Is my salvation based upon my knowledge of the Trinity?

[101G]

Three.

are you saying that Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he". is three persons?

 

[Waiting on him]

If you are wanting to say that Christ raised Himself from the dead you are going to have to do some dueling with a few scriptures.
God the Father raised Jesus (Acts 2:24, 32; 3:15, 26; 4:10; 5:30; 10:40; 13:30, 33, 34, 37).
Is that the last word. Well there are some traditions that say that Christ preached the Gospel to the Jews in Sheol and confronted Satan...traditions. Did He die like we die? His body died and God rose Him in a new different body, I mean not a normal body. But hands down the scriptures say that Christ was raised by God the father.

Destroy this temple and who will raise it up?

 

[Waiting on him]

If you are wanting to say that Christ raised Himself from the dead you are going to have to do some dueling with a few scriptures.
God the Father raised Jesus (Acts 2:24, 32; 3:15, 26; 4:10; 5:30; 10:40; 13:30, 33, 34, 37).
Is that the last word. Well there are some traditions that say that Christ preached the Gospel to the Jews in Sheol and confronted Satan...traditions. Did He die like we die? His body died and God rose Him in a new different body, I mean not a normal body. But hands down the scriptures say that Christ was raised by God the father.

Destroy this temple and who will raise it up?

I.

 

[Waiting on him]

If you are wanting to say that Christ raised Himself from the dead you are going to have to do some dueling with a few scriptures.
God the Father raised Jesus (Acts 2:24, 32; 3:15, 26; 4:10; 5:30; 10:40; 13:30, 33, 34, 37).
Is that the last word. Well there are some traditions that say that Christ preached the Gospel to the Jews in Sheol and confronted Satan...traditions. Did He die like we die? His body died and God rose Him in a new different body, I mean not a normal body. But hands down the scriptures say that Christ was raised by God the father.

Destroy this temple and who will raise it up?

I.

 

[Waiting on him]

If you are wanting to say that Christ raised Himself from the dead you are going to have to do some dueling with a few scriptures.
God the Father raised Jesus (Acts 2:24, 32; 3:15, 26; 4:10; 5:30; 10:40; 13:30, 33, 34, 37).
Is that the last word. Well there are some traditions that say that Christ preached the Gospel to the Jews in Sheol and confronted Satan...traditions. Did He die like we die? His body died and God rose Him in a new different body, I mean not a normal body. But hands down the scriptures say that Christ was raised by God the father.

Destroy this temple and who will raise it up?

I.

 

[Waiting on him]

Not sure how that happened.

 

[101G]

Not sure how that happened.

it's called reinforced memory .... lol..... sometime it takes a few shwack with the sledge hammer to get through.

PICJAG

 

[Grailhunter]

Destroy this temple and who will raise it up?

I.

We can put all the scriptures that God the Father raised Christ up and put them in one a bucket
and then put all scriptures that say that Christ rose Himself up and put them in another bucket and see
which one gets fuller. I am neutral on the topic. And there is a scripture that says "the Spirit" raised Him. Romans 8:11
Clear as mud. You guys sort it out.

 

[101G]

We can put all the scriptures that God the Father raised Christ up and put them in one a bucket
and then put all scriptures that say that Christ rose Himself up and put them in another bucket and see
which one gets fuller. I am neutral on the topic. And there is a scripture that says "the Spirit" raised Him. Romans 8:11
Clear as mud. You guys sort it out.

not for an argument, thanks for the reply. if the Bible say God, or the Spirit raise up Christ body then one cannot separate the bible, it must harmonize. for a house divide it will not stand, hece the need for the TRUTH. now if Jesus, who cannot lie said that he raised up that body then the terms "God", and "Spirit is referring to JESUS, else our Lord and Saviour Lied, God forbid. so knowing that he Jesus said that he raised up that body then he did.

Just as in pouring out his Spirit on pentecost.


Acts 2:17 "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:”. this was from Joel 2:28 & 29

Notice the scripture said, “GOD” will pour out of his Spirit, but lets see who “poured” out his Spirit,

Acts 2:33 "Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear”. so it is JESUS who poured out.

the word “shed” is “poured”, G1632 ἐκχέω ekcheo (ek-che'-ō) v.
ἐκχύνω ekchuno (ek-chï '-nō) [by variation]
1. to pour forth.
2. (figuratively) to bestow.
[from G1537 and cheo “to pour”]
KJV: gush (pour) out, run greedily (out), shed (abroad, forth), spill
Root(s): G1537

so who was it that “Pour” out the Spirit? God or the Lord Jesus?, it’s the same one person.

PICJAG.

 

[Grailhunter]

not for an argument, thanks for the reply. if the Bible say God, or the Spirit raise up Christ body then one cannot separate the bible, it must harmonize. for a house divide it will not stand, hece the need for the TRUTH. now if Jesus, who cannot lie said that he raised up that body then the terms "God", and "Spirit is referring to JESUS, else our Lord and Saviour Lied, God forbid. so knowing that he Jesus said that he raised up that body then he did.

Just as in pouring out his Spirit on pentecost.


Acts 2:17 "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:”. this was from Joel 2:28 & 29

Notice the scripture said, “GOD” will pour out of his Spirit, but lets see who “poured” out his Spirit,

Acts 2:33 "Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear”. so it is JESUS who poured out.

the word “shed” is “poured”, G1632 ἐκχέω ekcheo (ek-che'-ō) v.
ἐκχύνω ekchuno (ek-chï '-nō) [by variation]
1. to pour forth.
2. (figuratively) to bestow.
[from G1537 and cheo “to pour”]
KJV: gush (pour) out, run greedily (out), shed (abroad, forth), spill
Root(s): G1537

so who was it that “Pour” out the Spirit? God or the Lord Jesus?, it’s the same one person.

PICJAG.

Like I said, you sort it out. God Bless

 

[CharismaticLady]

.....Care to elaborate?

John 2:19
19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

John 10:17-18
17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.

 

[CharismaticLady]

we're speaking of the Father and the Son, here,now in Isaiah Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he".

is the first and the Last one or two persons?

only "One" person or it's "Two" persons.

PICJAG.

A paraphrase says it like this:

It is I, the Lord, the First and Last; I alone am he.

 

[tigger 2]

John 2:19
19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

John 10:17-18
17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.

In English we use “rise” and “raise” with two distinctly different meanings. “Rise” is what a person or thing does by itself to itself: “I rise every morning at dawn;” “the sun will rise soon.”


“Raise,” on the other hand, is what a person does to some other object or person: “He raised the flag.” “The flag was raised.” The object does not “rise” by itself in this case, but is actually “raised” by someone else! If “raise” is to be used with one’s own self as the object, it must be so stated or plainly understood: “I raised myself so I could see better”!

An examination of all the passages dealing with Christ’s resurrection shows that this is also the intent of nearly all of them. Therefore, when we see “God, having raised up his servant” (Acts 3:26, RSV), we understand God as being one person who raised up someone else (His servant, Jesus). And at Gal. 1:1 we see - “God the Father, who raised [Jesus Christ] from the dead.”

Probably the only place you could find where there appears to be a statement that the Son raised himself (in contrast to the many scriptures to the contrary) would be John 2:19-22.

John 2:19, 21, 22 -

“Jesus answered them, ‘Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.’ .... But he spoke of the temple of his body. When therefore he was raised [not ‘he raised himself’] from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this.” - RSV.

Rather than ignoring this scripture, since at first glance it seems to contradict all the many others about Jesus being raised up by the Father alone, we should make every attempt to understand it in agreement with the other scriptures on the subject.

Obviously Jesus was speaking figuratively here, whereas the other scriptures concerning his being raised are to be understood literally. Figurative Bible language often leads to difficulties in interpretation.

However, Jesus was speaking figuratively of his actual body which his enemies really did destroy (“destroy this temple and ...”). Therefore, one understanding might be that Jesus was merely stating that after the Father had already returned Jesus’ life to a body (“raised” him to life) Jesus was then physically able to raise up that life-filled body: He literally was able to raise himself to his feet again; he raised his own body up from a prone position!

Even noted trinitarian NT Greek scholar A. T. Robertson tells us

“Recall [John] 2:19 where Jesus said: ‘And in three days I will raise it up.’ He did not mean that he will raise himself independently of the Father as the active agent (Rom. 8:11).” - Word Pictures in the New Testament, Vol. v, p. 183.

Additionally, most trinitarian translations translate John 10:17-18 as

“I lay down my life, that I may take it again .... I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again; this charge I have received from my Father.” - RSV.

That Jesus had the “power to take his life again” might seem to be implying that he would actually resurrect himself.

However, we should be aware that, although this translation is understandably the most popular one for trinitarians, it is not the only interpretation. In fact, it is not even the most likely, and, in light of many other scriptures, it is certainly not the most appropriate.

Even some trinitarian Bibles translate lambano in John 10:17, 18 as “receive” instead of “take” (as in the RSV above) and exousia as “right” or “authority” instead of “power” as in the RSV above:

“I have the right [exousia] to lay it down, and I have the right [exousia] to receive [lambano] it back again; this charge I have received [lambano] from my Father.” - New English Bible (NEB); REB; The Emphasized Bible; Weymouth; Young’s Concise Critical Bible Commentary.

Such a rendering, of course, is in line with the Father alone actually raising up the dead Jesus as so many scriptures plainly state.

The very trinitarian New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible tells us that exousia can mean several different things including “authority,” “right,” and “power.” It further shows us that the equally trinitarian New American Standard Bible (NASB) translates exousia as “authority” 65 times, as “right” 11 times, and as “power” only 11 times.

 

[amadeus]

Thank you so much for that prayer @Grailhunter it's certainly needed today and much appreciated. Just a little stressed this morning as I have a cv19 test in a half hour. blessings and peace

Have you in prayer!

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Bro, do yourself a favor. Instead of listening to the many heretics on this site deny the trinity, take time to read some works on The Trinity that support the Biblical evidence.

God bless.

I've never seen a trinity doctrine in the scriptures nor have I found the concepts of the Trinity in the scriptures.

 

[amadeus]

I've never seen a trinity doctrine in the scriptures nor have I found the concepts of the Trinity in the scriptures.

Well my friend you do not stand alone in this!

 

[Paul Christensen]

I've never seen a trinity doctrine in the scriptures nor have I found the concepts of the Trinity in the scriptures.

Although we have many clues from what God has said in the Old Testament, and statements that Jesus made, along with the events surround His baptism and transfiguration, that there are three separate personalities that most Bible scholars believe make up the plural God.

But Jesus never taught the trinity directly, so He didn't see it as something significantly essential to believing the gospel and being born again of the Spirit of God. The other reason is that God doesn't have to spill His guts about everything to do with His nature and character just to please the over-curious who get their rocks off by delving into mysteries that we don't have direct access to. If we knew all about Him, He would not be God.

If I see a door with a sign "Authorised Personnel Only", and I am not authorised, then I don't go through that door. I know from what I read in the Bible that God does not always appear as just one person, but there is no enough for me to give a clear definition of God being three persons, except that the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all mentioned in the Bible, and these three are identified as God. But I am not authorised to delve into the intricate details of how it is, because we are not given the right or opportunity to do so.

I have the right to believe what I choose about it, based on what I see in the Scripture, but I don't have the right to condemn anyone who doesn't believe what I choose to believe.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

I've never seen a trinity doctrine in the scriptures nor have I found the concepts of the Trinity in the scriptures.

For obvious reasons.

 

[APAK]

In English we use “rise” and “raise” with two distinctly different meanings. “Rise” is what a person or thing does by itself to itself: “I rise every morning at dawn;” “the sun will rise soon.”


“Raise,” on the other hand, is what a person does to some other object or person: “He raised the flag.” “The flag was raised.” The object does not “rise” by itself in this case, but is actually “raised” by someone else! If “raise” is to be used with one’s own self as the object, it must be so stated or plainly understood: “I raised myself so I could see better”!

An examination of all the passages dealing with Christ’s resurrection shows that this is also the intent of nearly all of them. Therefore, when we see “God, having raised up his servant” (Acts 3:26, RSV), we understand God as being one person who raised up someone else (His servant, Jesus). And at Gal. 1:1 we see - “God the Father, who raised [Jesus Christ] from the dead.”

Probably the only place you could find where there appears to be a statement that the Son raised himself (in contrast to the many scriptures to the contrary) would be John 2:19-22.

John 2:19, 21, 22 -

“Jesus answered them, ‘Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.’ .... But he spoke of the temple of his body. When therefore he was raised [not ‘he raised himself’] from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this.” - RSV.

Rather than ignoring this scripture, since at first glance it seems to contradict all the many others about Jesus being raised up by the Father alone, we should make every attempt to understand it in agreement with the other scriptures on the subject.

Obviously Jesus was speaking figuratively here, whereas the other scriptures concerning his being raised are to be understood literally. Figurative Bible language often leads to difficulties in interpretation.

However, Jesus was speaking figuratively of his actual body which his enemies really did destroy (“destroy this temple and ...”). Therefore, one understanding might be that Jesus was merely stating that after the Father had already returned Jesus’ life to a body (“raised” him to life) Jesus was then physically able to raise up that life-filled body: He literally was able to raise himself to his feet again; he raised his own body up from a prone position!

Even noted trinitarian NT Greek scholar A. T. Robertson tells us

“Recall [John] 2:19 where Jesus said: ‘And in three days I will raise it up.’ He did not mean that he will raise himself independently of the Father as the active agent (Rom. 8:11).” - Word Pictures in the New Testament, Vol. v, p. 183.

Additionally, most trinitarian translations translate John 10:17-18 as

“I lay down my life, that I may take it again .... I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again; this charge I have received from my Father.” - RSV.

That Jesus had the “power to take his life again” might seem to be implying that he would actually resurrect himself.

However, we should be aware that, although this translation is understandably the most popular one for trinitarians, it is not the only interpretation. In fact, it is not even the most likely, and, in light of many other scriptures, it is certainly not the most appropriate.

Even some trinitarian Bibles translate lambano in John 10:17, 18 as “receive” instead of “take” (as in the RSV above) and exousia as “right” or “authority” instead of “power” as in the RSV above:

“I have the right [exousia] to lay it down, and I have the right [exousia] to receive [lambano] it back again; this charge I have received [lambano] from my Father.” - New English Bible (NEB); REB; The Emphasized Bible; Weymouth; Young’s Concise Critical Bible Commentary.

Such a rendering, of course, is in line with the Father alone actually raising up the dead Jesus as so many scriptures plainly state.

The very trinitarian New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible tells us that exousia can mean several different things including “authority,” “right,” and “power.” It further shows us that the equally trinitarian New American Standard Bible (NASB) translates exousia as “authority” 65 times, as “right” 11 times, and as “power” only 11 times.

Great reply tigger...with some decent support..

Yes indeed...
Verse 19: Jesus said destroy my physical body and my life here on the earth and I will build it up or raise it up as a ‘new’ temple of worship. Jesus was speaking of his new resurrected body after 3 days of physical death. His Father would raise him from the dead and his resurrected new life (living new body) would be worshiped by all who believe and have faith..we shall worship in (the) Spirit and not in rituals etc.


Bless you,

APAK

 

[101G]

A paraphrase says it like this:

It is I, the Lord, the First and Last; I alone am he.

(smile), BINGO, and the other verse makes it very, very clear, Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last".

this is one person speaking here.

CharismaticLady, you get the cigar today, ..... but just don't smoke it, ok, bad for the lungs, but you have it on that one.

PICJAG.