Miracles and certain spiritual gifts

[marksman]

Of course he is mixed up in doctrine. So I don't care if you think it is fair.

Having studied the reform doctrine, I have a belief that everyone who does not subscribe to reformed doctrine is mixed up according to those who are devotees of the reformed doctrine.

 

[Truther]

Dost thou think thus. But I tell thee, behold, they useth not outdated Jacobean English.

LOL!

 

[reformed1689]

Amadeus, having a sensible discussion about faith and spiritual gifts with someone who preaches the reformed doctrine is like a Pentecostal having a discussion with someone from scientology.

A sensible one is one that includes Scripture in context.

 

[amadeus]

Amadeus, having a sensible discussion about faith and spiritual gifts with someone who preaches the reformed doctrine is like a Pentecostal having a discussion with someone from scientology.

Yes, I have learned this really on this forum through this man, 1689, in particular and a couple of his apparently close associates or friends here. They briefly say you are wrong but rarely, if ever, provide scriptural support although assuring you that their answers are absolutely according to the Bible and are Absolute Truth. Apparently they believe should be self-evident to anyone called by God.

I had some lengthy discussions some months ago with 1689, but he has refused to seriously consider anything but his own beliefs and if he talks to God, I really wonder how what kind of a conversation it is? I managed to get a little from him in those discussions, but he doesn't help me or seemingly anyone else to understand. To remember what he did say I would have to go back to the threads and review them. Unless he were to change some basic things, it would not for me be worth the trouble because his heart is closed to me... and I believe, to God.

My memory on newer [to me] things like this "reformed doctrine" is very poor. I can learn new things but only when it is regularly used and/or reinforced. What I have received from God and in my studies of the Bible and what I have heard from many preachers/teachers over the years make this reformed thing extremely 'iffy' to me and without much, if any, real merit.

This thing of simply saying 'I am right and you are wrong' is not reinforcement and certainly not edifying to anyone. Neither is simply saying, 'yes' or 'no'.That 'preacher' fellow who often chimes into our conversation or gives 1689 a 'like' is not any better at explaining what they supposedly believe. Do they really believe that they are already like Jesus? Not the Jesus I know, certainly... I guess that would be what they want to hear from me as confirmation that I am confused or without any understanding of the things of God. Help us dear Lord!

 

[amadeus]

Amadeus, having a sensible discussion about faith and spiritual gifts with someone who preaches the reformed doctrine is like a Pentecostal having a discussion with someone from scientology.

Not quite! My wife's brother is deep into scientology and I get along well with him, but we live in Oklahoma while he lives in San Francisco!

 

[Marymog]

My friend, I received the baptism of the Holy Ghost in 1976. I also received a gift of tongues from God. For many years now I have used this gift of tongues in my daily prayer life with God. It has made a difference to my walk with Him because He has been and is in it. You may disbelieve that, but this for me is something that God put into me and which I have tested with Him and by scriptural studies with others many times.

Your disbelief and logic won't change where I am at the moment... unless God is in the change. People can and do use the written scriptures to support a multitude of conflicting beliefs and doctrines. For every scripture you could post to support your belief, I could probably post another one on the other side. I won't do that with you because from experience of many years, I know that I cannot change anyone's made-up mind. Only God gives "the increase" if there is one to be given. He may use you to do that or He may use me, but when we decide definitely without possibility that only our way is God's Way, we have limited almighty God. He gave us that authority, but He wants us to learn Not to use it.

Even God will not force anyone to change. One of the things I try to do every morning in my communication with God is to open my heart, emptying myself of every belief I hold so that He may change it for me. Sometimes He has. Am I open enough? God knows!

Hi Amadeus,

Your posts always fascinate me. One part in this post that fascinates me the most is when you say that “logic won’t change where I am at the moment.....unless God is in the change”.

Soooooo how do you KNOW when God is in the change? How do you know when something is soooooo logical that the only way it came TO YOU is that it had to come from God?

Curious Mary

 

[amadeus]

Hi Amadeus,

Your posts always fascinate me. One part in this post that fascinates me the most is when you say that “logic won’t change where I am at the moment.....unless God is in the change”.

Soooooo how do you KNOW when God is in the change? How do you know when something is soooooo logical that the only way it came TO YOU is that it had to come from God?

Curious Mary

Remember what James wrote?

"Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded." James 4:8

This double mindedness is a different way of talking about what Apostle Paul meant when he spoke of the 'old man' and the 'new man'. Before we met the Master, the old man of each of us had the dominion in us. What would have been probably the same as the 'new man' was what Adam and Eve had before they disobeyed God. God warned them for He knew that if they disobeyed they would die and they did die and all of their descendants were born dead. Jesus speaks of this here:

"But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." Matt 8:22

Why follow Jesus? Because he brought what Adam and Eve had lost for themselves and for their offspring: Life! He brought Life to the dead! He brought Life so that we dead might live again. Life to replace death!

"... I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

But... until each person, who has met Jesus, has completely overcome all of the ways of death in himself by the power of God, even after he has met Jesus he remains in a measure double minded. When he leans on God and follows the Way of the Holy Spirit the Life in him grows and he becomes more like Jesus. When he leans on his diminished old ways [the 'old man'], he moves away from Jesus and back toward that death [like Lot's wife looking back at Sodom or the dog returning to its own vomit]. Lot's wife and the dog represent the desire of the 'old man' in us wanting to regain the dominion that he had before we met Jesus.

When we win a battle, it is because we have subjected ourselves to the Holy Spirit, for God never loses battles. But God is only in charge of us to extent that we allow Him to be. This is our free will.

You asked the question

"How do you KNOW when God is in the change?"

The answer is when we hear His voice, if we are His sheep, we recognize it.

"And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers." John 10:4-5

Who among us are the sheep and who are the goats? Once a person really is a sheep never to be in any measure a goat, he is no longer double minded so he would always hear His voice clearly. When a person has completely overcome all of the old man and his ways in himself then he would always know what is and what is not of God. How many of us are there?

That we are not to render final judgment against another person for one reason would be is probably because we cannot see clearly the heart of another person so as to render the fair judgment that God would. How does anyone get rid of that double mindedness in himself? By the power of God alone!
*********************
I know that you wanted a simple answer to your question:

The simple answer is that when God is in it, if we are His sheep, we hear His voice when He speaks to us!

"Who hath ears to hear, let him hear." Matt 13:9

 

[reformed1689]

They briefly say you are wrong but rarely, if ever, provide scriptural support although assuring you that their answers are absolutely according to the Bible and are Absolute Truth. Apparently they believe should be self-evident to anyone called by God.

This is a flat out lie to say I and others have not provided Scripture.

Unless he were to change some basic things, it would not for me be worth the trouble because his heart is closed to me... and I believe, to God.

This breaks forum rules

 

[rockytopva]

Calvinism... I had a book ministry at work in which some guy, after reading one of the testimonial books, wanted to get saved but not in my Pentecostal Holiness church. I had a friend I knew as Ray who was Calvinistic Baptist, so off to the Baptist church we went. Well, they had a Franklin Graham testimonial film that Sunday night and my friend goes up to get saved... Only... There is no altar! Some guy gets my friend and takes him to a Sunday School room and begins to talk all that doctrine.... Now get the picture... Here is a guy ready to receive Christ with tears running down his cheek and he is getting doctrinalized! I was thinking to myself for the crying out loud say the sinners prayer! Let him acknowledge Christ so he can go through to salvation!

...The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. - Romans 10:8-9

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. - 2 Corinthians 11:3

The most spiritual people I have met were able to simply acknowledge the Lord Jesus Christ, and then believe in their heart that God raised him from the dead. And then happily go from there. I find myself fearing, along with Paul, that too much doctrine can damage the simplicity of it all. And I believe that encouraging faith is the thing to do in this day and time.

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. - 2 Timothy 3:5

My friend went on to get saved that Sunday night at a Baptist church! I have no regrets on going that evening, even though we are miles apart doctrinally.

 

[amadeus]

@reformed1689

amadeus said: ↑
They briefly say you are wrong but rarely, if ever, provide scriptural support although assuring you that their answers are absolutely according to the Bible and are Absolute Truth. Apparently they believe should be self-evident to anyone called by God.

reformed1689 said:
This is a flat out lie to say I and others have not provided Scripture.

Read more carefully. I said "rarely"... You define that as you will.

amadeus said: ↑
Unless he were to change some basic things, it would not for me be worth the trouble because his heart is closed to me... and I believe, to God.

This breaks forum rules

I stated an opinion. I don't believe that that is against the rules. Was that what you were doing in these two posts about me?

Miracles and certain spiritual gifts
Miracles and certain spiritual gifts

It certainly seems that we disagree, but is that not to be expected in such a discussion?
Help us Lord to listen to You and to peacefully resolve our differences!

 

[marksman]

A sensible one is one that includes Scripture in context.

If that is the case, can you tell me who has applied scripture here out of context and what that scripture is?

 

[reformed1689]

Calvinism... I had a book ministry at work in which some guy, after reading one of the testimonial books, wanted to get saved but not in my Pentecostal Holiness church. I had a friend I knew as Ray who was Calvinistic Baptist, so off to the Baptist church we went. Well, they had a Franklin Graham testimonial film that Sunday night and my friend goes up to get saved... Only... There is no altar! Some guy gets my friend and takes him to a Sunday School room and begins to talk all that doctrine.... Now get the picture... Here is a guy ready to receive Christ with tears running down his cheek and he is getting doctrinalized! I was thinking to myself for the crying out loud say the sinners prayer! Let him acknowledge Christ so he can go through to salvation!

...The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. - Romans 10:8-9

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. - 2 Corinthians 11:3

The most spiritual people I have met were able to simply acknowledge the Lord Jesus Christ, and then believe in their heart that God raised him from the dead. And then happily go from there. I find myself fearing, along with Paul, that too much doctrine can damage the simplicity of it all. And I believe that encouraging faith is the thing to do in this day and time.

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. - 2 Timothy 3:5

My friend went on to get saved that Sunday night at a Baptist church! I have no regrets on going that evening, even though we are miles apart doctrinally.

mischaracterization caricature....

 

[Heart2Soul]

Wisdom from the past.....
“ Sir, my concern is not whether God is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on God's side, for God is always right.” — Abraham Lincoln.
Tact: the ability to describe others as they see themselves.-Abraham Lincoln
I have always found that mercy bears richer fruits than strict justice.-Abraham Lincoln

I think it's noteworthy that the Almighty didn't act high and mighty. The Holy One wasn't holier-than-thou. The One who knew it all wasn't a know-it-all. The One who made the stars didn't keep his head in them. The One who owns all the stuff of earth never strutted it.
Max Lucado

 

[Rita]

Remember what James wrote?

"Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded." James 4:8

This double mindedness is a different way of talking about what Apostle Paul meant when he spoke of the 'old man' and the 'new man'. Before we met the Master, the old man of each of us had the dominion in us. What would have been probably the same as the 'new man' was what Adam and Eve had before they disobeyed God. God warned them for He knew that if they disobeyed they would die and they did die and all of their descendants were born dead. Jesus speaks of this here:

"But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." Matt 8:22

Why follow Jesus? Because he brought what Adam and Eve had lost for themselves and for their offspring: Life! He brought Life to the dead! He brought Life so that we dead might live again. Life to replace death!

"... I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

But... until each person, who has met Jesus, has completely overcome all of the ways of death in himself by the power of God, even after he has met Jesus he remains in a measure double minded. When he leans on God and follows the Way of the Holy Spirit the Life in him grows and he becomes more like Jesus. When he leans on his diminished old ways [the 'old man'], he moves away from Jesus and back toward that death [like Lot's wife looking back at Sodom or the dog returning to its own vomit]. Lot's wife and the dog represent the desire of the 'old man' in us wanting to regain the dominion that he had before we met Jesus.

When we win a battle, it is because we have subjected ourselves to the Holy Spirit, for God never loses battles. But God is only in charge of us to extent that we allow Him to be. This is our free will.

You asked the question

"How do you KNOW when God is in the change?"

The answer is when we hear His voice, if we are His sheep, we recognize it.

"And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers." John 10:4-5

Who among us are the sheep and who are the goats? Once a person really is a sheep never to be in any measure a goat, he is no longer double minded so he would always hear His voice clearly. When a person has completely overcome all of the old man and his ways in himself then he would always know what is and what is not of God. How many of us are there?

That we are not to render final judgment against another person for one reason would be is probably because we cannot see clearly the heart of another person so as to render the fair judgment that God would. How does anyone get rid of that double mindedness in himself? By the power of God alone!
*********************
I know that you wanted a simple answer to your question:

The simple answer is that when God is in it, if we are His sheep, we hear His voice when He speaks to us!

"Who hath ears to hear, let him hear." Matt 13:9

Hi Amadeus, this has nothing really to do with the ongoing discussion, but I just wanted to thank you for your response ......I am just working through some things, and the way you have explained doubled mindlessness has really helped me , and was Godly timed xx
Will use it to meditate on this morning xx
Rita.

 

[Bobby Jo]

Bobby Jo said: ↑
By inference, you demand that the Disciples also took a PURSE and a BAG to the Garden, for what? -- A PURSE to bribe the officials? A BAG with a pillow and blankets so they would be comfortable while sitting in jail?

But the PURSE, BAG, and SWORD are NOT guidance for the Garden. It's guidance for LIFE.

Unless I'm wrong and they TRIED TO BRIBE the officials with their PURSE, and TRIED TO BE COMFORTABLE while in jail with their BAG, then YOU need to OBEY Jesus' final instructions! [/quote]

I infer nothing. ...

Then why the PURSE and the BAG. You ascribe the SWORD to the Garden event, but what about the the PURSE and the BAG. -- If the SWORD is a Garden event, then so too the PURSE and BAG.

OR -- the PURSE, BAG, and SWORD are all three LIFE INSTRUCTIONS:

Lke 22:35 And he said to them, “When I sent you out with no purse or bag or sandals, did you lack anything?” They said, “Nothing.” 36 He said to them, “But now, let him who has a purse take it, and likewise a bag. And let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one.​

So OBEY, -- or ignore it to your detriment!
Bobby Jo

 

[Bobby Jo]

It seems to me that before we claim "hearing voices", we should simply OBEY what Scripture clearly states. And if the two agree, then maybe there's a path forward. However, if Scripture DISAGREES, then our "hearing" is not of GOD.

So are you going to obey Lke 22:35-36, or do you hear a "different" voice?

Bobby Jo

Are we sheep in His flock or not? ...

If you OBEY Jesus, then you are of HIM:

Lke 22: 35 And he said to them, “When I sent you out with no purse or bag or sandals, did you lack anything?” They said, “Nothing.” 36 He said to them, “But now, let him who has a purse take it, and likewise a bag. And let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one.​

But if you don't obey Jesus, then you've judged yourself GUILTY,
Bobby Jo

 

[Mussa Jakotis]

It is my belief that God is not giving out the gift of miracles and spiritual gifts in these end times such as healing, tongues, etc.
I believe that since the early churches He has not given out the gift of miracles nor speaking with tongues.

It's really simple. The only reason God shew miracles unto His servants was to make them believe
in Him, so they could then put their trust and faith in Him.

The same goes for the miracles done through God's servants. All the miracles were done to make people believe
that God is who He says He is.

Miracles were done to make people believe in God.

The only reason the early church and disciples were given these powers was to establish the church, by making
people believe their testimonies of Jesus Christ. Miracles were an aid to get people to believe.

John 9:1-3
"And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him,
saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered,
Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him."

We don't need miracles in these end times. There is so much evidence of wickedness and Satan's kingdom that it is
enough. Just look at the abundance of satanic occult symbols
everywhere. Those that seek the truth with all their heart and mind will find God,
or rather that God will lead them to Him.

It's that simple. God doesn't need miracles to prove to people that He is God, that the Bible is the truth.
He has other means to bring people to Him now.

If you see anyone doing "miracles" openly, I believe it is completely fake or done through demons.

G

And the actual Scriptural reference to support your opinion is....

God does not change with time.He is the same yesterday,today and Forever.Miracle dont happen these days because Preacher shifted to Gospel of Prosperity,Mojority dont even pray and Fast.Much Prayers,Fasting,Faith and Knowledge of the word of God Required for Miracles to occur.

 

[Paul Christensen]

G


God does not change with time.He is the same yesterday,today and Forever.Miracle dont happen these days because Preacher shifted to Gospel of Prosperity,Mojority dont even pray and Fast.Much Prayers,Fasting,Faith and Knowledge of the word of God Required for Miracles to occur.

I suggest you do a little more research about the Charismatic movement in general and not just a small part of it that is heretical.

 

[marksman]

Yes, I have learned this really on this forum through this man, 1689, in particular and a couple of his apparently close associates or friends here. They briefly say you are wrong but rarely, if ever, provide scriptural support although assuring you that their answers are absolutely according to the Bible and are Absolute Truth. Apparently they believe should be self-evident to anyone called by God.

I had some lengthy discussions some months ago with 1689, but he has refused to seriously consider anything but his own beliefs and if he talks to God, I really wonder how what kind of a conversation it is? I managed to get a little from him in those discussions, but he doesn't help me or seemingly anyone else to understand. To remember what he did say I would have to go back to the threads and review them. Unless he were to change some basic things, it would not for me be worth the trouble because his heart is closed to me... and I believe, to God.

My memory on newer [to me] things like this "reformed doctrine" is very poor. I can learn new things but only when it is regularly used and/or reinforced. What I have received from God and in my studies of the Bible and what I have heard from many preachers/teachers over the years make this reformed thing extremely 'iffy' to me and without much, if any, real merit.

This thing of simply saying 'I am right and you are wrong' is not reinforcement and certainly not edifying to anyone. Neither is simply saying, 'yes' or 'no'.That 'preacher' fellow who often chimes into our conversation or gives 1689 a 'like' is not any better at explaining what they supposedly believe. Do they really believe that they are already like Jesus? Not the Jesus I know, certainly... I guess that would be what they want to hear from me as confirmation that I am confused or without any understanding of the things of God. Help us dear Lord!

I may be wrong but I don't think so but I am on another discussion board and they are quite different from this one. If you so much as say one word wrong they come down on you like a ton of bricks. Even colloquialisms are forbidden and you are certainly not allowed to tell the truth if the words you use are down to earth.

They deleted one of my posts because it showed a picture of a dismembered baby as a result of abortion. They said it was aggressive and insulting.

In dialogue with them, I realized they were reformed people who ran the Board. No grace of any kind. The rule of law was the be-all and end-all of their existence. When they threw me off a couple of years ago I asked them about the scripture of being forgiven 70 x 7 and asked if they believed that. They said yes but you are still being banned. Apparently, because I challenged them and whatever the scripture says you are not allowed to challenge them in any shape or form even if you are right, because they are never wrong.

 

[Truther]

I may be wrong but I don't think so but I am on another discussion board and they are quite different from this one. If you so much as say one word wrong they come down on you like a ton of bricks. Even colloquialisms are forbidden and you are certainly not allowed to tell the truth if the words you use are down to earth.

They deleted one of my posts because it showed a picture of a dismembered baby as a result of abortion. They said it was aggressive and insulting.

In dialogue with them, I realized they were reformed people who ran the Board. No grace of any kind. The rule of law was the be-all and end-all of their existence. When they threw me off a couple of years ago I asked them about the scripture of being forgiven 70 x 7 and asked if they believed that. They said yes but you are still being banned. Apparently, because I challenged them and whatever the scripture says you are not allowed to challenge them in any shape or form even if you are right, because they are never wrong.

May I ask which forum did that to you?