Not by works - but by faith

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bbyrd009

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did I say anything about going up to heaven? if so post where I said that? or is it you trying to put words in someone else mouth, so post where I said going up to heaven

PICJAG.
G, you have made it plain that you expect to get some magical new body in some miraculous supernatural way at some point, and I’m not really interested in splitting hairs with you OK. By all means believe that if you like
 

Eternally Grateful

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ah well my apologies, I missed that, And the verses you posted can be interpreted in a better way, that agrees with the rest of scripture, so you don’t have to ignore the verses that don’t agree with that POV

Ok, Let me know that interpretation.

Spell it out for me
 

Eternally Grateful

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Well, you gotta admit we also have scripture, Quoted, but I will do my best to comply as soon as I get to a computer, OK?

The gist is going to be that all of Paul’s flowery words that suggest some magical transformation may also be interpreted As us, “changing our minds
ok, I look forward to it

Just one question. Paul spoke of a future event,

I thought Paul repented many years earlier when Jesus confronted him on the road to damascus
 

Eternally Grateful

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Ok,yes,and?

Plus with all due respect you cannot Quote “Jesus returning” From anywhere

We do not yet know what we will become see, At least unless we are professing Christians, who all have their “afterlife” all planned out, right?
oh we can not?

I see it in Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Daniel 9, Matt 24, These are but a few verses there are many many more.
 

Tong2020

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Not quite. Im Catholic and I don't find too much of a difference with the Protestant understanding.
In fact we both do the same things. We're both saved which ever way u look at it.

"Born again" for the Protestant come through faith in Christ. Catholics have faith in Christ
Catholics believe it comes with baptism. We don't call it salvation as that ultimately happens after death
We call it sanctifying grace, the grace of Christ. Protestants get baptized too.

If u live a life of bad deeds the Catholics say that u can fall from grace which some Protestants basically agree
The "once saved always saved" people would say that he was never born again in the first place
It's the same conclusion

There is a statement which defines salvation in terms that both parties agree on. Do u know it? I can find it if u want

I just saw that u are Filipino so u are probably Catholic anyway

Greetings Rei!

First, let me tell you, I am not Catholic. Second, let me tell you that you seem to have not gotten the point of my question.

I asked "Did you received God's grace of salvation by good works?". Your answer is "Not quite" and "Catholics believe it comes with baptism. We don't call it salvation as that ultimately happens after death. We call it sanctifying grace, the grace of Christ.". In my understanding of what you say there, you are sanctified rather than saved, and that by baptism. In that case, that means that your answer to my question is NO. For according to your belief, you have received no salvation to begin with. And so, there is no salvation to lose.

You speak of a sanctifying grace, that is, the grace of Christ. Can you tell us what is that grace all about? Can you point to where that is found in the Bible? This way I can understand what it is you believe better.

You said, "There is a statement which defines salvation in terms that both parties agree on. Do u know it? I can find it if u want". Do so, so I could check it out.

You said "If u live a life of bad deeds the Catholics say that u can fall from grace.." Firstly, I like to make it clear that the issue I have here is not about whether one has to live a life of bad deeds or of good deeds. Of course, the Christian should live a life of good deeds. So, having said that, let me go lay down the issue. In my understanding so far of what grace you refer to is the love of Christ. It's just like you saying that works (bad) could separate you from the love of Christ. That is the issue. I had just given you what the chosen and divinely inspired Apostle Paul said and had written regarding that, and I quote again.

Romans 8:38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Can you tell me what you understand Paul was saying there in Romans 8:38?

Tong
R0013
 
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101G

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G, you have made it plain that you expect to get some magical new body in some miraculous supernatural way at some point, and I’m not really interested in splitting hairs with you OK. By all means believe that if you like
so you cannot find it.... well don't try to put words into someone else mouth. and you did it again, "you have made it plain that you expect to get some magical new body in some miraculous supernatural way at some point". I never said that either. that's in your own mind concering someone else. now if you cannot quote me correctly, don't quote me at all. final.

now as for bodies, this is what I believe, 2 Corinthians 5:1 "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Good day.

PICJAG
 

Cristo Rei

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see your trying to make this a protestant thing

Look first u accused me of making it a Catholic vs Protestant thing. Don't now how so i said goodbye
Now u say im making it a Protestant thing. Again I don't know how

I tried my best to present the doctrine which is agreed upon by both the reformed and Catholic churches
To me their the same. Where u see disagreement i see agreement.
Its not worth the argument, i hate arguments about scripture

Anyway God Bless
 
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Cristo Rei

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Greetings Rei!

First, let me tell you, I am not Catholic. Second, let me tell you that you seem to have not gotten the point of my question.

I asked "Did you received God's grace of salvation by good works?". Your answer is "Not quite" and "Catholics believe it comes with baptism. We don't call it salvation as that ultimately happens after death. We call it sanctifying grace, the grace of Christ.". In my understanding of what you say there, you are sanctified rather than saved, and that by baptism. In that case, that means that your answer to my question is NO. For according to your belief, you have received no salvation to begin with. And so, there is no salvation to lose.

You speak of a sanctifying grace, that is, the grace of Christ. Can you tell us what is that grace all about? Can you point to where that is found in the Bible? This way I can understand what it is you believe better.

You said, "There is a statement which defines salvation in terms that both parties agree on. Do u know it? I can find it if u want". Do so, so I could check it out.

You said "If u live a life of bad deeds the Catholics say that u can fall from grace.." Firstly, I like to make it clear that the issue I have here is not about whether one has to live a life of bad deeds or of good deeds. Of course, the Christian should live a life of good deeds. So, having said that, let me go lay down the issue. In my understanding so far of what grace you refer to is the love of Christ. It's just like you saying that works (bad) could separate you from the love of Christ. That is the issue. I had just given you what the chosen and divinely inspired Apostle Paul said and had written regarding that, and I quote again.

Romans 8:38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Can you tell me what you understand Paul was saying there in Romans 8:38?

Tong
R0013


Look I don't want to get into it. I can see the anti-Catholic wave approaching and im getting out of the way.

This is the joint declaration on the doctrine of justification made by the RCC and reformed churches in 1999 which u asked for
By grace alone, in faith in Christ`s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works

So again, for me we are in agreement. Any little detail ur not happy with is fine with me, ok

God Bless
 

Tong2020

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Look I don't want to get into it. I can see the anti-Catholic wave approaching and im getting out of the way.

This is the joint declaration on the doctrine of justification made by the RCC and reformed churches in 1999 which u asked for
By grace alone, in faith in Christ`s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works

So again, for me we are in agreement. Any little detail ur not happy with is fine with me, ok

God Bless

Anti-Catholic? Where is that coming from? Sure not from my post. I was trying to have a conversation with you, which started in post #646, in the following link: Not by works - but by faith

You freely posted. And doing so, you threw in what's in your heart, by the words you've written. And I am trying to understand what is in your heart that you have expressed in your words and perhaps agree or not, and thrown in a few comments. Now, you post obviously to be read by others. Mind you, this is a public forum. If you only want a reply in your post that says what you want to hear, then I am sorry to say, a forum like this seems not to be where you should be. So, I suggest that, you should consider to have a more open mind and heart than you already have. So, would you please reconsider responding to my previous post to you properly and address the issues and the questions brought up there for you to answer? Thanks.

Let me go on and respond to what you say there with regards the joint declaration on the doctrine of justification made by the RCC and reformed churches in 1999. First, that is no scriptures. Second, that is a joint declaration between RCC and "reformed churches" ~ who are these reformed churches? The point is, this joint declaration you are presenting here have nothing to do with the issue/s I brought up to you based on what you posted. While there is a sort of agreement there, the fact is, there is a divide and difference between what Catholics believe and what protestants believe. And it shows right here between you and me, that is why we have this kind of conversation. And this joint declaration does not at all say that we are now all in agreement. Besides, such a declaration only is good and stands up to what is declared. And what is declared there is with the matter of "acceptance" by God which is really different from the matter of the "salvation" of God.

Tong
R0014
 

bbyrd009

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ok, I look forward to it
ha stop you do not either lol
Ok, Let me know that interpretation.

Spell it out for me
ok well i have no facts ok, no proof, no truth whatsoever. So, with that in mind,
Paul spoke of a future event
by way of being inclusive, surely, like he often does; iow Paul spoke of a future event for us, that he had maybe already experienced, or maybe he had in view future generations?

So, all the "flesh cannot inherit" simply means "your spirit has to inherit," and basically the same with all of the other flowery phrases that, if you interpret incorrectly, have a v somewhere else that will directly contradict your interpretation, a la going to heaven or becoming immortal, and the "last trump will sound" well we would have to agree on what and when that is first i guess.

Galileans ("circuit riders," possibly) why do you Stand there looking up at the sky?
oh we can not?

I see it in Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Daniel 9, Matt 24, These are but a few verses there are many many more.
ok, and the v that makes your interpretation of those moot is We do not yet know what we will become, There is only One Immortal, No one has ever gone up to heaven, All go to the same place, You and your sons will be here with me, et al
 
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bbyrd009

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I never said that either. that's in your own mind concering someone else. now if you cannot quote me correctly, don't quote me at all. final.
lol, with the "final" i mean are you stamping yur little foot too g? Now unless you have recently recanted somewhere, you have many times inferred or directly stated everything i said up there, right?
So i mean pls ok, im not meaning to misquote you or put words in your mouth at all, maybe your beliefs have changed since we talked last? Shall i go back in your feed and find a quote? Bc im pretty sure i can do just that eh
now as for bodies, this is what I believe, 2 Corinthians 5:1 "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
ok, fine, so what g, you arent going to become an immortal regardless of how you interpret that i guess, right. Colin Kaepernick maybe, us prolly not
 
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FollowHim

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Look first u accused me of making it a Catholic vs Protestant thing. Don't now how so i said goodbye
Now u say im making it a Protestant thing. Again I don't know how

I tried my best to present the doctrine which is agreed upon by both the reformed and Catholic churches
To me their the same. Where u see disagreement i see agreement.
Its not worth the argument, i hate arguments about scripture

Anyway God Bless

I like this point. When I read scripture, various points leap out at me, not because I choose them, they appear.
Sometimes others share their view, which does not speak to me. I cannot say at some later point I would not agree with the sharer, simply the passage does not often speak to me that way. Sometimes I will definitely disagree but this is often for very specific other reasons, often not mentioned, but I am not here to change anothers perspective.

Now if I believe by sharing my perspective the other party will change their view, it seems there is some value in doing this. Some seem to feel just be defining a perspective their way, that is the way everyone has to agree it should be viewed.
I found this technique used most strongly from muslims. They would say a passage from the Koran means such and such a thing. If they were an Imam, you just accepted that was the way you should see it, dictatorially. In some church environments some teach like this. I have seen believers respond like this, truth is as told, rather than discovered and explored.

I note they often use definitive statements, "no", "you are wrong", "this is the way you should see it".
Once one is trained in critical thinking, one sees every discussion is founded on assumptions and logic, which must be connected and explored. And it is in discovering these foundations, authority and truth is founded.

Occasionally I see the subtle inter-linking ideas which form a vast whole of reality. It makes one very humble to see everything is linked, interwoven, and words always show some aspect of the whole, but never it all. It makes sense as we are focused creatures who concentrate on one thing at a time, rather than being able to see it all. God bless you.