Miracles and certain spiritual gifts

[Waiting on him]

What is your understanding of 'perfection' in Heb 6:1?

My understanding is for the Jew in that period upon being truly converted, they experienced maturity, miraculously received maturity.. they did not undergo sanctification as the gentile would.

 

[Paul Christensen]

All 9 gifts will be ended at the return of Christ.

Paul explained how some will be done away.

The Corinthian church understood.

Why don't you?

Maybe he doesn't want to.

 

[Paul Christensen]

When God's Word was complete, those gifts did cease that is not the issue. The church did not use God's Word, especially after adding so much extra to it. Thus those gifts had to creep back in.

I am not saying that your movement totally left the Word behind, but if you yourself deny the doctrine of the verse, your mind is set on the gifts only, because the Word is not complete in your mind. The Word of God does dispell the darkness even in deepest pagan lands. Gifts do dispell as well. If the Word is not made complete and one relies on gifts, then gifts are as far as we get. Which is a shame, because the Word gives way more benefit and complete transformation. The old adage: give a gift and you keep having to give gifts. Teach one how to give gifts, and they will always have gifts to give. Once all have the Word, gifts no longer are needed.

1 Corinthians 13 does not say the gifts ceased when the canon of Scripture was complete. That is a lie from a spirit, not the Holy Spirit, misquoting half a verse out of context. That's what Satan tried on Jesus when he was tempting Him in the wilderness and failed. Jesus quoted the Word back to him in context.

It is one thing to have opinions about what might be the case, but it is quite another to go teaching opinion as if it is supported by Scripture, when it is not. There is not one Scripture in the whole of the New Testament that says that the gifts of the Spirit were mean to cease when the canon of the New Testament was complete. In fact, healing, prophecy and tongues actually continued in the church right up to the 4th Century, before Constantine brought paganism into the church; and these gifts continued right through to the 12th Century in the Eastern Orthodox church. In fact, the Cessationist doctrine is not part of the RCC or the Eastern Orthodox church.

It is fact that John Wesley had 250 verified healings during his ministry in the 18th Century, including his horse being miraculously healed of lameness. And there are tens of thousands of verified testimonies of believers and non believers miraculously healed of all types of medical conditions. One such testimony occurred in an equipping meeting in Hamilton NZ, where I was part of the group who laid hands on a woman with a diagnosed incurable condition where she could not have children. She conceived that very night after receiving prayer. In a conference that I led, a woman with a chronic back condition who had been in pain for a number of years, was totally freed from pain and had the best night's sleep in years. The pastor emailed me with the testimony. This shows right in my own backyard, the gift of healing is still active in the church.

Also, I have already testified about two people in the church I attended for seven years in Palmerston North New Zealand, who prayed in tongues, and the language was understood by native speakers of the language, and my two friends were speaking the wonderful works of God in those languages.

Also, I have experience in the New Testament gift of prophecy, and have had feedback that the words I gave were totally accurate, even though I had absolutely no knowledge of the particular circumstances of the persons I gave the word to. One guy was so impressed with the accuracy of a prophecy I gave him that he asked me, "Do you eat prophetic corn flakes for breakfast, and drive a prophetic car to work?"

So, if you have never experienced these things, and all you have is a head full of teaching from Cessationist religious teachers, then all you have is opinionated proverbial material that comes from the rear of a horse, instead of solid, sound, Scripture-based knowledge through real experience from real people.

 

[OzSpen]

Pretty sure the word "he" is not in the verse.

Reformed,

1 Cor 13:10 (ESV) reads: 'but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away' (ESV). In the Greek it is:
ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ τὸ τέλειον, τὸ ἐκ μέρους καταργηθήσεται, i.e. hotan de elthē to ek menrous katargēthēsetai. Literally it is translated 'when but it comes (aorist, subjunctive, 3rd person, singular), the perfect/mature thing, the thing in part will be abolished.

What is the mature thing that will come that will lead to the abolition of that which is in part?

The context tells us. In 1 Cor 13:8-12, Paul emphasised what presently was and looked to what would come. In the NIV, he uses language such as:

• v. 8: prophecies, tongues and knowledge will cease;
• v. 9: we know in part but completeness is coming;
• v. 10: when completeness comes, the partial will disappear;
• v. 11: as a child I reasoned like a child; as a man he put away the things of his childhood;
• v. 12: 'For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known'.

Verse 12 is the key to understanding the gifts of the Spirit. Currently (even with continuation of the gifts of the Spirit) we see only a reflection, but THEN 'we shall see face to face' when 'I am fully known'.

There is nothing in this context that states perfection is related to the formation of the canon of Scripture. Nothing! What is here is that perfection will come when we see God face to face and are fully known. That happens after death. Until then, the gifts of the Spirit continue.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

1 Corinthians 13 does not say the gifts ceased when the canon of Scripture was complete. That is a lie from a spirit, not the Holy Spirit, misquoting half a verse out of context. That's what Satan tried on Jesus when he was tempting Him in the wilderness and failed. Jesus quoted the Word back to him in context.

It is one thing to have opinions about what might be the case, but it is quite another to go teaching opinion as if it is supported by Scripture, when it is not. There is not one Scripture in the whole of the New Testament that says that the gifts of the Spirit were mean to cease when the canon of the New Testament was complete. In fact, healing, prophecy and tongues actually continued in the church right up to the 4th Century, before Constantine brought paganism into the church; and these gifts continued right through to the 12th Century in the Eastern Orthodox church. In fact, the Cessationist doctrine is not part of the RCC or the Eastern Orthodox church.

It is fact that John Wesley had 250 verified healings during his ministry in the 18th Century, including his horse being miraculously healed of lameness. And there are tens of thousands of verified testimonies of believers and non believers miraculously healed of all types of medical conditions. One such testimony occurred in an equipping meeting in Hamilton NZ, where I was part of the group who laid hands on a woman with a diagnosed incurable condition where she could not have children. She conceived that very night after receiving prayer. In a conference that I led, a woman with a chronic back condition who had been in pain for a number of years, was totally freed from pain and had the best night's sleep in years. The pastor emailed me with the testimony. This shows right in my own backyard, the gift of healing is still active in the church.

Also, I have already testified about two people in the church I attended for seven years in Palmerston North New Zealand, who prayed in tongues, and the language was understood by native speakers of the language, and my two friends were speaking the wonderful works of God in those languages.

Also, I have experience in the New Testament gift of prophecy, and have had feedback that the words I gave were totally accurate, even though I had absolutely no knowledge of the particular circumstances of the persons I gave the word to. One guy was so impressed with the accuracy of a prophecy I gave him that he asked me, "Do you eat prophetic corn flakes for breakfast, and drive a prophetic car to work?"

So, if you have never experienced these things, and all you have is a head full of teaching from Cessationist religious teachers, then all you have is opinionated proverbial material that comes from the rear of a horse, instead of solid, sound, Scripture-based knowledge through real experience from real people.

Paul,

Two retired missionaries (husband and wife) from Peru came to the Bible study group I lead recently (before COVID-19) and they told of the miraculous exorcisms in which they were involved with people entrenched in spiritism. If they didn't have the gift of exorcism, they would be seen as an impotent group of Christians.

The gifts of the Spirit continued through this couple in Peru.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

1 Corinthians 13 does not say the gifts ceased when the canon of Scripture was complete. That is a lie from a spirit, not the Holy Spirit, misquoting half a verse out of context. That's what Satan tried on Jesus when he was tempting Him in the wilderness and failed. Jesus quoted the Word back to him in context.

Paul,

I think this is way too harsh of a judgment. Many cessationists believe it in good faith as the view taught by the church and many other prominent ministries around the world, e.g. John MacArthur, the late R C Sproul, the late Norman Geisler, etc. In my view, it is an anti-supernatural gifts mentality that has infiltrated the evangelical church.

I know of a Pentecostal church in my region that forbids the exercise of the gifts because people from other denominations (e.g. Presbyterian and Baptists) not come to that church and would be turned away if it were too Pentecostal. I find this to be offensive to the Holy Spirit and pandering to popularity.

Oz

 

[Timtofly]

1 Corinthians 13 does not say the gifts ceased when the canon of Scripture was complete. That is a lie from a spirit, not the Holy Spirit, misquoting half a verse out of context. That's what Satan tried on Jesus when he was tempting Him in the wilderness and failed. Jesus quoted the Word back to him in context.

It is one thing to have opinions about what might be the case, but it is quite another to go teaching opinion as if it is supported by Scripture, when it is not. There is not one Scripture in the whole of the New Testament that says that the gifts of the Spirit were mean to cease when the canon of the New Testament was complete. In fact, healing, prophecy and tongues actually continued in the church right up to the 4th Century, before Constantine brought paganism into the church; and these gifts continued right through to the 12th Century in the Eastern Orthodox church. In fact, the Cessationist doctrine is not part of the RCC or the Eastern Orthodox church.

It is fact that John Wesley had 250 verified healings during his ministry in the 18th Century, including his horse being miraculously healed of lameness. And there are tens of thousands of verified testimonies of believers and non believers miraculously healed of all types of medical conditions. One such testimony occurred in an equipping meeting in Hamilton NZ, where I was part of the group who laid hands on a woman with a diagnosed incurable condition where she could not have children. She conceived that very night after receiving prayer. In a conference that I led, a woman with a chronic back condition who had been in pain for a number of years, was totally freed from pain and had the best night's sleep in years. The pastor emailed me with the testimony. This shows right in my own backyard, the gift of healing is still active in the church.

Also, I have already testified about two people in the church I attended for seven years in Palmerston North New Zealand, who prayed in tongues, and the language was understood by native speakers of the language, and my two friends were speaking the wonderful works of God in those languages.

Also, I have experience in the New Testament gift of prophecy, and have had feedback that the words I gave were totally accurate, even though I had absolutely no knowledge of the particular circumstances of the persons I gave the word to. One guy was so impressed with the accuracy of a prophecy I gave him that he asked me, "Do you eat prophetic corn flakes for breakfast, and drive a prophetic car to work?"

So, if you have never experienced these things, and all you have is a head full of teaching from Cessationist religious teachers, then all you have is opinionated proverbial material that comes from the rear of a horse, instead of solid, sound, Scripture-based knowledge through real experience from real people.

You realize you can defend the truth with the Word of Truth. I am not the one who needs to be convinced here.

 

[OzSpen]

That is why I believe Cessationism is a lie, and they are deceived as to why the gifts ceased in the first place, and wrongly influenced by the widespread counterfeits and misuse of the gifts.

Paul,

I couldn't consider cessationism a lie, but an alternate interpretation of Scripture that needs challenging. Nowhere in the context of 1 Cor 13:10 is it mentioned that 'that which is perfect has come' related to the completion of the canon of Scripture.

I don't consider it a lie but an interpretation that needs further study.

Oz

 

[Paul Christensen]

Paul,

I think this is way too harsh of a judgment. Many cessationists believe it in good faith as the view taught by the church and many other prominent ministries around the world, e.g. John MacArthur, the late R C Sproul, the late Norman Geisler, etc. In my view, it is an anti-supernatural gifts mentality that has infiltrated the evangelical church.

I know of a Pentecostal church in my region that forbids the exercise of the gifts because people from other denominations (e.g. Presbyterian and Baptists) not come to that church and would be turned away if it were too Pentecostal. I find this to be offensive to the Holy Spirit and pandering to popularity.

Oz

I think that it is Cessationism which is the lie, and this does not reflect on the sincerity of many who have that doctrine. I love John MacArthur's ministry and have had my faith mightilty built up through his Bible teaching. Also, many things he says about the Faith movement are quite right and very enlightening to show the invasion of the occult, and pagan mind-control into the Charismatic main-stream.

When I first attended an AOG church in the late 1960s, I came into a church of 400 people all speaking in tongues and prophesying. I even saw a demon being cast out with the guy screaming like a stuck pig. I sat there thinking, "I've never seen a guy die like that before!" But all this never put me off at all. I saw the church in a whole new light, and I gave my life to Christ that night.

It is not the praying in tongues and prophecy that puts people off. It is the wacky out of control stuff and the mass slayings in the spirit (not the Spirit!!!), and people going around whispering "Jesus is here" (like I experienced in a meeting), and expecting people to start shaking and falling over. That is what puts people off.

 

[OzSpen]

When God's Word was complete, those gifts did cease that is not the issue. The church did not use God's Word, especially after adding so much extra to it. Thus those gifts had to creep back in.

I am not saying that your movement totally left the Word behind, but if you yourself deny the doctrine of the verse, your mind is set on the gifts only, because the Word is not complete in your mind. The Word of God does dispell the darkness even in deepest pagan lands. Gifts do dispell as well. If the Word is not made complete and one relies on gifts, then gifts are as far as we get. Which is a shame, because the Word gives way more benefit and complete transformation. The old adage: give a gift and you keep having to give gifts. Teach one how to give gifts, and they will always have gifts to give. Once all have the Word, gifts no longer are needed.

Tim,

God's gifts of the Spirit did not cease when the canon was completed. There have been man documented miracles throughout church history.

Miracles are happening today when missionaries go to a field of mission.

You are out of touch to consider the gifts of the Spirit have ceased and are contrary to the Word of God. Cessationism is not taught in 1 Cor 13:10, it has been imposed on it.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

My understanding is for the Jew in that period upon being truly converted, they experienced maturity, miraculously received maturity.. they did not undergo sanctification as the gentile would.

From where did you gain that understanding?

 

[Waiting on him]

From where did you gain that understanding?

I have no idea

 

[Waiting on him]

From where did you gain that understanding?

That is one strange looking bird.

 

[Paul Christensen]

From where did you gain that understanding?

Not from any version of the Bible that I ever read!

 

[Waiting on him]

Not from any version of the Bible that I ever read!

It has to be read and viewed from a Christ centered perspective. Not self centered.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Tim,

God's gifts of the Spirit did not cease when the canon was completed. There have been man documented miracles throughout church history.

Miracles are happening today when missionaries go to a field of mission.

You are out of touch to consider the gifts of the Spirit have ceased and are contrary to the Word of God. Cessationism is not taught in 1 Cor 13:10, it has been imposed on it.

Oz

The problem that many have with the gift of tongues is the erroneous teaching that it an ecstatic gift, giving the idea that one has to be somehow emotionally hyped up when they speak it. This is aggravated by some Faith movement preachers hyping people up to having kundalini out-of-control, wacky manifestations accompanying the use of the gift, and bringing the gift into disrepute through the hyped up public use of it. This leads those who are seeking the gift thinking they need some sort of emotional "high" before they can launch out in faith to receive it.

Paul said that they prayed with his understanding (his normal language) and in his spirit (tongues). He doesn't say that he prays normally in his understanding language, and then gets all hyped up emotionally to pray with his spirit. In actual fact, he prays normally in a language which he has never learned.

When I was praying in tongues alongside the NZ Maori lady who heard me speaking the praises of God in her own native language, I wasn't hyped up at all. In fact, I was as emotional as a cold fish. I was merely praying in a language I had never learned, and by God's providence, she heard her own language coming out of me. My friend in a prayer meeting was just praying normally with all the others in the meeting, and when he prayed in tongues, the Ghanaian visitor heard his own native dialect, and he stopped the prayer meeting and told my friend what he actually said!

Today, I was thinking about the coming outbreak in Africa where, potentially, millions are going to die and go to a Christless eternity. I felt to pray that God would raise up sound gospel preachers who would get as many saved as possible. I told the Lord that maybe I should feel more emotional about the prospect of millions of souls going to hell, but I don't, and if I tried to pretend to be emotional, He would see that I would just be putting it on and it would mean nothing to Him. So I just prayed quietly. I read somewhere that God is not impressed with a Niagara of emotional "spiritual" words. Sincere prayer doesn't even need words because He can hear the groaning of a person's heart. So, all I could do is to give my request to God in faith, trusting in Him for the outcome.

I was disgusted when I saw a video clip of Sid Roth getting a guy to speak in tongues. What an insult to the Holy Spirit! No wonder people get put off the gifts of the Spirit when they watch video clips like that!

 

[Paul Christensen]

It has to be read and viewed from a Christ centered perspective. Not self centered.

The only way to do that is to read the what the Holy Spirit told us in the Gospels, Acts, and the letters of the Apostles. Outside of that, it is self-centred. God speaks to us through the pages of the Bible, and nowhere else. Anything that is not contained in the pages of the New Testament is stuff just dreamed up out of one's head.

 

[Waiting on him]

The only way to do that is to read the what the Holy Spirit told us in the Gospels, Acts, and the letters of the Apostles. Outside of that, it is self-centred. God speaks to us through the pages of the Bible, and nowhere else. Anything that is not contained in the pages of the New Testament is stuff just dreamed up out of one's head.

Ok, who in you opinion is Paul addressing in Hebrew s 6

 

[OzSpen]

I have no idea

If you don't have a knowledge of the source of your info, I suggest you don't post it as it is nothing more than your opinion.

 

[OzSpen]

The only way to do that is to read the what the Holy Spirit told us in the Gospels, Acts, and the letters of the Apostles. Outside of that, it is self-centred. God speaks to us through the pages of the Bible, and nowhere else. Anything that is not contained in the pages of the New Testament is stuff just dreamed up out of one's head.

Paul,

I think you are going outside the Bible with that conclusion. The gifts of the Spirit include the word of knowledge, word of wisdom, prophecy, tongues & interpretation, etc., all of which are God's supernatural revelation to a person who then delivers the message to the congregation.

While I agree with you that the Scripture will be the primary source of God's speech to us, the gifts are other avenues for His ministry.

Oz