The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Truther

Well-Known Member
Dec 2, 2019
10,295
1,479
113
62
Lodi
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'd be interested in your answer to this question.
My answer is , God gives us the ability to repent, but we must do the work. Repentance is far tougher than anything we would ever do towards God. It literally took me months to get to the place of wanting to be saved and make changes towards living for God. Lots to give up.
 

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I don't believe that real repentance is something that we work towards, or that requires work.

It is something that is granted to us by the Lord (2 Timothy 2:25-26).

It is defined as a change of mind concerning sin...a 180-degree turn away from sin and towards righteousness.

This is not accomplished through psychological means or therapy. It is a work of the Holy Spirit within a person's heart.

It normally happens in a moment of time.
 

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
So much for this, huh?....

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Well many have tried and failed dismally.
 

Ernest T. Bass

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2014
1,845
616
113
out in the woods
Did you know repentance is a work?

Matthew 12:41 the Ninevites repented.
Jonah 3 Nineveh repented in sackcloth and verse 10 says "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way (repented); and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

God saw works and that work was repentance. In like manner, Mark 2:5 says " Jesus saw their faith". What was it Jesus saw that is called "faith"? The WORK the men did in removing the roof and lowering the sick man on a bed down to Jesus.

Both repentance and faith are works that can be seen.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Truther

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I disagree for the fact that those who continue in disobedience/rebellion/unrighteousness will be lost and the fact the Bible says obedience to God's will does say.

If faith is an attitude of obedience, I fail to see how someone who has true faith is going to continue in disobedience.

Matthew 12:41 the Ninevites repented.
Jonah 3 Nineveh repented in sackcloth and verse 10 says "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way (repented); and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

God saw works and that work was repentance. In like manner, Mark 2:5 says " Jesus saw their faith". What was it Jesus saw that is called "faith"? The WORK the men did in removing the roof and lowering the sick man on a bed down to Jesus.

Both repentance and faith are works that can be seen.

Both repentance and faith will normally produce works that can be seen.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If faith is an attitude of obedience, I fail to see how someone who has true faith is going to continue in disobedience.

Both repentance and faith will normally produce works that can be seen.
Faith isn’t belief. Belief is only ONE component of faith. James 2:19 tells us that even the DEMONS believe the truth about God. If all you have is belief – then you’re NO better off than they are.

TRUE Faith = Belief + Works (Obedience).

Jesus illustrates this in Matt. 7:21 when He said:
Matt. 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ONLY THE ONE WHO DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER in heaven.


This is why Paul calls us “Co-Workers “ (sunergos) with God (1 Cor. 3:9, 2 Cor. 6:1).
This is also why he wrote:
Gal. 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.
 

Truther

Well-Known Member
Dec 2, 2019
10,295
1,479
113
62
Lodi
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Faith isn’t belief. Belief is only ONE component of faith. James 2:19 tells us that even the DEMONS believe the truth about God. If all you have is belief – then you’re NO better off than they are.

TRUE Faith = Belief + Works (Obedience).

Jesus illustrates this in Matt. 7:21 when He said:
Matt. 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ONLY THE ONE WHO DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER in heaven.


This is why Paul calls us “Co-Workers “ (sunergos) with God (1 Cor. 3:9, 2 Cor. 6:1).
This is also why he wrote:
Gal. 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.
Rather he...believeth....baptized....saved.

Not
Infant....baptized....saved.

Or this
Believeth...saved....baptized.
 

Ezra

Well-Known Member
Dec 27, 2018
2,564
1,314
113
62
Missouri
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You skipped Acts completely. Those passages are not for sinners, but saints. This is mail theft in progress.
sorry i omitted acts i know since your oneness your let down . i love the book of acts from romans on to the end is the continued of acts.if i was to guess acts 2:38 or acts 4:12
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Rather he...believeth....baptized....saved.

Not
Infant....baptized....saved.

Or this
Believeth...saved....baptized.
Biblical teaching comes to us in TWO ways:
Explicitly
Implicitly

Some explicit teachings include Christ’s Death for the propitiation of sins and Resurrection.

Infant Baptism is an implicit teaching. The ENTIRE households of Cornelius, the Philipian Jailer and Stephanas were baptized.
“Entire” households had people of ALL ages – especially in the 1st century – both young and old – and yes, even infants.

The writings of the Early Church testify to the fact that Infant Baptism was an APOSTOLIC teaching and practice. In fact – they ONLY things they disagreed on was WHEN to baptize them:
Immediately? A few days after birth? 8 days after birth?

Irenaeus
He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an INFANT for INFANTS, sanctifying INFANTS; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).


Hippolytus
Where there is no scarcity of water the stream shall flow through the baptismal font or pour into it from above; but if water is scarce, whether on a constant condition or on occasion, then use whatever water is available. Let them remove their clothing. BAPTIZE FIRST THE CHILDREN, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D.215]).

Origen
The Church received from the APOSTLES the tradition of giving baptism even to INFANTS. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine sacraments, knew there is in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

Cyprian
As to what pertains to the case of INFANTS: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born" (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).

Augustine
It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an INFANTS to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the INFANT so presented is reborn. For it is not written, "Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents" or "by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him," but, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit." The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).

 

Ernest T. Bass

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2014
1,845
616
113
out in the woods
If faith is an attitude of obedience, I fail to see how someone who has true faith is going to continue in disobedience.



Both repentance and faith will normally produce works that can be seen.
One remains lost as long as one continues in disobedience. The only solution of disobedience and being lost is obedience to be saved.

Repentance and faith are forms of obedience for they certainly are not disobedience. Therefore obedience (faith, repentance) must occur before salvation...."obedience unto righteousness".

Again, no example of a person continuing in disobedience that was justified.
 

Truther

Well-Known Member
Dec 2, 2019
10,295
1,479
113
62
Lodi
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Biblical teaching comes to us in TWO ways:
Explicitly
Implicitly

Some explicit teachings include Christ’s Death for the propitiation of sins and Resurrection.

Infant Baptism is an implicit teaching. The ENTIRE households of Cornelius, the Philipian Jailer and Stephanas were baptized.
“Entire” households had people of ALL ages – especially in the 1st century – both young and old – and yes, even infants.

The writings of the Early Church testify to the fact that Infant Baptism was an APOSTOLIC teaching and practice. In fact – they ONLY things they disagreed on was WHEN to baptize them:
Immediately? A few days after birth? 8 days after birth?

Irenaeus
He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an INFANT for INFANTS, sanctifying INFANTS; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).


Hippolytus
Where there is no scarcity of water the stream shall flow through the baptismal font or pour into it from above; but if water is scarce, whether on a constant condition or on occasion, then use whatever water is available. Let them remove their clothing. BAPTIZE FIRST THE CHILDREN, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D.215]).

Origen
The Church received from the APOSTLES the tradition of giving baptism even to INFANTS. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine sacraments, knew there is in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

Cyprian
As to what pertains to the case of INFANTS: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born" (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).

Augustine
It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an INFANTS to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the INFANT so presented is reborn. For it is not written, "Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents" or "by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him," but, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit." The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).
Bible

Repent and be baptized...

Believeth and is baptized....

I choose the Bible over the kooks
 

Truther

Well-Known Member
Dec 2, 2019
10,295
1,479
113
62
Lodi
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
to some degree to produce fruit you have to be connected to the true vine
Those that have the Holy Ghost bear the fruit of it per Gal 5.
Repentance is not a fruit of the Spirit, but an allowance by God
 

Truther

Well-Known Member
Dec 2, 2019
10,295
1,479
113
62
Lodi
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
sorry i omitted acts i know since your oneness your let down . i love the book of acts from romans on to the end is the continued of acts.if i was to guess acts 2:38 or acts 4:12
Well yes, It is all about Acts. Acts is the foundation of a Christian. Without Acts 2:38, there is no foundation.
Acts skippers have an upside down building, which brings mass confusion.
I never point sinners to the Epistles, only saints.
Case in point...try reading 1Cor 14 to a sinner some time. Yikes.