OSAS beginning ?

[Bible_Gazer]

Once saved always saved
Has it always existed from the beginning of mankind ?
Did the OT saints have OSAS covering ?

I don't really know how the OSAS believers think on this.
Just thought they believed it happened after Jesus came.
That Jesus changed everything about salvation.

 

[Not me]

Hi, my understanding of what people believe that believe in OSAS, is the same as you being born into your family. They believe that since you are the product of your Mom and Dad. And since this is an accomplished fact, it can never be undone, for life has been birthed..They believe, (I think) that whether you are a good and obedient child, or a disobedient and bad child that fact does not change the fact that you are their child. A truth that for all eternity can not be changed because you have been born into their family...This they claim is the “you must be born again that Jesus was speaking about”...A birth that can never be undone and never not be a fact and never not be true.. I think that is their stand on it, or something to that effect...

If I may continue and I might be so bold and put forth a thought;

It seems to me, that whether OSAS was around when Paul was preaching, one would have to know why Paul was being accused of preaching a Gospel of;

“let us do evil that good may come”

Knowing and understanding why Paul was being accused of such a preaching would explain the very ground of our salvation and whether OSAS was a correct and true doctrine would become self-evident...

May God bless you in your search after the answer to this question, and may Christ so fill you with Himself that all the questions your heart preposes would be settled in Him...Knowing that for there to be a question there must be an answer...

A fellow believer, Not me

edit; the OT saints looked forward to the Crucifixion of the Messiah we NT saints look back to the Crucifixion..Same Savior, just the timing of our births...

Be blessed in Him, Not me

 

[DPMartin]

Once saved always saved
Has it always existed from the beginning of mankind ?
Did the OT saints have OSAS covering ?

I don't really know how the OSAS believers think on this.
Just thought they believed it happened after Jesus came.
That Jesus changed everything about salvation.

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

it is the faith of the faithful that determines who shall be saved. consider all that David did that was not acceptable yet he was faithful to the end. which he could not do without being called and chosen. same with Abraham called and chosen of which we are called to the same faith.

 

[DNB]

Once saved always saved
Has it always existed from the beginning of mankind ?
Did the OT saints have OSAS covering ?

I don't really know how the OSAS believers think on this.
Just thought they believed it happened after Jesus came.
That Jesus changed everything about salvation.

I have a cursory understanding of this. OSAS is definitively a Reformed tenet, as it is formulated in the acrostic TULIP, as in the 'P' - Preservation of the Saints.
This is derived, in and of itself, from many Biblical texts, and also indirectly by the 'U' - unconditional election. If God elected you, then who can resist or foil God's decree, at any given moment?
I am not Reformed, nor do I subscribe to any of the 5 points of Calvinism (Reformed Theology), but I undeniably see the Biblical attestation to their points. I just don't believe that their exegesis or understanding is comprehensive enough. That is, they overlook the over-arching Biblical maxim that man is still created in God's Image (Gen. 9:6), and that, by our own volition, it is incumbent upon us to obey God, derived from the love that we intrinsically should have for, both Him, and for righteousness.

Obviously, the OT Saints did not have an OSAS principle in their theology. Daily sacrifices were required to attain God's approbation, for the community as a whole, as were individual sacrifices for personal sins. There was no redemption outside of the Law.
But as far as Noah, Abraham, Melchizadek, Job, Isaac & Jacob are concerned, and countless other pre-Mosaic men, I do believe that the Law of Faith applied to them. And, by definition, faith is dynamic, and therefore, in the same manner that it came (faith comes by hearing and believing the Word), it can go.
Faith is wisdom, so that provided that one remains wise and gains understanding to truth, he is secure. But, if one is planted on either shallow ground or rocky soil, they may lose their faith (Matthew 13:3-8).

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Osas is a false teaching . This is the more biblical option.


Chapter 17: Of The Perseverance of the Saints
1._____ Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, whence he still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality; and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon; notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them, yet he is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.
( John 10:28, 29; Philippians 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 John 2:19; Psalms 89:31, 32; 1 Corinthians 11:32; Malachi 3:6 )
2._____ This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
( Romans 8:30 Romans 9:11, 16; Romans 5:9, 10; John 14:19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 1 John 3:9; Jeremiah 32:40 )

3._____ And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.
( Matthew 26:70, 72, 74; Isaiah 64:5, 9; Ephesians 4:30; Psalms 51:10, 12; Psalms 32:3, 4; 2 Samuel 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62 )

 

[Candidus]

Gnosticism predates the New Testament.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Once saved always saved
Has it always existed from the beginning of mankind ?
Did the OT saints have OSAS covering ?

I don't really know how the OSAS believers think on this.
Just thought they believed it happened after Jesus came.
That Jesus changed everything about salvation.

It appears OSAS has its origin in the garden of Eden where God told Adam and Eve "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." But Satan told Adam and Eve "Ye shall not surely die:"

Sin/disobedience/unrighteousness to God is the reason men are lost and as long as man continues impenitently in sin/disobedience/unrighteousness he shall be lost. The only solution to sin/disobedience/unrighteousness is obedience to God's will. And those that CONDITIONALLY continue in obedience/doing God's righteousness shall be saved. Salvation has always been conditional upon man's obedience and never UNconditional regardless of what man does.

Under the OT those that conditionally obeyed God will be the ones saved the rest will be lost. Though the Jews were God's chosen, elect people only the small remnant that conditionally obeyed God will be saved while the rest were broken off, cast away (Romans 11:20-22), no OSAS for them. But those broken off could be graffed in again IF they would not abide in sin but repent and turn to CONDITIONALLY obeying God (Romans 11:23).

Though Gentiles were graffed in it was not UNCONDITIONAL "For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." Salvation totally, completely CONDITIONAL in continuing doing God's will.

John 8:31 "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed."

Acts 13:43 "Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God."

Acts 14:22 "Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God."

Col 1:22-23 "...to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;"

1 Timothy 4:16 "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee."

1 John 2:24 "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father."

 

[Bible_Gazer]

Is God's love unconditional, can you lose his love ?
Is Grace love ?
Is that the whole core of OSAS ?

Hosea 9:15
15 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them:
for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house,
I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.

If God loves you are your saved ?
Did God love you before you got saved ?
According to the above script you can lose the love of God.

 

[APAK]

It appears OSAS has its origin in the garden of Eden where God told Adam and Eve "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." But Satan told Adam and Eve "Ye shall not surely die:"

Sin/disobedience/unrighteousness to God is the reason men are lost and as long as man continues impenitently in sin/disobedience/unrighteousness he shall be lost. The only solution to sin/disobedience/unrighteousness is obedience to God's will. And those that CONDITIONALLY continue in obedience/doing God's righteousness shall be saved. Salvation has always been conditional upon man's obedience and never UNconditional regardless of what man does.

Under the OT those that conditionally obeyed God will be the ones saved the rest will be lost. Though the Jews were God's chosen, elect people only the small remnant that conditionally obeyed God will be saved while the rest were broken off, cast away (Romans 11:20-22), no OSAS for them. But those broken off could be graffed in again IF they would not abide in sin but repent and turn to CONDITIONALLY obeying God (Romans 11:23).

Though Gentiles were graffed in it was not UNCONDITIONAL "For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." Salvation totally, completely CONDITIONAL in continuing doing God's will.

John 8:31 "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed."

Acts 13:43 "Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God."

Acts 14:22 "Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God."

Col 1:22-23 "...to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;"

1 Timothy 4:16 "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee."

1 John 2:24 "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father."

Ernest I have some queries for you.....

The verses you have just tossed out do have the common word continue or a similar meaning in them each of them. I reckon then you have used these verses to force your argument on others as if you are saying, ‘see, scripture says, we ultimately choose to be on a branch on the tree and YHWH can do nothing about it. So you might also say, OSAS is pure nonsense. And that our own will trumps YHWH’ will every time on this issue.

So let us look more closely at the word or words that indicate a continence in faith or belief. Why would scripture say such a thing considering these types of words impact our most important hope, in salvation?

I ask you then a most critical question(s) that is not to be taken lightly: if you think you are in faith and on the branch of the Yahshua, ‘the tree,’ what is the evidence of this as being a fact, for you? And the same for being out of faith, for you. What is the evidence you are ‘broken off’ the tree and laying around ready for the bonfire?

I then have some more comments based on your answers.

@Bible_Gazer ...And to answer your OP.. yes, OSAS began in the OT after the 'Fall of mankind.'..and for reasons to be known later in my comments based in part on the questions I have posed to Ernest.

Blessing to you both,

This OP is a very important topic if you did not realize it or not...a little genius involved and not to flatter...

APAK

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest I have some queries for you.....

The verses you have just tossed out do have the common word continue or a similar meaning in them each of them. I reckon then you have used these verses to force your argument on others as if you are saying, ‘see, scripture says, we ultimately choose to be on a branch on the tree and YHWH can do nothing about it. So you might also say, OSAS is pure nonsense. And that our own will trumps YHWH’ will every time on this issue.

So let us look more closely at the word or words that indicate a continence in faith or belief. Why would scripture say such a thing considering these types of words impact our most important hope, in salvation?

I ask you then a most critical question(s) that is not to be taken lightly: if you think you are in faith and on the branch of the Yahshua, ‘the tree,’ what is the evidence of this as being a fact, for you? And the same for being out of faith, for you. What is the evidence you are ‘broken off’ the tree and laying around ready for the bonfire?

I then have some more comments based on your answers.

@Bible_Gazer ...And to answer your OP.. yes, OSAS began in the OT after the 'Fall of mankind.'..and for reasons to be known later in my comments based in part on the questions I have posed to Ernest.

Blessing to you both,

This OP is a very important topic if you did not realize it or not...a little genius involved and not to flatter...

APAK

Upon one becoming a Christian, he must continue to live the life of a Christian and not fall away becoming an apostate. Hence Christians are given heed to continue, to be faithful unto death (Revelation 2:10). It is why the verb "believeth" in many verses as John 3:16 is in the present tense denoting an action that must be ongoing, sustained so the Christian should not perish falling away into unbelief.

I have not said I was "broken off" the tree laying around for the bonfire.

 

[APAK]

Upon one becoming a Christian, he must continue to live the life of a Christian and not fall away becoming an apostate. Hence Christians are given heed to continue, to be faithful unto death (Revelation 2:10). It is why the verb "believeth" in many verses as John 3:16 is in the present tense denoting an action that must be ongoing, sustained so the Christian should not perish falling away into unbelief.

I have not said I was "broken off" the tree laying around for the bonfire.

Well, I actually wanted answers to my questions, not a repackaging and re-parrotting of your original comment.

So I presume you began in faith at some point and continue in faith today, as you continue to abide in Christ..Bless you!

So somehow you KNOW (I'm guessing here) you are still continuing in faith whether you consider it weak or strong then....?

Is having weak faith still considered 'continuing in faith' or not? ...what is you gauge or your threshold/limit where you consider yourself fallen away or of others that have reached a complete loss of faith and therefore are 'cut off?' Those that once continued in faith according to you have now stopped because you or someone wanted to........Is this the way you view the scriptures and their context you previously presented?

Now to be fair I will share and tell you personally, in complete honesty and love, I do not think you can really answer these questions without being truly saved.

How say ye....if you cannot or won't answer these question I won't hold that in any way against you. Peace and love is always a part of words.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Over the course of a Christian's life, the Christian's faith can be strong and can be weak at times. As long as the Christian does abandon his faith altogether but continues onward he will be saved.

 

[APAK]

Ok Ernest, let's both review the scriptures you listed in response #7. Apparently, these are at least a partial list of passages for your support, that any true believer has the capability to willfully abandon his/her faith to salvation and become permanently lost, whenever, and at any time of choosing.

Might just do one verse per response.

John 8:31: Now the context of this verse centers on new Judean/Jew converts to Christ before his death and ascension. These converts if found worthy of salvation/saving by the Father would/could not have had his Spirit within them at this point. The grace to salvation for them was not the same as for us today.
And further, the grace of the Father to salvation for these converts were of the same nature and the same given to Abraham, David and others, even Christ's disciples. At that time, each convert or believer used their own faith in YHWH and his commandments including their belief in the future resurrected Son - who was currently speaking to them. The gift of faith by the Father was not given to them, nor could he give it to them permanently at that time anyway.

Yahshua was just saying to them to continue in the Father's 'conditional' grace as their fathers and ancestors were under the same grace. Using their own faith and complying would eventually make them believers in Christ,with the Spirit, as his permanent disciples on the path to salvation. Yahshua at that point never knew who would be successful or not. His Father only knew.

So this verse is not relevant to be used for a believer's condition of salvation under the 'New' grace of YHWH, in Christ. These converts were not/ never 'in' Christ, and absent was the gift of faith given by the Spirit. They were under the old provisions and conditions of YHWH's grace.

I guess on to the next verse....chime in at any time if you wish....

APAK

 

[APAK]

@Ernest T. Bass ..

Acts 13:43....
This verse is regarding unbelievers, not in Christ. Yes Paul invites or encourages devout followers of the Law and converts of Judaism, for the them to begin and stay in the grace of YHWH. Not to continue in the rescinded grace under the Law. Paul wanted them to change their view of YHWH and follow his grace based on Christ’s death and resurrection. This is not a verse indicating any lost faith by these Jews, let alone the abandonment of faith by a believer in Christ, during their sanctification in life.

To the next verse then...APAK

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ok Ernest, let's both review the scriptures you listed in response #7. Apparently, these are at least a partial list of passages for your support, that any true believer has the capability to willfully abandon his/her faith to salvation and become permanently lost, whenever, and at any time of choosing.

Might just do one verse per response.

John 8:31: Now the context of this verse centers on new Judean/Jew converts to Christ before his death and ascension. These converts if found worthy of salvation/saving by the Father would/could not have had his Spirit within them at this point. The grace to salvation for them was not the same as for us today.
And further, the grace of the Father to salvation for these converts were of the same nature and the same given to Abraham, David and others, even Christ's disciples. At that time, each convert or believer used their own faith in YHWH and his commandments including their belief in the future resurrected Son - who was currently speaking to them. The gift of faith by the Father was not given to them, nor could he give it to them permanently at that time anyway.

Yahshua was just saying to them to continue in the Father's 'conditional' grace as their fathers and ancestors were under the same grace. Using their own faith and complying would eventually make them believers in Christ,with the Spirit, as his permanent disciples on the path to salvation. Yahshua at that point never knew who would be successful or not. His Father only knew.

So this verse is not relevant to be used for a believer's condition of salvation under the 'New' grace of YHWH, in Christ. These converts were not/ never 'in' Christ, and absent was the gift of faith given by the Spirit. They were under the old provisions and conditions of YHWH's grace.

I guess on to the next verse....chime in at any time if you wish....

APAK

If the Christian does not continue in the word of Christ he will become lost, no longer being a disciple of Christ. No salvation apart from the word of God.

1 John 2:5
1 John 2:24

John 8:30-31 Jesus was speaking to Jews that did believe Him and if they continued in His word they would be true disciples and would know the truth. Since they believed they are to now obey His words to be a true disciple. Abiding in His word is required for one to become saved and continue to remain saved. 2 John 2:19 "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son." The point still remains for one to be saved and continue to be saved he must continue to abide in the word, the doctrine, of Christ.

 

[APAK]

If the Christian does not continue in the word of Christ he will become lost, no longer being a disciple of Christ. No salvation apart from the word of God.

1 John 2:5
1 John 2:24

John 8:30-31 Jesus was speaking to Jews that did believe Him and if they continued in His word they would be true disciples and would know the truth. Since they believed they are to now obey His words to be a true disciple. Abiding in His word is required for one to become saved and continue to remain saved. 2 John 2:19 "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son." The point still remains for one to be saved and continue to be saved he must continue to abide in the word, the doctrine, of Christ.

The last statement you made: "The point still remains for one to be saved and continue to be saved he must continue to abide in the word, the doctrine, of Christ."

This is your opinion only and your inference only, not explicitly stated in these two verses at all. You must acknowledge that your answer cannot be that simplistic in reasoning!

In language of logic and inference you state:

If U = T + NA and if S = T + NA then S = U. You cannot make this into sound argument because you do not know if S(Saved) can commit (T) transgressions as an (U)unsaved person, and 2, that this Saved person does (NA) not abide in the teachings of Christ, ever or can ever. You want it to be true I do know that of course. So IF S=T + NA this is a if and not a FACT of scripture. You have to show all this in scripture and circular reasoning does not count.

Yes indeed, one major mark of abiding in Christ is the belief in his words and his teachings, and a belief that can ONLY be created in the heart by the SPIRIT, to act upon in life.

So in 2 John 1:9 it speaks of those that transgress and do not believe or walk in the teachings of Christ. I believe it is safe to say transgress means whoever sins or offends YHWH. And yes they of course, do not have YHWH IN their heart! And of course those that are saved have the SPIRIT that provides the spirit of his Son and thus HIS DOCTRINE and commandments and thus they are always abiding in Christ. Being saved means we are then all in one SPIRIT - we start as a new seed or new branch abiding in both Christ the tree, and YHWH, the planter of the tree. We are always abiding in Christ. It is not reversible as returning to sin is also, NOT reversible as an unbeliever. YHWH does not see our sin in Christ and that he is fashioning us in the image of Christ whilst we are on the tree of life.

Further, 'loss' of salvation is would seem is a no-return to Christ and the Father or a non-recovery act/state? I guess this is your take?

Is it then, by your reckoning, that if someone who thought (in mind and heart) was saved, abiding in Christ, and for months sinned exceedingly and did not repent until a year later. All the while the SPIRIT kept convicting this person and then finally genuine repentance received. Is this person then SINNING and NOT abiding for months as an unbeliever and some who is lost, too late to recover and is lost in a non- recoverable act/state? Did they sin as an unbeliever then? This would be a transgressions against YHWH and of Christ's words and doctrine, right? So he is lost or lost his salvation? Can you then measure salvation in terms of a line that must not be crossed? Does 2 John 1:9 really suggest you can lose you salvation and where does it say is the cut line?

You see abiding in Christ, is SPIRIT driven and not by human will or work driven. Abiding in Christ is conveyed as a lifestyle, as also in sinning or not. if not, as you seem to suggest, NOT ONE person can maintain their salvation under your interpretation.. Not one human alive can 'perfectly' abide in Christ by their own steam or works, as I sense this is your meaning.

No, the sound argument and premises are these, that:

U = T + NA and S not = T + NA therefore S not = U and therefore S is still SAVED not unsaved or lost. You cannot use some credentials of an unbeliever as in the verses you listed, and apply it so easily to an imperfect true believer that falls at times and is driven by the will of the SPIRIT that keeps them abiding in Christ.

If we used 2 John 1:9 solely as the basis for salvation we definitely would be still lost.

We are not saved by suddenly deciding not to sin or transgress or suddenly believe in the words of Christ ONE day.

And, WE DO NOT CONTINUE in salvation.

The grace of YHWH along with our genuine confession and repentance of sin and the belief in the gospel including our identification with Christ's baptism SAVES us, ONE day.

And, the SPIRIT continues IN US salvation, in sanctification to glorification.


Bless you,

APAK

 

[APAK]

@Ernest T. Bass ...
and now for the context of 2 John 1:9 you forgot to consider.....that is of crucial importance when you try to persuade that a true believer can lose their salvation and based on irrelevant scripture.

John is speaking to believers, most probably new as most were at that time, to be alert to deceivers. As in verse 7..
He warns these believers that if they get deceived by these that 'run ahead' (verse 9) with an evil doctrine and they are persuaded and even invite them in, they can lose some of their rewards that are entitled to.....not their salvation

I say again....NOTHING about losing their SALVATION....

Note: your verse translation in 1 John is one of several...where 'transgression' in verse 9 can be called by the phrase 'run ahead', that I used...so therefore need to watchful and wise on the translation version you use.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[FHII]

OSAS seems to me to come from the notion that God has predestinated people to be his sons. That is, before they were born (and even before the world was created) God had it Planned out beforehand. To which, there is plenty of biblical support (Eph 1, Romans 8, Isa 46:10, for starters).

OSAS is a concept to TULIP which are falsely credited to John Calvin. Some followers of his (some time after his death) came up with the concepts and acronyms based on what he wrote. Yet, in reality, Calvin spoke little about it. Percentage wise, that is. He wrote 3 chapters in one book out of more than 50 published books, and the we're all long snoozers! Though, brilliant works... Just often times too flowery and long. I reckon he was writing not to inform, but to create written art.

I digress... In short, Calvin himself was not a Calvinists and while he did believe in predestination, he didn't come up with OSAS.

Very few would dare say God doesn't know the future of things and even individuals. He knows who is saved. The problem is some people don't believe God "ordains" it: that is, causes it to be so.

There is plenty of incidences where God pulled strings to make things happen in the Bible. Sometimes subtile, sometimes drastic. But folks believe they are free moral agents. Thus,God ain't interfering in their walk (I shudder to believe that! But that's just me).

But regardless of which side of the fence you are on, it's meaningless. The reason it's meaningless is because he doesn't let us know if we are saved. He gave a plan. He gave a checklist and a promise that if we do these things, we're going to make it.

Therefore, any notion that we can do whatever we want and still be saved is rediculous. Throw in the message of Grace, and it seems like we are free to do whatever... Not so. We are not judged by sins if the flesh if we have faith. But that still means we have to have faith (which is alot more involved than people think).

Bottom line:. Yes, God knows who will be saved, and God has ordained it. But it doesn't do us any good. God doesn't tell us individually who will be. He obviously still wants us to go through the process.

And if we knew we were in the clear, we wouldn't go through the process.

I love predestination because it tells me that whatever happens, God's on my side. It tells me that the spiritual battles and earthly battles will be won if I stay on course. Yes! It's fixed! But it's not early retirement.

 

[APAK]

@FHII ...I agree, first, that Calvin did not invent the TULIP axioms...it was developed by the 2nd century, although not in that form.

God does move in our world through his Spirit, angels and other believers that we cannot attempt to fathom, every moment and every day.

The notion and frequent use by many, I believe of the insecure, of the term 'FREE will', and not the demoted self-will, especially regarding choice and sin and salvation, says it all for me.

We don't even know was 'choice' really means let alone what is a will to decide....of what choice, from what choices...do we know was are all the choices..can we be conscience of them all?..is it free what is free?...and on.. We love to presume we know and elevate our own egos.

Thanks and have a blessed week...

//
Going on, I hope, a non-virus ridden cruise next week....from Florida

APAK

 

[Dcopymope]

OSAS seems to me to come from the notion that God has predestinated people to be his sons. That is, before they were born (and even before the world was created) God had it Planned out beforehand. To which, there is plenty of biblical support (Eph 1, Romans 8, Isa 46:10, for starters).

OSAS is a concept to TULIP which are falsely credited to John Calvin. Some followers of his (some time after his death) came up with the concepts and acronyms based on what he wrote. Yet, in reality, Calvin spoke little about it. Percentage wise, that is. He wrote 3 chapters in one book out of more than 50 published books, and the we're all long snoozers! Though, brilliant works... Just often times too flowery and long. I reckon he was writing not to inform, but to create written art.

I digress... In short, Calvin himself was not a Calvinists and while he did believe in predestination, he didn't come up with OSAS.

Very few would dare say God doesn't know the future of things and even individuals. He knows who is saved. The problem is some people don't believe God "ordains" it: that is, causes it to be so.

There is plenty of incidences where God pulled strings to make things happen in the Bible. Sometimes subtile, sometimes drastic. But folks believe they are free moral agents

I'd reckon that there wouldn't be any strings for God to pull to start with if we aren't free moral agents. This is not even counting the justification for the prophesied great white throne judgement. We are told to believe that a just God will decide who gets to live and die forever based on their works, who had no control over the moral decisions they made in their entire lives to start with. Does that sound like justice to you, to be held accountable for something you have no control over?