The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[BreadOfLife]

Okay.

You just realized the older the translator the better.

Now, times that by 50, Catholic.

This, coming frim a guy who doesn't have the first clue about the science of linguistics - so he invents false doctrines based on perverted interpretations.

Your poor kids . . .

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

That's absolutely ridiculous.
I never claimed any such thing.

Maybe you should go back and actually R*E*A*D the posts . . .

Stop avoiding the real issue.
When the text said....Joseph knew not Mary...what did that mean?
He was betrothed to her. Are you going to say he did not know who she was?
When Adam "knew" Eve....she conceived .

To know meant an intimate knowledge of the person,as in sexual union.

Mary lost her virginity, after the Virgin birth.
She had a normal sex life as any married couple does.

You try and avoid the answer with some who lame post about the word until, that has nothing to do with this issue.

Back in Genesis it says Adam knew his wife again, gen4:1...Adam knew Eve...she conceived
Gen4:17 Cain knew his wife, and she conceived.
Gen4:25 Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son...
Joseph knew not Mary until after the birth of Jesus

 

[BreadOfLife]

Stop avoiding the real issue.
When the text said....Joseph knew not Mary...what did that mean?
He was betrothed to her. Are you going to say he did not know who she was?
When Adam "knew" Eve....she conceived .

To know meant an intimate knowledge of the person,as in sexual union.

Mary lost her virginity, after the Virgin birth.
She had a normal sex life as any married couple does.

You try and avoid the answer with some who lame post about the word until, that has nothing to do with this issue.

Back in Genesis it says Adam knew his wife again, gen4:1...Adam knew Eve...she conceived
Gen4:17 Cain knew his wife, and she conceived.
Gen4:25 Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son...
Joseph knew not Mary until after the birth of Jesus

I haven't "avoided" anything.
As a matter of fact - I already addressed this head-on back in post #2433.

Here it is AGAIN for your review.
Pay attention this time . . .

The Greek word used in this verse is not the usual term for "knowledge (oida) but is actually based on a Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse (ghin-oce'-ko). HOWEVER - if you are trying to make an argument that Joseph and Mary engaged in sexual intercourse based on this verse - you apparently aren't familiar with other areas in Scripture where "until" (heos) is used. Allow me to explain . . .

Did Mary have other children after Jesus? The Bible doesn't support this idea.
Let’s see what the Scriptures say about the use of the word, “until”:

2 Samuel 6:23 tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child until the day of her death.
Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?

Let’s also examine Acts 2:34-35 (also see Psalm 110:1, Matt 22:44): For David did not go up into heaven, but he himself said: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool."'
Are we to surmise that Jesus will cease to sit at the right hand of the Father after his enemies are made his footstool?

Deut. 34:6 states explicitly that Moses was buried by God in the Valley of Moab - and nobody knows and no one knows his burial place until this day.
Does this mean that Moses' body was discovered after this verse was written?

In short - "until" does NOT always mean that there was a subsequent course of action.

The problem here is that anti-Catholics like YOU attempt to apply 21st century English to Hebrew and Greek from a culture thousands of years ago because you don't understand the languages OR cultures.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

I haven't "avoided" anything.
As a matter of fact - I already addressed this head-on back in post #2433.

Here it is AGAIN for your review.
Pay attention this time . . .

The Greek word used in this verse is not the usual term for "knowledge (oida) but is actually based on a Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse (ghin-oce'-ko). HOWEVER - if you are trying to make an argument that Joseph and Mary engaged in sexual intercourse based on this verse - you apparently aren't familiar with other areas in Scripture where "until" (heos) is used. Allow me to explain . . .

Did Mary have other children after Jesus? The Bible doesn't support this idea.
Let’s see what the Scriptures say about the use of the word, “until”:

2 Samuel 6:23 tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child until the day of her death.
Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?

Let’s also examine Acts 2:34-35 (also see Psalm 110:1, Matt 22:44): For David did not go up into heaven, but he himself said: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool."'
Are we to surmise that Jesus will cease to sit at the right hand of the Father after his enemies are made his footstool?

Deut. 34:6 states explicitly that Moses was buried by God in the Valley of Moab - and nobody knows and no one knows his burial place until this day.
Does this mean that Moses' body was discovered after this verse was written?

In short - "until" does NOT always mean that there was a subsequent course of action.

The problem here is that anti-Catholics like YOU attempt to apply 21st century English to Hebrew and Greek from a culture thousands of years ago because you don't understand the languages OR cultures.

The word until is not the issue, I clearly said that.
You avoid the biblical teaching once again,my wafer warrior friend.
I understand you have no answer except to believe it and give up your idolatry or maintain your fables.
I left that false teaching church for bible beleving churches, years ago. To follow biblical teaching it is necessary.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I haven't "avoided" anything.
As a matter of fact - I already addressed this head-on back in post #2433.

Here it is AGAIN for your review.
Pay attention this time . . .

The Greek word used in this verse is not the usual term for "knowledge (oida) but is actually based on a Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse (ghin-oce'-ko). HOWEVER - if you are trying to make an argument that Joseph and Mary engaged in sexual intercourse based on this verse - you apparently aren't familiar with other areas in Scripture where "until" (heos) is used. Allow me to explain . . .

Did Mary have other children after Jesus? The Bible doesn't support this idea.
Let’s see what the Scriptures say about the use of the word, “until”:

2 Samuel 6:23 tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child until the day of her death.
Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?

Let’s also examine Acts 2:34-35 (also see Psalm 110:1, Matt 22:44): For David did not go up into heaven, but he himself said: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool."'
Are we to surmise that Jesus will cease to sit at the right hand of the Father after his enemies are made his footstool?

Deut. 34:6 states explicitly that Moses was buried by God in the Valley of Moab - and nobody knows and no one knows his burial place until this day.
Does this mean that Moses' body was discovered after this verse was written?

In short - "until" does NOT always mean that there was a subsequent course of action.

The problem here is that anti-Catholics like YOU attempt to apply 21st century English to Hebrew and Greek from a culture thousands of years ago because you don't understand the languages OR cultures.

I do not know what is sadder

That this user can not see he just PROVED mary did not have sex UNTIL she gave birth to her son.

or that he buys into his churches excuse to try to exxplain away her prepetual virginity as the queen of heaven

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

I do not know what is sadder

That this user can not see he just PROVED mary did not have sex UNTIL she gave birth to her son.

or that he buys into his churches excuse to try to exxplain away her prepetual virginity as the queen of heaven

Those caught in that church hold on as long as they can. If God Grant's him repentance and allows him to see truth, only then will he get right.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The word until is not the issue, I clearly said that.
You avoid the biblical teaching once again,my wafer warrior friend.
I understand you have no answer except to believe it and give up your idolatry or maintain your fables.
I left that false teaching church for bible beleving churches, years ago. To follow biblical teaching it is necessary.

I addressed your point thoroughly.

You are arguing in circles - as MOST anti-Catholics usually wind up doing when they've been defeated.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I do not know what is sadder

That this user can not see he just PROVED mary did not have sex UNTIL she gave birth to her son.

or that he buys into his churches excuse to try to exxplain away her prepetual virginity as the queen of heaven

Those caught in that church hold on as long as they can. If God Grant's him repentance and allows him to see truth, only then will he get right.

All I did was prove that the word "Until" does NOT always indicated a subsequent action in Scripture.

This is a Biblical fact that yoiu guys can't seem to wrap your heads around . . .

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Those caught in that church hold on as long as they can. If God Grant's him repentance and allows him to see truth, only then will he get right.

I have had these conversation so many times in my life. and I still am dumbfounded at how people blindly listen to their leaders and fail to see how bad what they say is.. In trying to defend themselves. they end up hurting themselves

 

[Truther]

This, coming frim a guy who doesn't have the first clue about the science of linguistics - so he invents false doctrines based on perverted interpretations.

Your poor kids . . .

Science of linguistics?

50 translators from over 400 years ago are false doctrine?

You need to believe your KJV translation as the most ancient translation by election process and trust God instead of modern translators and the Pope.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

All I did was prove that the word "Until" does NOT always indicated a subsequent action in Scripture.

This is a Biblical fact that yoiu guys can't seem to wrap your heads around . . .

nope

what you did was prove the word UNTIL means what it says It means she did not have sexual relations until something occurred.

The FACT is if they NEVER had relations. there is absolutely no need to even suggest they did. All God would have to say is they NEVER KNEW EACH OTHER

You did not prove otherwise. and you never will. Because you can't

Your argument has been refuted so many times in my life I lost count.

Its not a biblical fact. Its your churches fact, which is in error.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Science of linguistics?
50 translators from over 400 years ago are false doctrine?
You need to believe your KJV translation as the most ancient translation by election process and trust God instead of modern translators and the Pope.

In only trust GOD and his inspired writers and the God-given Authority that He gave to His Church.
I don't trust ANY translator as "inspired" - like YOU do.

Shame on you for putting so much trust in mere men . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

nope
what you did was prove the word UNTIL means what it says It means she did not have sexual relations until something occurred.
The FACT is if they NEVER had relations. there is absolutely no need to even suggest they did. All God would have to say is they NEVER KNEW EACH OTHER

You did not prove otherwise. and you never will. Because you can't
Your argument has been refuted so many times in my life I lost count.
Its not a biblical fact. Its your churches fact, which is in error.

Ummmmm, as I proved - the text doesn't suggest that they had relations.
I've proven to you that "Until" (heos) doesn't always indicated a subsequent action.

You can sit there ALL day long and deny it - but the proof is in the texts that I provided.
YOU don't have a Scriptural or linguistic leg to stand on . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

I have had these conversation so many times in my life. and I still am dumbfounded at how people blindly listen to their leaders and fail to see how bad what they say is.. In trying to defend themselves. they end up hurting themselves

Then, why don't you answer the questions that I asked of all of you??
So far - NONE of you has been able to answer them.

2 Samuel 6:23 tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child UNTIL the day of her death.
Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?

Let’s also examine Acts 2:34-35 (also see Psalm 110:1, Matt 22:44): For David did not go up into heaven, but he himself said: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand UNTIL I make your enemies your footstool."'
Are we to surmise that Jesus will cease to sit at the right hand of the Father after his enemies are made his footstool?

Deut. 34:6 states explicitly that Moses was buried by God in the Valley of Moab - "and no one knows his burial place UNTIL this day."
Does this mean that Moses' body was discovered after this verse was written?


I eagerly await your Scripturally-sound response . . .

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Ummmmm, as I proved - the text doesn't suggest that they had relations.
I've proven to you that "Until" (heos) doesn't always indicated a subsequent action.

You can sit there ALL day long and deny it - but the proof is in the texts that I provided.
YOU don't have a Scriptural or linguistic leg to stand on . . .

um yes it does.

there is absolutely no reason to put the text in scripture UNLESS they had relations

God is not the author of confusion. He would simply say, they NEVER knew each other.

But you have no desire to understand because you blindly follow anything your church says.

thats on you.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

23 Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no children to the day of her death.

This plainly says Michal never had any children (since no one can have a child after death)

You can not use this with Mary, SHE COULD have relations after birthing Christ, (Mary did not did, Nor did her husband)

this is called foolishly using scripture out of context to support a few which falls apart

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

I addressed your point thoroughly.

You are arguing in circles - as MOST anti-Catholics usually wind up doing when they've been defeated.

I asked you about the word know, you ignore it because you are biblically illiterate.
You pretend to know but do not, so you insult those who offer help to you.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I asked you about the word know, you ignore it because you are biblically illiterate.
You pretend to know but do not, so you insult those who offer help to you.

he does not think he needs help. He thinks we just are out to attack him

 

[BreadOfLife]

23 Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no children to the day of her death.
This plainly says Michal never had any children (since no one can have a child after death)

You can not use this with Mary, SHE COULD have relations after birthing Christ, (Mary did not did, Nor did her husband)
this is called foolishly using scripture out of context to support a few which falls apart

Ummmm, then WHY was the Hebrew word "Until" (`ad) used here in 2 Sam. 6:23??
You need to explain why.

You ALSO need to explain that if this is the case with 2 Sam. 6:23 - why could it cannot be the case with Matt. 1:23 . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

I asked you about the word know, you ignore it because you are biblically illiterate.
You pretend to know but do not, so you insult those who offer help to you.

No - I specifically addressed the word "know" as used in post #2433.

THIS is what I said:
"The Greek word used in this verse is not the usual term for "knowledge (oida) but is actually a Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse (ghin-oce'-ko)."

So, you are LYING again.
If you don't want to be exposed - then STOP lying.