Revelation 11-the measure of the temple

[Heart2Soul]

in the Name of Jesus thank you. if what I say may not agree with what someone else say then let the Spirit desern what is said of Both. for we all should "TEST" the spirit by the Spirit. it's just that easy. for God is not the author of confusion.

PICJAG.

Same here...I am not the authority of scripture...the Holy Spirit is.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Iron sharpeneth iron, right?

Yes, @farouk it does and we should continually remind ourselves of this!

 

[farouk]

Yes, @farouk it does and we should continually remind ourselves of this!

Indeed; we need to encourage one another...

 

[farouk]

Same here...I am not the authority of scripture...the Holy Spirit is.

He will 'lead you into all truth'.

 

[Heart2Soul]

He will 'lead you into all truth'.

Amen....if we will be humble to allow Him to lead us into that truth....this is one of the dangers of being church bench warmers and not stewards of His Word...they don't study the Word they simply attend church services and hear the sermon and go home...
What does scripture say about hearing the truth preached? Immediately after hearing it Satan comes to steal it out of our hearts.

 

[Earburner]

This is COMPLETELY FALSE.

There will indeed by a visible, physical AND spiritual, redeemed and restored, nation (or kingdom) of Israel UNDER CHRIST after His Second Coming. The twelve tribes will be settled in Greater Israel (from the Nile to the Euphrates), and there will be a fourth and ultimate temple in Jerusalem.

When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. (Acts 1:6,7)

ROMANS 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

When God removed the KoG from physical Israel, and gave it to another nation (born again Saints- 1 Peter 2:9), ALL the promises of God to Israel, except one, became dysfunctional 100%.

 

[Enoch111]

Try this out, and please leave a comment:
Luke 1[13] But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias:...
[17] And he [John] shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias [Elijah], to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Please note that the angel was careful to say "in the spirit and power of Elijah" and NOT "as an incarnation of Elijah". So what exactly did that mean? Both Elijah and John were fearless in exposing the sins of their people and the sins of their kings. Both were filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the Word of God boldly. There were other similarities between these two prophets.

At the same time, when John the Baptist was asked specifically if he was Elijah, this was his response -- "I am not Elijah":
JOHN 1
19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias [Elijah]? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.

Even though many repented and were baptized by John, the religious leaders refused to repent. And then John was beheaded at the command of Herod for speak out against him and his unlawful wife.

But the original Elijah is guaranteed to come to earth before the Day of the LORD (the Great Tribulation), therefore he does appear on earth during the 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation (Rev 11): Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. (Malachi 4:5,6)

The day of the LORD is a time of severe judgments on the earth, and it will be triggered by the Abomination of Desolation (since the earth will be desolated at that time): For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch... A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.(Malachi 4:1; Joel 2:3)

 

[Earburner]

6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.
Jesus spoke of it in Rev. 3[7] And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
Who has the key of David, that opens and shuts?

Ans. Jesus! Only He grants us entrance in to the KoG, as well as shutting out those who would climb up some other way!
As for "rain" , that is in reference to the giving of God's free Gift of His Holy Spirit.


How can they be John the Baptist and Jesus?

 

[Earburner]

Oopps in the above. I didn't see your closed quote.

Jesus spoke of it in Rev. 3[7] And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

Who has the key of David, that opens and shuts?
Ans. Jesus! Only He grants us entrance in to the KoG, as well as shutting out those who would climb up some other way!
As for "rain" , that is in reference to the giving of God's free Gift of His Holy Spirit.

 

[Enoch111]

When God removed the KoG from physical Israel, and gave it to another nation (born again Saints- 1 Peter 2:9), ALL the promises of God to Israel, except one, became dysfunctional 100%.

As I already pointed out with Scripture this is COMPLETELY FALSE. And Paul refuted your assumption about the promises of God to Israel being nullified: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance [reversal].

"The fathers" here are Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The Abrahamic Covenant was made to all three, and it included the kingdom of Israel with the twelve tribes, and the land of Israel as an everlasting possession.

 

[Giuliano]

Please note that the angel was careful to say "in the spirit and power of Elijah" and NOT "as an incarnation of Elijah". So what exactly did that mean? Both Elijah and John were fearless in exposing the sins of their people and the sins of their kings. Both were filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the Word of God boldly. There were other similarities between these two prophets.

At the same time, when John the Baptist was asked specifically if he was Elijah, this was his response -- "I am not Elijah":
JOHN 1
19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias [Elijah]? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.

Even though many repented and were baptized by John, the religious leaders refused to repent. And then John was beheaded at the command of Herod for speak out against him and his unlawful wife.

But the original Elijah is guaranteed to come to earth before the Day of the LORD (the Great Tribulation), therefore he does appear on earth during the 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation (Rev 11): Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. (Malachi 4:5,6)

The day of the LORD is a time of severe judgments on the earth, and it will be triggered by the Abomination of Desolation (since the earth will be desolated at that time): For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch... A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.(Malachi 4:1; Joel 2:3)

Perhaps John didn't remember he was Elijah. Jesus said he was.

Matthew 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

John got his job done, that was enough. The world is a treacherous place. Prophets don't know everything. It is enough if they do what they're supposed to. Remember too how John began to doubt in prison if Jesus was Messiah?

Luke 7:20 When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?

 

[ScottA]

As I already pointed out with Scripture this is COMPLETELY FALSE. And Paul refuted your assumption about the promises of God to Israel being nullified: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance [reversal].

"The fathers" here are Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The Abrahamic Covenant was made to all three, and it included the kingdom of Israel with the twelve tribes, and the land of Israel as an everlasting possession.

How then is Jesus the "Last" of the Jews/Israel, last under the Abrahamic Covenant, if it was not "finished" with that generation to whom He spoke?

(Rhetorical)

But indeed, "It is finished." Which means that He was indeed the Last, indeed it is finished, and indeed all the promises to Israel have been fulfilled...just as He said He came to do.

 

[CharismaticLady]

@Earburner

what about the plagues

 

[101G]

I have seen some good thoughts form all of the posters of this topic. this is good to hear from all sides. as the scriptures states,
1 Thessalonians 5:18 "In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

1 Thessalonians 5:19 "Quench not the Spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:20 "Despise not prophesyings.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

1 Thessalonians 5:22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil.

these are very good markers to go by. but I would like to point to one verse in particular, 1 Thessalonians 5:19 "Quench not the Spirit".

as said, some don't learn as fast as others. those who do must bare with other who don't. I myself is on a learn curb that might not be on the fast track. but like some of us, I'm sure they want mind me calling their names, Amadeus, Helen, Scott, and 101G just have been at it a good little while, (smile),and I'm sure other too. If I missed anyone please charge it to my head and not my heart. I just know these better than others.

but we all are learning. and my desire is that we all "LEARN" something that we didn't know before, I know I have. my stand is this. "I'm going to ask question if I don't know. and if I'm not too sure about somthing someone posted, I'll use a statement like this, "Not saying that you're right or wrong" but consider this. this is better than saying straight out... "You're wrong". by doing it this way people feel less defensive and will speak more on the subject. one will be suprise how much one knows if not put on the defensive.

so let's not "Quench" the Spirit, but consider what other think and might say.

PICJAG.

 

[Earburner]

As I already pointed out with Scripture this is COMPLETELY FALSE. And Paul refuted your assumption about the promises of God to Israel being nullified: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance [reversal].

Thank you for pointing out, of what I hinted at, as being the one promise left for Israel: Jesus as being NOW their Savior and Messiah, and not hrough some false hope of a "millennium" on earth: John 3:16-18.
Yes! The election has obtained the Righteousness of God through faith in Jesus!!
But now, you are promoting that the Jews will obtain it through the blood of a Red Heifer, as a sacrifice for sin???
That would be an abomination to God the Father AND God the Son!!

Remember:
Acts 10[34] Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

 

[101G]

6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.

How can they be John the Baptist and Jesus?

Maybe I can help you out. let's reason, why do you think they are not the two witness. put what you understand on the table, and do what God almighty say do, Isaiah 1:18 "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool".

so tell us why you don't believe that they are not the two witness.

I'll be looking for your response

PICJAG

 

[Heart2Soul]

Please note that the angel was careful to say "in the spirit and power of Elijah" and NOT "as an incarnation of Elijah". So what exactly did that mean? Both Elijah and John were fearless in exposing the sins of their people and the sins of their kings. Both were filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the Word of God boldly. There were other similarities between these two prophets.

At the same time, when John the Baptist was asked specifically if he was Elijah, this was his response -- "I am not Elijah":
JOHN 1
19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias [Elijah]? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.

Even though many repented and were baptized by John, the religious leaders refused to repent. And then John was beheaded at the command of Herod for speak out against him and his unlawful wife.

But the original Elijah is guaranteed to come to earth before the Day of the LORD (the Great Tribulation), therefore he does appear on earth during the 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation (Rev 11): Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. (Malachi 4:5,6)

The day of the LORD is a time of severe judgments on the earth, and it will be triggered by the Abomination of Desolation (since the earth will be desolated at that time): For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch... A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.(Malachi 4:1; Joel 2:3)

Hi @Enoch111....there is another scripture that references the Day of the Lord....
Acts 2:14-21
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


1. This was Peter talking to the Judaean's.......same wonders in heaven, signs in the earth, blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke....etc....

You wrote: "But the original Elijah is guaranteed to come to earth before the Day of the LORD (the Great Tribulation)" and then supplied scripture to support it: Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. (Malachi 4:5,6)

2. Then the next point you wrote: "The day of the LORD is a time of severe judgments on the earth, and it will be triggered by the Abomination of Desolation (since the earth will be desolated at that time)" and supplied scripture to support it: For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch... A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.(Malachi 4:1; Joel 2:3)

These are 2 separate events...IMHO....the first one suggests a restoration of the relationship of the father-child relationship
the second one suggests the Great Tribulation....
So you have taken 2 separate scriptures and blended them into one concept and it isn't so....this is how taking a verse out of context can create error in interpretation.

Here is the entire Chapter 4 of Malachi:
Malachi 4 King James Version (KJV)
4 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Maybe I can help you out. let's reason, why do you think they are not the two witness. put what you understand on the table, and do what God almighty say do, Isaiah 1:18 "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool".

so tell us why you don't believe that they are not the two witness.

I'll be looking for your response

PICJAG

First, I would like to know if you are full preterist, or partial preterist?

 

[Heart2Soul]

First, I would like to know if you are full preterist, or partial preterist?

Does this change the meaning of the scripture? or how you answer it? I don't understand the relevance.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Summary and Conclusion of Rev 11 in regards to the measurement of the temple:

Submitted by:
@101G: you do what is measured right....... Revelation 11:1 "And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein".
the temple of God is his people, 1 Corinthians 3:16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?".

in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old".

@amadeus: The Tabernacle in the wilderness had the Holiest of Holies in the very center behind the 2nd veil; and it had the Holy Place behind the 1st veil; and it had the Outer Court. The tents and dwelling places and working place of the people were outside the enclosure which enclosed all three.
When a person comes to God and repents that first time he enters the Outer Court as an unclean beast. Some people never move closer to God than this and like the natural children of Israel they need to come back again and again often to re-repent for the same sins. Considering what repentance means this means they never advanced at all. To repent means they are to have changed. But either they lied at the first or they simply backslid falling into exactly the same errors again. As we see the end result of most of them, dying in the wilderness, we see that this is a problem.

Consider the 1st veil, where only the priests entered regularly. This is where the Holy Ghost goes to work on hearts to eventually convert them from an unclean beast to a clean beast. Of course to go behind the 2nd veil into the Holiest of Holies [only High Priest entered once a year] a person must have completely killed his beasts.

Don't worry about the two inner places [2nd and 3rd heavens?] in relation to your question. Rather consider all of the people who attend churches and like the natural Israelites of old repeatedly go through the same steps of repenting and backsliding and back again. They take actions with no real increase, no real closer approach to God. How does that fit into the scenario of Revelation 11 depicted in your OP...?

Are they not still Gentiles, Heathens, unclean beasts who have not even killed anything of their old nature, the old man mentioned by Apostle Paul? Rather they have trampled and are trampling that place, that 1st heaven instead of preparing themselves for eventually entry into 2nd heaven and hopefully finally 3rd heaven [3 heavens equal to 3 parts within tabernacle and 3 levels of Ark built by Noah.]

@ScottA: It's all connected.
The outer court is akin even to outer darkness. But in this case it refers to those things which the temple represents, to the body made manifest in the creation; which then is divided in the midst (42/42, 3.5/3.5, the dead in Christ/the living in Christ) between the first Adam and the Last Adam, where the sacrifice was taken away. The same is "a time, times, and half a time."
The outer court is given to the nations...that is to the people, those created, even the first Adam and the Last Adam: "to live is Christ." But from among those of the first Adam one nation/people were chosen to be given the promise, wherein is the holy of holies, whom is the Christ, and God, the First and the Last. His body was given to the gentiles, without measure. Those "who are alive and remain" in the world are His body, those who reign with Him until the end of the times of the gentiles.

@Base12:In the Tabernacle in the Wilderness, the Outer Court contained two main items of significance...
1) Brazen Laver
2) Brazen Altar
If we were to look into the deeper meanings of said items, we would find that they represent a type of dichotomy.
The Brazen Laver would represent the Sea of Glass while the Brazen Altar would represent the Lake of Fire.
Personally, I've always viewed Outer Darkness, and those that are 'bundled' in it, as a temporary storage area before burning.
This scenario would fit in with the Brazen Altar and the 'Slaughter Tables' of sacrifices that wait to be burned.
Thus, the Brazen Laver/Sea of Glass are the Wheat (Saved) that are to be cleaned while the Brazen Altar/Lake of Fire are the Tares (Unsaved) that are to be burned.


Continued on next post.....