...do you think you were created at conception or before?
Since all of us here have had previous lives, the answer should be obvious. We were created before.
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...do you think you were created at conception or before?
A very good question and one that gives us insight to reality. A lot depends on your version of creation. Mine is that mankind was created approx 6,000 years ago. We know that Satan was around at that time as he tempted Eve so that means he was there before they were.
Having said that I am not saying that the earth was created 6,000 years ago because the scriptures said that originally the earth was without form and void. It does not tell how long that was for, so the earth could have been created without form and void a million years ago; 10 million years; a hundred million years etc. etc. Any data in this respect is only conjecture, not facts.
Therefore we can only assume that Satan turned after the earth was created and before Adam was born and prior to that he was one of God's top three angels.
I think that so many people believe that God can't make a flesh and bone creature such as a human who can think, feel, and believe. Such People think that he had to put something else in humans that separates at death that does all this thinking, feeling, and believing. Well I think those people that believe that, under estimate the way God has created our good old flesh and bone body, especially the brain part.
I honestly don't think God would say he hates someone unless they had done something to make him feel that way about them. Plus you have yet to show me where in Genesis when the twins were struggling in Rebekah womb that God said he loved Jacob and hated Esau.
You're correct Barney. if they get an old english dictionary for these old English words it helps sometimes..I don't know exactly the point you're trying to make here. The word translated replenish doesn't mean refill as some claim. I don't know if that was what you were trying to state or not.
I must disagree with that assessment, 1 Corinthians 15:45 "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit".Notwithstanding, I do not believe Adam and Eve were the first beings to inhabit planet earth, and whatever happened back there, suggests a punishment wherein the earth became formless and void.
I don't think it's a matter of underestimating God, or not thinking he could just create a being such as you suggest. But it seems to me that he has created us to be both flesh and spirit. And that should not be a bad thing, or a denigration of God's power. The idea that we 'separate' at death is one that scripture supports. Paul tells us that as soon as he dies, he expects to be with Christ. Christ himself tells the thief on the cross that he would, that day, be in paradise. I'm fairly certain in both cases, the thief, and Paul, when he died, that their bodies lay somewhere here on earth still, silent and cold. And yet we have the expectation that they themselves were 'in paradise', 'with the Lord'. But this is not our final hope. Paul also tells us that this separation was NOT how God designed us to be! We were designed to be beings with flesh. That is why our hope is on Christ's return. It's because we know that when he does all those still, silent and cold 'bodies' who sleep in the dust of the earth, will be awoken and rejuvenated. Just as Christ was the firstfruits of the resurrection, so to shall we experience this resurrection; our bodies will be restored to us in health, sin free, just as they ought to have been before the fall. Thus God's plan for us will be ultimately fulfilled. Body and Spirit one, all of our being praising and glorifying God!
The "without form, and void" KJV phrase is misleading. It's just a way the translators chose to interpret Hebrew tohuw va bohuw. If you look up Hebrew tohuw in how it is used in other KJV Scripture, you'll find that in the majority of cases it's about something that was once in a good condition that goes into a bad condition. Here's another example of the phrase...
Jer 4:23-28
23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by His fierce anger.
27 For thus hath the LORD said, "The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it."
KJV
Notice that above "without form, and void" case was about an existing earth whose mountains trembled and its hills moved lightly, and it had birds already that fled, and cities that were broken down at God's fierce anger. It is talking about the whole land (earth) becoming desolate.
God gave that Jeremiah 4 example there because Judah in Jerusalem had become rebellious, turning away from Him, and He was getting ready to bring a destruction upon Jerusalem then (by the king of Babylon). He gave these 23-28 verses as a reminder of what He did before upon this earth, like a warning.
So is that Scripture a link to the "without form, and void" of Genesis 1:2? Yes, I believe so. There's other pointers in Genesis 1 to that very fact, and also within Paul's Epistles about God having placed His creation in bondage to vanity during this present world. In reality, there is probably a huge unknown amount of time that had passed between God's original perfect (not in bondage) creation at Genesis 1:1, and Genesis 1:2 when the earth is seen with waters covering all its surface.
Since all of us here have had previous lives, the answer should be obvious. We were created before.
I disagree that the scriptures support that we separate at death, the thief you're talking about that died with Jesus, wasn't in paradise that day because Jesus was dead for three days or do you deny that? about Paul i need you to show me the scripture you get that from.
It seems that your theology is that Scripture is a lie, and that Jesus is a liar!!
I can't imagine what kind of anti-God, anti-Scriptural cult you embrace, but it is totally foreign to authentic Christianity.
Well, yes, it would be a bad thing if it were a lie. But there is enough biblical proof to suggest it is not. And it is most certainly not calling God a liar if it comes from his word. I'll attempt to show below how I believe that:It is a bad thing when it's a lie. You see people believing there is something in us that separates at death that thinks, believes and feels is just a twist of the lie the serpent told Eve in the garden of Eden, "you will not die." Therefore you're calling God a liar.
I disagree that the scriptures support that we separate at death, the thief you're talking about that died with Jesus, wasn't in paradise that day because Jesus was dead for three days or do you deny that?
Plus when Jesus was resurrected he didn't go back into heaven for 40 days. Do you deny that? Scriptures show us that Jesus was resurrected into heaven before any other man, so how was that thief in paradise on that day he died?
I think that is stretching, just a bit. But let's say you're right. Let's say that we discard that conversation with the thief. Is there enough in scripture to still leave us with the idea that one still can expect to see our Lord as soon as we die? I believe there is.Too many people have this belief concerning that thief because of a comma someone placed in that particular Scripture, but originally the scriptures didn't have commas. The way that Scripture should be is, " Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise." It shouldn't be, " Truly I tell you, today you will be in paradise." As for what you said about Paul i need you to show me the scripture you get that from.
The word resurrection means standing up from death or rising from the dead. So basically you're being resurrected back to life. However you're saying the scriptures say that we continue living because you say the scriptures say that we have something that thinks, feels, believes and separates at death and goes somewhere like paradise. Death is the opposite of life. Death= no thinking, no feelings, no believing because you have no consciousness. Life= you do feel, think and believe because you do have consciousness.
Well, yes, it would be a bad thing if it were a lie. But there is enough biblical proof to suggest it is not. And it is most certainly not calling God a liar if it comes from his word. I'll attempt to show below how I believe that:
Ha. Thank you, but I would say knowledgeable enough to know I don't know enough. So often I come across something and say, 'I haven't even heard of that! How have I not even heard that mentioned before?!' I suspect that's what God will be doing for the rest of eternity for us, and I don't mind, learning new things, when they're new things of God, are just cool, don't you think??Naomi, I loved your response!! You are right on the mark with everything you have presented. You are obviously a very knowledgeable and sincere student of Scripture.
You are denying Scripture. Jesus was in hades parts of three days after his sacrifice. Then after he was resurrected he didn't go into heaven until 40 days. You're the one who's denying the death and resurrection of Jesus not me. As I said Jesus was dead for three days after his sacrifice, then he was resurrected but didn't go into heaven until 40 days.
Ha. Thank you, but I would say knowledgeable enough to know I don't know enough. So often I come across something and say, 'I haven't even heard of that! How have I not even heard that mentioned before?!' I suspect that's what God will be doing for the rest of eternity for us, and I don't mind, learning new things, when they're new things of God, are just cool, don't you think??
I turn 40 this year, so if God wills it, I'll have plenty more years here to keep learning more of him. Like you, I'm always surprised when passages you know so well can suddenly leap out with something new. That's the Holy Spirit at work, I suppose, and a wonderful reminder of his work in our lives. I honestly cannot imagine how people live without God; He is my foundation.That is the beauty of the way God designed Scripture. Unlike other books, Scripture has us going back every day in a never-ending quest to discover more about God. For me it has been 65 years of my unending quest to learn about God. And after all these years, I learn more about Him each and every day, as I study the message He has left for me.
I think you are attempting to degrade the omnipresent nature of the Most High!
The One you are attacking is the one proclaimed by the Prophet Isaiah to be the "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6
You seem to be driven by some sort of cult-driven hate agenda against the Most High and His power!! Only Satan and his deluded puppets would embrace the kind of evil you seem to be motivated to spread to the rest of the world !
The scriptures inform us that the real biblical comfort comes from the resurrection.I think the question needs to be; why would you wish to take this very real and biblical comfort away from people?