Always Spirit-Filled Or Unsaved?
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Sorry, brother. Not playing that game. All you had to do is give one scriptural reference again. Not that hard for you.
I gave you plenty and yet you treat it as if it doesn't really say that. Here it is again from the OP.
Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
Explain how you can apply that in according to your view because I don't see how you can.
Helen
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OK...here are some times whereby a person is cited in the bible in the NT with being filled with the Spirit...and both times they saw into heaven with supernatural sight.
Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Revelation 1:10
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
And then there are the exhortations to walk in the Spirit...which is something few have experienced in our time...
Being in the Spirit is to be where God is in Zion. That is what it means to ABIDE in Him. This is so far above what modern believers can understand.
Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Revelation 1:10
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
And then there are the exhortations to walk in the Spirit...which is something few have experienced in our time...
Being in the Spirit is to be where God is in Zion. That is what it means to ABIDE in Him. This is so far above what modern believers can understand.
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The new bottles are new hearts. A heart that is disposed to grace. The old heart was disposed to the law...but from an outward imposition. Grace brings the laws inwardly. This has nothing to do with being in the Spirit or not.
Actually, your quote from Revelation, Now, I don't question whether John was filled with the Spirit, but that's not what the text says. He was in the Spirit on the Lord's day. But you can't use this as some axiomatic passage to say that if you are filled with the Spirit you see into heaven.
Looking at the instance of Stephen, this says that "he" being filled with the Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus.
This is a narrative passage, and tells us what happened with that man at that time. This is not a statement that just anyone can take for themselves to say, Well then, being filled with the Spirit means I'll see into heaven too! That kind of thinking focuses the attention on seeking after some experience.
Now, I don't question whether or not God can allow someone to see into heaven. There are those who make that claim, although claiming it doesn't mean it's always true. But I know it was true for Stephen.
Acts 2
1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Here, the marvel seems to be in the speaking and hearing, no mention of the seeing.
Ephesians 5
17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Here, being filled with the Spirit is followed by speaking and singing and making melody, and giving thanks, submitting one to another in the fear of God.
I still say you need to get with a more spiritually mature group of people! I'm very blessed to have such good congregations around me, that I can fellowship with those who do walk in the Spirit!
Much love!
Nancy..it was the perfect way to put it!
"be being filled"...
Just to clarify...
In the case of Ephesians 5:18, remain filled with the fruit of temperance which is self control as opposed to being drunk with wine which is a work of the flesh.
It is because we are presently in this body of death is why we are always Spirit-filled so we can sow to the fruits of the Spirit by looking to Jesus Christ where our confidence rests in to finish His work in us.
Philippians 1: 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:...11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
Thank you for sharing, however, since it is written as "being full of the Holy Ghost" for how he was looking up into heaven, I do not believe it supports the practice of seeking to be filled with the Holy Ghost for him to do that. If Luke had not written that part in red, nobody would be able to figure out how Stephen was able to see that.
In context;
Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
John was explaining how he heard those things in Heaven in spite of being in the isle called Patmos on the Lord's day.
It wasn't like he was being filled with the Spirit and then this happened. He was just testifying to how he was in Heaven that day.
As opposed to walking in the flesh. Still does not teach seeking to be filled for us to do that.
John was explaining how he saw and heard in Heaven when he was at Patmos physically. Even Paul testified of John here without naming him.
2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Helen
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So, is that disagreeing. ?
If so, I disagree with your disagree
You write as if you are in some kind of ministry as it seems are at least half of the membership here.
If so, if it is any kind of pastoring and nurturing , there is a 'giving out' of the abundance of the "Christ within" to help, encourage , teach , comfort or whatever. The 2 am phone calls for help...slowly drain us.
There is so much burn-out in ministry because some never stop long enough to wait , and allow the infilling oil to flow down through and over.
They think the people are 'their sheep' and forget that they are God's.
To wait on God for His wisdom, anointing, empowerment, and insight for service is needful ...He flows in, so we can be a vessel for Him to flow out through us, if there is no waiting and no being filled regularly the ministry is neither fit for man or beast. There is no other way...with too many it is so obvious it has become 'their ministry', rather than a ministry of the Holy Spirit.
But , I seem to be getting everything wrong these days...so maybe you were not disagreeing with my comment to Nancy...
But it has everything to do about the salvation experience for why we are new creature as new wine bottles for why we are not leaky vessels because we are always Spirit-filled.
That is why I find it hard for you to apply that to what you are preaching. See?
So, is that disagreeing. ?
If so, I disagree with your disagree
You write as if you are in some kind of ministry as it seems are at least half of the membership here.
If so, if it is any kind of pastoring and nurturing , there is a 'giving out' of the abundance of the "Christ within" to help, encourage , teach , comfort or whatever. The 2 am phone calls for help...slowly drain us.
There is so much burn-out in ministry because some never stop long enough to wait , and allow the infilling oil to flow down through and over.
They think the people are 'their sheep' and forget that they are God's.
To wait on God for His wisdom, anointing, empowerment, and insight for service is needful ...He flows in, so we can be a vessel for Him to flow out through us, if there is no waiting and no being filled regularly the ministry is neither fit for man or beast. There is no other way...with too many it is so obvious it has become 'their ministry', rather than a ministry of the Holy Spirit.
But , I seem to be getting everything wrong these days...so maybe you were not disagreeing with my comment to Nancy...
I think it is that I wanted to "like" your post but I can see how it can mean something else and so I posted the way that I did, hoping you were meaning the same thing in regards to our faith in Jesus Christ.
Faith and love are much more than some internal code of conduct. Grace brings us to life, not law. You who would be under the Law, do you not hear what the Law says?
It's easy to explain things away by holding onto the idea that you are always spirit filled...and everything has to point to that idea. But in my experience and from the bible a person who says they are always spirit filled says so from a doctrinal position with no evidence at all besides a religious conviction. So that means that person has never been spirit filled otherwise they would notice just how deep and other-worldly that experience is.
Just that for Matthew 9:17 to be true, then we cannot present ourselves as if we are a leaky vessel unable to hold the Holy Spirit. See?
I see where you get your religious logic from...but that is NOT your true spiritual condition. You are pretending something is true by reading a book. If you read the bible you will see that nobody was pretending in the early church.
I have a thread on dogmatic certainties. It's a pathological condition that has many sufferers...because of all the bad teaching out there.
Experiences aside, where do you find in the Bible that anyone who says that the Holy Spirit is permanently in us has nothing besides a conviction with no evidence? Or that it's not actually true?
As the earnest of our inheritance, this is God's commitment to us to follow through on His promise, suiting His desire, to gather us together to be His family.
Just imagine an early church member citing the OT to prove he was saved because of claiming a verse for himself! Back then they were called religious actors...charlatans. Yes, it was the Pharisees.
They said they were disciples of Moses. But Jesus said...that Moses would reject them. And we see how many of they who pretend to be disciples of Christ will not be accepted by Him.
People should fear the Lord and not take God and the truth so lightly.
Too much holywood and religious indoctrination.
In the early church people had a testimony...not a favourite verse.
The modern churches have messed up a lot of people and immunized them from hearing the real gospel....a gospel containing the truth.
They said they were disciples of Moses. But Jesus said...that Moses would reject them. And we see how many of they who pretend to be disciples of Christ will not be accepted by Him.
People should fear the Lord and not take God and the truth so lightly.
Too much holywood and religious indoctrination.
In the early church people had a testimony...not a favourite verse.
The modern churches have messed up a lot of people and immunized them from hearing the real gospel....a gospel containing the truth.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Micah 6:8 KJV
[8] He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
Ephesians 5:2 KJV
[2] And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Tecarta Bible
Tecarta Bible
[8] He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
Ephesians 5:2 KJV
[2] And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Tecarta Bible
Tecarta Bible
I think many modern believers are trying to be the "saved" of the world rather than a light to the world. The self-centered gospel is easy and popular and hides a great lie.
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