God said they in a covenant with Hades. Hades is the grave. In verse 4 Gods says of the priesthood you shall be brought down, you shall speak out of the dust. The Rich Man who represents the priesthood was in Hades, the dust, speaking out of the ground. Notice also that God says their voice shall be one who has a familiar spirit. We can see this in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man.

I'm going to stop here as this post is getting long. There is a lot more I could say on this parable. I haven't even touched on Psalm 50 or the book of Malachi which also are mentioned in this parable. The point is that in this parable Jesus is weaving together several Old Testament prophesies that speak of the coming judgement of Israel. These priests who knew the Scriptures well should have seen this.

 

[mjrhealth]

Maybe you're missing the point and dancing about trying to avoid a simple point -- Jesus said we will all judged by our works.

so God is going to save us from our sins than send us to hell because we are not good enough... really.

 

[Enoch111]

Are you rejecting the mountains of physical evidence that shows the dead cannot feel things?

And are you rejecting the words of the the Lord Jesus Christ who created Hades and Hell? The only one who knows the condition of the unsaved dead is God Himself.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Hi Barney,

I don't think so. I explained it in post 143. An age is an undetermined length of time. The length must be determined by the context. Jesus spoke of this aion and the one to come so it can't be eternity. This age or aion will end as Jesus indicates, so it can't be forever. In the age, aion, of the resurrection Jesus said the ones worthy of that age or aion will never die. That would seem to indicate that that age aion will not end.

When God judges people as not worthy of life and he destroys them, like during the flood and at Sodom and Gomorrah and when he destroys them at Armageddon doesn't God make sure these people have a chance to change and avoid destruction before he acts? Noah while building that ark told the people of his day what God was going to do, today before armmageddon Gods servants are telling the world we are living in the last days, meaning we're living in the second presence of Jesus Christ. If people refuse to believe that truth it's not because God didn't tell and warn them it's because they refuse to believe it and that's on them, not God. The point is when God judges them unworthy of life isn't that an eternal judgement or are you saying that God didn't give them a fair chance when they were living. I believe God will give everyone a chance at external life. But I also believe that there will be those that will and have gone too far and will not ever be given eternal life, so will always remain nonexistent. I believe Satan and his demons are some of these. So are Adam and Eve. I also believe it includes those God destroyed in the flood and at Sodom and Gomorrah and I believe it will include those destroyed at armmageddon. I honestly don't believe these people that God judges and destroys
will ever live again. There's no difference between the righteous and unrighteous except that the righteous go through all the temptations of the unrighteous but choose to believe the truth and live by faith while the unrighteous choose to believe a lie and not live by faith. Not only that but the unrighteous persecute Gods servants by saying they are liars and worshippers of Satan by agreeing with the killing of the True Gods Prophets and servants of the True God. By saying such things about the righteous they are saying not only this about the Son of God Jesus Christ but also about his father and God whose name is YHWH(JEHOVAH/ YAHWEH). I don't think the unrighteous get a better chance than the righteous. I believe all imperfect people are the same. If imperfect people while alive on Earth can believe God and live by faith then that means every imperfect person can choose to do that. If a person chooses not to believe the truth and live by faith then that's their fault, they can't blame no one but themselves because the righteous went through and are going through the same temptations.

 

[justbyfaith]

The passage connects right back to Matthew 25, which we have already shown that "everlasting punishment" is not "torment", but "death"

You have not shown that adequately enough for me to believe your line.

Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death

And again, Revelation 20:10 defines what is the experience of the lake of fire:

Rev 20:10, And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So, not for one, but two aions if your premise is true; but I tend to think that the extra "ever" is added so that it will be unmistakably understood to be an indefinite period of time, i.e. neverending.

Reject this truth if you want, you are only fighting with the Holy Spirit (see Acts 7:51). For He is attempting to convict you of sin and righteousness and judgment.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

I understand what Revelation 20:10 means in context, scripturally, for it refers to the length or period of torment for the devil, not his ending. The devil shall suffer (moment to moment), without reprieve until he is ashes.

Heaven is eternal, no doubt, for God Himself is Eternal Life, and the redeemed will be indwelt by God throughout eternity, but the wicked are not so indwelt, but are found to be outside of God, rather than abiding in God. And since they are found outside of God, they are found outside of eternal life.

How then are the wicked to have eternal existence?

As shown, the words, of Revelation 20:10, "even for ever and ever", are Koine Greek, "εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων", which when seen in their context, locally and globally through the scripture [KJB], do not always mean eternal, but can mean limited in time, and can even deal with distance, or even spacial ["world"].

Can an "αιων" [aiwn, aeon, in either time, distance or space] come to an end? Yes, even as Paul shows in Hebrews:

Hebrew 9:26 KJB - For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Hebrew 9:26 KJB - επει εδει αυτον πολλακις παθειν απο καταβολης κοσμου νυν δε απαξ επι συντελεια των αιωνων εις αθετησιν αμαρτιας δια της θυσιας αυτου πεφανερωται​

Notice, "end of the world [aeon]". Notice again:

Titus 2:12 KJB - Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Titus 2:12 KJB - παιδευουσα ημας ινα αρνησαμενοι την ασεβειαν και τας κοσμικας επιθυμιας σωφρονως και δικαιως και ευσεβως ζησωμεν εν τω νυν αιωνι​

Notice, "in this present world [aeon]", which indicates that there is an end to the current "world", or existence, and another "world" [aeon], or existence, to follow after it. Thus and "aeon" can come to an end, and is not necessarily eternal. See also "since the world began", "before this world", "this present evil world", "this world", in Matthew 12:32, Matthew 13:22, Matthew 13:39-40 (2), Matthew 13:49, Matthew 24:3, Matthew 28:20, Mark 4:19, Mark 10:30, Luke 1:70, Luke 16:8, Luke 18:30, Luke 20:34-35 (2), John 9:32, Acts 3:21, Acts 15:18, Romans 12:2, 1 Corinthians 1:20, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 (4), 1 Corinthians 3:18, 1 Corinthians 8:13, 1 Corinthians 10:11, 2 Corinthians 4:4, Galatians 1:4, Ephesians 1:21, Ephesians 3:9, Ephesians 3:21, Ephesians 6:12, 1 Timothy 6:17, 2 Timothy 4:10, Tit 2:12, Hebrews 6:5, Hebrews 9:26; and etc. We now see that "aeon's" can begin, and end, and are not always ongoing without ceasing, and thus context always determines the length, distance, existence, etc.

Notice how the Bible uses the word "for ever":

Jonah 2:6 KJB - I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
Jonah 2:6 (2:7) (so-called) LXX - κατέβην εἰς γῆν, ἧς οἱ μοχλοὶ αὐτῆς κάτοχοι αἰώνιοι, καὶ ἀναβήτω φθορὰ ζωῆς μου, κύριε ὁ θεός μου.​

In both distance and time, it is impossible for the word "for ever" in Jonah to be eternal, or without end. Not only does earth have limited space [thus "ends of the earth", dry land is earth, see Genesis 1], but Jonah was only 3 days and 3 nights, timewise, in the belly:

Jonah 1:17 KJB - Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.​

Therefore, in either case, "for ever" is limited, in this instance, in distance and time.

In Deuteronomy 23:3 KJB, “forever” means 10 generations. It can also mean “as long as he lives,” or “to death.”; thus see 1 Samuel 1:22, 28; Exodus 21:6; Psalm 48:14 KJB.

The redeemed will have eternal life, because Jesus is eternal life, but the wicked will never have eternal existence:

Psalms 21:4 KJB - He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever and ever.

Ecclesiastes 8:13 KJB - But it shall not be well with the wicked, neither shall he prolong his days, which are as a shadow; because he feareth not before God.​

Iniquity must be purged and cleansed from the universe, and it will not happen until the wicked cease to be:

Isaiah 22:14 KJB - And it was revealed in mine ears by the LORD of hosts, Surely this iniquity shall not be purged from you till ye die, saith the Lord GOD of hosts.
Psalms 37:10 KJB - For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.​

When will these verses be fulfilled in your understanding:

Malachi 4:1 KJB - For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Malachi 4:3 KJB - And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
​

Days of Noah, Days of Lot (Sodom and Gomorrah):

Did the global flood of Noah kill all of the finally impentient outside of the Ark in one single instant of time?, or was there not rather various lengths of time, and degrees of injuries sustained throughout, that people continued to receive and live through, until all were finally destroyed from the face of the earth? with some instantly perishing, and others taking days to finally die either by beast, other men attempting to escape their doom fighting for the highest ground, starvation, thirst, hurling and heaving earth, or finally drown beneath the black depths ...

In 2 Peter 2:5 [see also 2 Peter 3:6] KJB, Peter says "flood upon the world", yet in the Koine Greek, it is "κατακλυσμον κοσμω", a 'cosmic cataclysm'. Such devastation and destruction as has never been known, and will never again be known [by water], but will again be by fire. If one were to read Genesis 7-8 KJB carefully they will see that it took some time for all [human-kind] outside of the ark to finally perish, and not all perished at the same time. The wages for sin is death, even from Genesis 2:17 KJB, but the final punishment, being death, is preceded by terrors, anguish, torment, all limited and depending upon the deeds done in the body [Romans 2:6; jude 1:15 KJB], as it is written.

So to die of thirst in such a cataclysm takes several days, while being crushed by a large piece of exploded land, or tree, or debris is near instantaneous. Each is just. Each received the length of time in torment, suffering, that was due, and both received the final end, death.

The "punishment" is indeed "eternal". For the "wages of sin is death", that being the "second death".

The "torment", or the "suffering" unto that death, is limited. The suffering or torment is not eternal, as I have shown in the case of Jesus Christ, who took upon Himself the sins of the whole world. His suffering though tremendous, more than any other could endure [for just our own sins would crush us], and yet, it was limited. Hence the phrase, "once suffered", meaning it is in the past, and is over and done with, thus it was limited in time.

While I can certainly agree that when the flood happened that people fled in terror and some took a period of time to die since drowning isn't instant death it takes a little while to die by drowning. People probably died killing each other to save their family for the highest ground too which means people were physically harmed therefore in physical pain before they died which could have taken minutes or hours or even instantly. I don't agree with taking that though and saying people have consciousness after death and are literally tortured by fire for a period of time or eternity. However those people died when the flood happened when they died they were dead, they're not feeling nothing after death. No thoughts no feelings such as pain or pleasure. No rejoicing or hatred. For the dead, they cease to exist. The only place a person exist after death is if the True God judges you worthy of a resurrection then you are in his memory therefore alive as far as the True God is concerned. That doesn't mean you have consciousness it just means God will remember those in his memory when the Resurrection begins.

 

[Getitright]

And are you rejecting the words of the the Lord Jesus Christ who created Hades and Hell? The only one who knows the condition of the unsaved dead is God Himself.

No, I just gave an explanation of the parable. But, we still have no evidence that dead people can feel pain.

 

[Getitright]

When God judges people as not worthy of life and he destroys them, like during the flood and at Sodom and Gomorrah and when he destroys them at Armageddon doesn't God make sure these people have a chance to change and avoid destruction before he acts? Noah while building that ark told the people of his day what God was going to do, today before armmageddon Gods servants are telling the world we are living in the last days, meaning we're living in the second presence of Jesus Christ. If people refuse to believe that truth it's not because God didn't tell and warn them it's because they refuse to believe it and that's on them, not God. The point is when God judges them unworthy of life isn't that an eternal judgement or are you saying that God didn't give them a fair chance when they were living. I believe God will give everyone a chance at external life. But I also believe that there will be those that will and have gone too far and will not ever be given eternal life, so will always remain nonexistent. I believe Satan and his demons are some of these. So are Adam and Eve. I also believe it includes those God destroyed in the flood and at Sodom and Gomorrah and I believe it will include those destroyed at armmageddon. I honestly don't believe these people that God judges and destroys
will ever live again. There's no difference between the righteous and unrighteous except that the righteous go through all the temptations of the unrighteous but choose to believe the truth and live by faith while the unrighteous choose to believe a lie and not live by faith. Not only that but the unrighteous persecute Gods servants by saying they are liars and worshippers of Satan by agreeing with the killing of the True Gods Prophets and servants of the True God. By saying such things about the righteous they are saying not only this about the Son of God Jesus Christ but also about his father and God whose name is YHWH(JEHOVAH/ YAHWEH). I don't think the unrighteous get a better chance than the righteous. I believe all imperfect people are the same. If imperfect people while alive on Earth can believe God and live by faith then that means every imperfect person can choose to do that. If a person chooses not to believe the truth and live by faith then that's their fault, they can't blame no one but themselves because the righteous went through and are going through the same temptations.

I'm not sure what your question is. I believe all who die are dead, all will be resurrected, the unrighteous will be cast into the Lake of Fire and burned up. They cease to exist.

 

[Getitright]

No, I just gave an explanation of the parable. But if God Himself is the only one who knows the state of the unsaved dead, why did you say I was wrong when I said the dead cannot feel pain? You would have no way to know if only God knows.

But, we still have no evidence that dead people can feel pain.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

I'm not sure what your question is. I believe all who die are dead, all will be resurrected, the unrighteous will be cast into the Lake of Fire and burned up. They cease to exist.

I'm asking you that when God destroys someone not worthy of life like he did when he judged and destroyed people at the time of the flood or at Sodom and Gomorrah or when he judges and destroys them at armmageddon don't you think that judgement to be final? Is there something wrong with God's judgement when he is the one who judged these people not worthy of life? I understand that there is going to be a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous, the scriptures show us that, but I don't think that those that God has already judged as not worthy of life to be in that resurrection. So the unrighteous that are resurrected must be those that God has judged worthy of a resurrection. Resurrection means resurrected back to life. Why would God give the unrighteous life if God judged them unworthy of life? I don't believe God destroys or put people to death without judging rather or not they deserved to be destroyed or put to death.

 

[Giuliano]

so God is going to save us from our sins than send us to hell because we are not good enough... really.

You seem to be trying to get around the idea of being judged by deeds.

We are not "saved" from our sins if we are still sinning. We are still behaving like brute beasts if we are unkind to others. If we want to be saved from our sins, we need to want to stop sinning. Then we can start doing good deeds and God will reward us for those when we are judged by our works.

We cannot keep sinning against our fellow man and wanting to get Jesus to make it okay for us. We must be willing to obey the Golden Rule.

 

[ReChoired]

While I can certainly agree that when the flood happened that people fled in terror and some took a period of time to die since drowning isn't instant death it takes a little while to die by drowning. People probably died killing each other to save their family for the highest ground too which means people were physically harmed therefore in physical pain before they died which could have taken minutes or hours or even instantly. I don't agree with taking that though and saying people have consciousness after death and are literally tortured by fire for a period of time or eternity. However those people died when the flood happened when they died they were dead, they're not feeling nothing after death. No thoughts no feelings such as pain or pleasure. No rejoicing or hatred. For the dead, they cease to exist. The only place a person exist after death is if the True God judges you worthy of a resurrection then you are in his memory therefore alive as far as the True God is concerned. That doesn't mean you have consciousness it just means God will remember those in his memory when the Resurrection begins.

Yes Barney Bright, I am not saying that "torment" exists in death for the person which died ('first death'). My reply was in regards the wicked resurrected in the second great resurrection, which takes place at the end of the 1,000 years, who then suffer in the lake of fire, unto the second death.

 

[mjrhealth]

You seem to be trying to get around the idea of being judged by deeds.

We are not "saved" from our sins if we are still sinning. We are still behaving like brute beasts if we are unkind to others. If we want to be saved from our sins, we need to want to stop sinning. Then we can start doing good deeds and God will reward us for those when we are judged by our works.

We cannot keep sinning against our fellow man and wanting to get Jesus to make it okay for us. We must be willing to obey the Golden Rule.

This bit

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

and this bit

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

because

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

but is seems people would rather this

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

If you would rather that than Grace go for it...