The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[RogerDC]

If you are doing works not out of gratitude. Then it must be from your own power

Prove it. Your nonsense “theology” is pure speculation.

For starters, works are necessary in order to GAIN salvation, because we need good works to be sanctified and thus JUSTIFIED (James 2:24). Good works don’t come AFTER being “saved”. You’ve got it back-to-front!

 

[prism]

Prove it. Your nonsense “theology” is pure speculation.

For starters, works are necessary in order to GAIN salvation, because we need good works to be sanctified and thus JUSTIFIED (James 2:24). Good works don’t come AFTER being “saved”. You’ve got it back-to-front!

You’re kidding right? How many good works must you perform until you are saved?

 

[CharismaticLady]

That’s right - Paul says we are not saved by works - ie, works alone - ie, works without faith - as in “without faith it is impossible to please Him” (Heb 11:6). He is not referring works with faith - as has been explained to you many times, but you keep making the same dumb mistake and keep misinterpreting the same Scripture. Paul makes it clear in his letters that we are not saved by faith alone, but by faith and works. If Paul preached salvation through faith without works, he is clearly contradicting other NT writers, just as James, who says “a man is justified by works and NOT BY FAITH ALONE” and “faith WITHOUT WORKS is DEAD”. It doesn’t get any clearer than that.

If Paul preached salvation through faith without works, he would have contradicted John, who described the “saints” as “ those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus” (Rev 14:12). John also said, “And by this we may be sure that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says ‘I know Him’ but disobeys His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in Him …” (1John 2:3-5).

If Paul preached salvation through faith without works, he would also have contradicted Peter:
“As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as He who called you is holy, be HOLY yourselves in all your conduct, since it is written, ‘You shall be holy, for I am holy’. And if you invoke as Father Him who judges each one impartially according to his DEEDS, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile” (1Peter 1:14-17).

In Gal 5, Paul says to believers, “Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God” (Galatians 5:19-21). Paul is clearly warning believers that their sins can result in them not making it to Heaven - in other words, Paul is preaching faith and works.

In case, you haven’t noticed, good “works” is obeying God’s commandments, which is “sanctification”, which leads to “justification”, which leads to salvation (Romans 6:15-22). To not obey God’s commandments is practise sin (aka evil “works”), which leads to eternal death (Romans 6:23). Surely you haven’t interpreted this verse to mean that believers don’t sin? No, of course you haven’t - no one could possibly be that stupid.

Besides, 1John 1:8 says “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us”. Believers have free will and so they can choose to practise sin, and they often do. Faith doesn’t turn believers into robots that don’t sin - all believers sin.In 1Cor 6:9-11, Paul uses the word “unrighteous” in the context of those who practise sinful DEEDS (aka WORKS). He is not referring to non-believers - there is no mention at all of faith or a lack of faith in this passage. You completely miss the point of the passage - Paul is warning believers (“Do not be deceived”) that their DEEDS - aka their WORKS - can destroy their hope of salvation - in other words, he is preaching salvation through faith and works.

In reading your post, I thought you had a typo in 1 John 2:5 when you said, "love for God." I remember it to be love of God. So I looked up that verse in many translations and most are of God, but a couple are for God. And one amplified version said love of and for God. LOL

 

[CharismaticLady]

Prove it. Your nonsense “theology” is pure speculation.

For starters, works are necessary in order to GAIN salvation, because we need good works to be sanctified and thus JUSTIFIED (James 2:24). Good works don’t come AFTER being “saved”. You’ve got it back-to-front!

cc: @Eternally Grateful

The way I see works is, before repenting and receiving Christ's Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38), man tried by his own sinful nature to do good and keep the Old Testament commandments. The law failed because of the weakness of the nature of man. So any good works to be good enough would never be good enough to be saved. Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. But that was the Old Covenant.

That is why the New Covenant is not law, but the SPIRIT. The Spirit changes our old nature by taking the desire to sin out of it. We now are able to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh, and thus the good we now can do is righteous.

 

[RogerDC]

You’re kidding right? How many good works must you perform until you are saved?

Please explain what "good works" are? There are good works and evil works - what are they?

If you are saved by faith alone, how much faith do you need to be saved?

 

[RogerDC]

In reading your post, I thought you had a typo in 1 John 2:5 when you said, "love for God." I remember it to be love of God. So I looked up that verse in many translations and most are of God, but a couple are for God. And one amplified version said love of and for God. LOL

As far as I know, they mean the same thing.

 

[mailmandan]

That’s right - Paul says we are not saved by works - ie, works alone - ie, works without faith - as in “without faith it is impossible to please Him” (Heb 11:6). He is not referring works with faith - as has been explained to you many times, but you keep making the same dumb mistake and keep misinterpreting the same Scripture.

It's actually you who keeps making the same mistake by misinterpreting the same scripture and there is a reason for that. (1 Corinthians 2:14) NOWHERE does Paul say we are saved by faith and works, but you are more interested in what Catholicism teaches than you are in what scripture actually teaches.

Paul makes it clear in his letters that we are not saved by faith alone, but by faith and works.

Show me just one verse in the Bible where Paul specifically says we are saved by faith and works. I'll save you the trouble it's NOWHERE to be found. Catholicism, Mormonism and Campbellism and other false religions and cults may teach salvation by faith and works, but that is not what Paul teaches. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..)

If Paul preached salvation through faith without works, he is clearly contradicting other NT writers, just as James, who says “a man is justified by works and NOT BY FAITH ALONE” and “faith WITHOUT WORKS is DEAD”. It doesn’t get any clearer than that.

As I have already explained numerous times, in James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

*So "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith, which is like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. Just as a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. (James 2:26) If someone merely says-claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, (James 2:14) then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. Simple!

If Paul preached salvation through faith without works, he would have contradicted John, who described the “saints” as “ those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus” (Rev 14:12).

Yes, those who have been saved through faith are "described" as those who "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. Paul did not say that we are saved based on the merits of keeping His commandments. Paul did not say that we are saved by grace through faith and keeping His commandments in Ephesians 2:8,9. You must not confuse "descriptive" passages of scripture with "prescriptive" passages of scripture. Otherwise you end up with salvation by faith and works, as erroneously taught in Catholicism. - The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works

John also said, “And by this we may be sure that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says ‘I know Him’ but disobeys His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in Him …” (1John 2:3-5).

Another "descriptive" passage of scripture. 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. 4 The one who says, I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Perverting the gospel by teaching salvation by faith and works (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) is not the demonstrative evidence of keeping His commandments. (Galatians 1:6-9)

If Paul preached salvation through faith without works, he would also have contradicted Peter: “As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as He who called you is holy, be HOLY yourselves in all your conduct, since it is written, ‘You shall be holy, for I am holy’. And if you invoke as Father Him who judges each one impartially according to his DEEDS, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile” (1Peter 1:14-17).

Paul already clearly stated that God imputes righteousness apart from works/not of works/not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us/God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) We are saved through faith apart from the merit of works, yet authentic faith does not remain apart from the presence of works. *Learn the difference. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is evidenced by works (James 2:14-26). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified based on Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony* :)

In Gal 5, Paul says to believers, “Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God” (Galatians 5:19-21). Paul is clearly warning believers that their sins can result in them not making it to Heaven - in other words, Paul is preaching faith and works.

Absolutely false. You don't even understand what a genuine believer is. In verse 21, Paul clearly states that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. In 1 John 3:9, we read - No one who is born of God practices sin.. You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.

In case, you haven’t noticed, good “works” is obeying God’s commandments, which is “sanctification”, which leads to “justification”, which leads to salvation (Romans 6:15-22). To not obey God’s commandments is practise sin (aka evil “works”), which leads to eternal death (Romans 6:23). Surely you haven’t interpreted this verse to mean that believers don’t sin? No, of course you haven’t - no one could possibly be that stupid.

Sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a sinless, perfect life 100% of the time (which we won't) we are still justified by faith. (Romans 5:1) Did Paul say justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1? NO. Simply faith "apart from additions or modifications - "faith alone." Roman Catholics seem to confuse justification with ongoing sanctification and end up turning justification into a process. What a mess!

Besides, 1John 1:8 says “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us”. Believers have free will and so they can choose to practise sin, and they often do. Faith doesn’t turn believers into robots that don’t sin - all believers sin. In 1Cor 6:9-11, Paul uses the word “unrighteous” in the context of those who practise sinful DEEDS (aka WORKS). He is not referring to non-believers - there is no mention at all of faith or a lack of faith in this passage.

I never said that believers never sin. I said those who are born of God/believers do not practice sin. (1 John 3:9 - NASB) There is a difference. The unrighteous practice sin - (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21) not the righteous, who are born of God - (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9). The "unrighteous" (unbelievers) are not the righteous (believers).

You completely miss the point of the passage - Paul is warning believers (“Do not be deceived”) that their DEEDS - aka their WORKS - can destroy their hope of salvation - in other words, he is preaching salvation through faith and works.

This is absolutely FALSE and it's you who continues to miss the point and until the blinders are removed, I will just continue to waste my time beating a dead horse.

That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works is not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT. It's a shame that human pride will not allow works-salvationists to trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to receive Christ through faith. *To avoid further slander, I am clarifying that I define "works-salvationists" as those who teach that salvation is by faith (their version of faith) and works.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So u don't repent when u sin?

If I find out I did something I did not know what sin and I thought was ok. Yes
If I commit a sin and I already knew it was sin (say like get angry or selfish) then I can;t repent. I already acknowledged it was sin.

Do I confess them? Yes

Im not saying everyone is anti-Catholic, just some people
I can only speak from experience, as I said I never even knew what a Protestant was until recently.

I was on another Christian forum and for the first 6 months was great. Then I started to get hostile responses. One post was like
"where in the bible does it say this or this or this or this" and went on and on about all these Catholic doctrines that aren't biblical

So I asked why she had brought up all these things as none of them were being discussed. I just received more hostile responses
She said it was because of my avatar picture of Jesus Sacred Heart and cursed it. I didn't even know it was a Catholic thing.

I started to realize that when I had changed my avatar to the Sacred Heart was when people changed their tune
I began a thread to find out and it was true. That was discrimination, that was hate, and there is no excuse for it

I think if you go into a Calvin or Armenian type thread you will see the same. Sadly people are pre-disposed to hate what they do not agree with, especially when it concerns Christianity. I think it is something we see in the churches, I remember growing up a baptist and thinking all others were lost. And I would say things and act in a way that was not Christlike, because that is the way I saw my father and church leaders act..

I will say this, There are some questions that are valid. Was Mary a virgin? Are all the statues at roman cathedrals idols or graven images, Is the rosary truly christian, or the acts of penance. And the eucharist, Is it truly the flesh and blood of John 6?

The problem is, many Catholics are offended if you even ask, no matter if it is asked in sincerity wanting to know. And at the same time, many of those asking push, thinking it may change a Catholics view (which it never will, I have yet to see one catholic repent of his believe in any of those areas and do not expect one to.) So while I will enter a discussion on the eucharist, I try to stay out of the others. because in my view, they are a waste of time

How would my parents who came from tiny European villages in a Catholic country even know what a Protestant was, u guys aren't that big.
U really think that Catholic schools train students in debating Protestants. Again, u guys aren't that big.
Im 42yo and only recently found out what Protestants were. Like I said, u guys just aren't that big.

I could take this as an insult right here..

But I am sure your being honest.

I live in a city in the eastern united states, in my city, If we took all the churches which are here. The catholic church would probably come in as one of the smallest delegations when we compare what they would call catholic vs protestant.

Alot of the mainstream churches are closing their doors. Its almost sad when I go through small towns, and I see these huge Lutheran or catholic or Methodist churches that where a large part of the community, boarded up. Or re-engineered to be a public school, or some small non denominations group is meeting there.

I don't get offended over disagreements. I myself even disagree with some Catholic doctrines.
I don't like seeing all this division but, in fact learning about all this has been really painful

I would suggest just remembering it happens on all sides.. Look at some of your brothers who mocked me yesterday because I believe in biblical (not calvinistic) predestination. and when I even shared what I believe, I was told, I was talking out of the side of my mouth. ( he basically called me a liar) Not that it bothered me, I consider the source, and move on.. they told me right there what kind of people they are. The best thing to do is when people get that way just ignore them, they are not worth it.
I am sorry you have felt attacked in the past. I pray you do not feel that here.. and if I ever offend you, please let me know.. Thats the last thing I would ever want to do

 

[mailmandan]

No, of course not - In Matt 7:21-23, Jesus is not addressing “saved believers” - he’s addressing unsaved believers.

Simply believing in the existence of Jesus Christ and in certain facts about Him does not make you a believer (in the Biblical sense of someone who is saved). You still don't understand what a genuine believer is.

Where did they get power to prophesy, cast out demons and perform miracles in Jesus’ name, if not from Jesus?

The power is in Jesus' name and not in the person. Did Jesus validate their ministry? Jesus said to them, "I NEVER knew you, depart from me you who work iniquity." John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people in Matthew 7:22-23 were not true converts. Period.

Are you saying there are no false prophets who do these things in Jesus' name? Matthew 24:4 - And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. In verse 24, we read - For false Christ's and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

This is nothing new. Even in the Old Testament in Jeremiah 14:14, we read - And the Lord said to me, The prophets prophesy lies in My name. I have not sent them, commanded them, nor spoken to them; they prophesy to you a false vision, divination, a worthless thing, and the deceit of their heart.

So, according to you, Jesus chose an “unbelieving, unclean devil” to be an apostle? And not only that, Jesus sent this “unbelieving, unclean devil” out to preach and also gave him the power to cure all diseases and cast out demons? Is this a joke?

It's no joke. In John 6:64, we read - But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. In John 13:10-11, we read - Jesus said to him, "He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you." For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, "You are not all clean." In John 6:70-71, we read - Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?" He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. So why did Jesus choose Judas? The typical answer from a works-salvationist is that Judas must have been saved, yet in John 13:18, we read - I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; BUT that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.'

So again, in Matthew 10:1, we see that Jesus gave His 12 disciples power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. This would include Judas Iscariot, yet Jesus referred to Judas Iscariot as an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Him. (John 6:71; 13:10-11). Apparently, Judas believed that Jesus' name has the power to cast out demons but did not truly believe in His name (John 1:12) and become a child of God, but instead was the son of perdition (John 17:12).

Btw, how come Psalm 41:9 describes Judas as a “bosom friend” to Jesus, whom Jesus “trusted”? Matt 7:21-23 doesn’t say anything about fake exorcisms. You’re clutching at straws. Believers are believers - whether they do the “right things” or not.

It's you who is grasping for straws. *BTW, in Psalm 41:9, David wrote this psalm about Ahithophel who was one of David's official counselors (2 Samuel 15:12). As David's friend, Ahithophel defected from the king and joined in Absalom's conspiracy. It is evident that there is messianic connotation given to this verse because Jesus quoted it in speaking of Judas Iscariot in John 13:18. Although David said mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, Jesus deleted this reference when He used it of Judas. ;) Do you really believe that Jesus (God in the flesh) truly trusted an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Him? (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) Don't be so naive.

 

[mailmandan]

You’re kidding right? How many good works must you perform until you are saved?

Exactly! How many good works must he accomplish and "add" as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Christ save him? Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:24-28) No supplements needed.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It is a free will issue - without free will you cannot choose to love. That's why God gave humans free will - so that they could choose to love Him or not.

Show me a person who has been rescued (saved) from a horrific death by another person who needs encouraged to love that person.


Like I said, it is not a free will issue, People who have been rescued (saved) by God, love him, because they KNOW what they were saved from.


And again, The fact you do not see it, only makes me wonder.

If you use your free will to love, then according to your own theology, that means you are using your "own power" to obey God's commandment to love others, which according to you is trying to "earn your salvation", isn't it?

What? Are you saying that before you became a believer, you had no capacity to love? If so, you must have something wrong with you. You're saying that as a infant growing up, you had no love for anyone, not even your mother. How very odd.
Atheists fall in love all the time, get married and have children whom they love. Please explain how they can love without God.
If you had no love in you before God came along, then doesn't that mean whatever "love" you have now is not yours, but God's?

I doubt you will read. or expect to be mocked, but here goes. Maybe this will help you understand my thinking

its like this, If you have a car that is in perfect running condition, but it has no gas, It will not run. You can put all kinds of different fuels in the tank, But if it is not the proper fuel, it will not run..or it will run, But not like it is supposed to. It will have no power. Once you put the proper fuel in it, It is now able to function in a way in which it was created to do

We, Like that car, Were created for a purpose. That purpose was for God, to love and care of us (the proper fuel) when Adam sinned, Gods love stopped. He was unable to supply that love because sin had brokered a barrier between God and man which could not be penetrated

God tried to show us this vision in the tabernacle system, You had the children of Israel in a camp, in the middle of that camp was a tabernacle, Inside that tent, was the Ark of the covenant, Which was said to be the presence of God. However, NO ONE could enter that tent except for the high priest. And he could only enter through being cleansed by animal sacrifice. Then we had the temple. Same issue, Only man could enter, and then only once a year. and then ONLY if he was cleansed himself (by blood) ad if he failed. he immediately died (they had to tie ropes to them in case they had to pull them out)

This shows the serious condition we are in. And why the book of Hebrews makes it clear. without the shedding of blood. there can be no forgiveness

So since the fall. Mankind has tried to fill their fuel tanks (the Hole left when the link or relationship between God and man was broken) with anything they can. Sex, Drugs, Power, Money anything they can use, But this is not the proper fuel. It will not cause the thing created to act as it was created. Thats why you have people committing suicide when in our view, they have everything they could ever need. Many a rock star or wealthy business person have commented when they have it all. I have anything a man could desire, yet I still feel empty. Well the reason is simple. The only fuel which can fill that Hole is God.

It is his love, His blood sacrifice, that caused the veil to be torn in two between the most holy place and the outside world. And it is this greatest of all love God has offered us, which fills that Hole left from sin (ie, he fills our fuel tank, But he does not just fill it, he keeps filling it making sure it never runs dry), and empowers us to act in the way we were created. (eph 2: 10) By loving God. And by Loving others. No longer do we have to love self. because all our needs are met. That is what empowers us to love.

Why you do not see or understand this, I can not fathom. All I can do is pray God shows you this..

 

[Cristo Rei]

If I find out I did something I did not know what sin and I thought was ok. Yes
If I commit a sin and I already knew it was sin (say like get angry or selfish) then I can;t repent. I already acknowledged it was sin.

Do I confess them? Yes

See i wouldn't know the difference between confess and repent. Im a fairly uneducated Catholic. Yes I was born and raised by Catholics and went to a Catholic high school but it was very liberal and my parents only have a basic knowledge of Catholicism.
I turned away from God when I was a teen, went down the wrong path and ended up behind enemy lines.
Then i spent another 10 years coming back to the light. My understanding of Christianity was so blissfully ignorant

Do u guys do confirmation? Those handful of statements? Do u reject Satan and his evil ways, do u accept Christ as son of God and a few others
I thought that was it, along with the bible. I thought there was only a handful of other churches and i thought it was one big happy family
Coming back and finding God was an unexplained joy. Learning about religion in the past year has been gut wrenchingly painful

After reading the bible my first thoughts were why the hail Mary's. My parents are Portuguese and i thought it was an obsession only that country had with Fatima. I became so distressed learning about the Marian dogmas that came from thin air, questioning the Holiness of the Fatima apparition and others. I pray often (not hail Mary's) for the salvation of my parents, for if they have been deceived by an angel of light with false signs they will need the grace of Christ.

So i went onto a Catholic forum to get some answers. I learnt that Catholic people were these softly spoken, pious, holy people like my parents and their friends. They were nuts. I thought Protestant was some kind of an insult at first cos that's what they kept calling me as i probed for answers to these Marian dogmas. Who are these Protestants they keep comparing me to. Thats when i learnt about the reformation and sola scripture and i saw that the arguments i was using had already been used by Protestants for 500 years. After being labelled a heretic and a blasphemer so many times i questioned weather or not i was even a Catholic seeing i didn't believe the Marian dogmas i didn't think I qualified though a priest told me it didn't matter. So I started looking for another church. It was like getting lost in a maze so i just stayed put.

I could take this as an insult right here..

But I am sure your being honest.

I live in a city in the eastern united states, in my city, If we took all the churches which are here. The catholic church would probably come in as one of the smallest delegations when we compare what they would call catholic vs protestant.

My apologies i came across as being hostile i think there trying to explain that there was no apologetics 101 for me.

Looking at wikipedia; 30% of Aussies have no religion, 23% Catholic, 13% Anglican, 16% other Christians. Is Anglican like Protestant or are they Church of England, product of Henry the 8th. I don't even know. But 30 years ago there would of only been 5% no religion and close to 50% Catholic but it felt like 75%. A lot of European immigrants here from Catholic countries. Thats why the Protestant/ Catholic divide isn't evident here at all

I will say this, There are some questions that are valid. Was Mary a virgin? Are all the statues at roman cathedrals idols or graven images, Is the rosary truly christian, or the acts of penance. And the eucharist, Is it truly the flesh and blood of John 6?

It depends what u mean by valid really. I could say that the only thing that is truly valid is Christ and our salvation
U guys still believe Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus, or not?
Some of the arguments the Catholics use is like nails on the chalkboard. Why does Mary's sex life even matter anyway

If Mary was a perpetual virgin who are these brothers and sisters of his?
"Oh their cousins, it's the same word". But no its not. Both the Greek and Hebrew languages have different words for cousin
"But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son" Response, remove the word until
I mean there are doctrines that aren't found in the bible but this one is in direct contradiction

Graven images. To be fair the bible does say not to bow down and worship them. That's when the line gets stepped over, and it does by some

Is the Rosary Christian. I have to say no. I remember asking why do we worship Mary "oh we don't worship, we....."
Like what. Why would i use Mary's internet connection. I have to send it to her for her to send it to God. And the speed is limited 10Mbs
I can use Gods internet connection, direct 100Mbs.

Acts of penance. I had to look that up. Is that just praying after confession? Don't understand the fuss

The Eucharist. I know but again I find it somewhat irrelevant

Give me more, that was fun... LoL...
How about purgatory, i think i have a better explanation than the RCC
Purgatory could be Hades/Sheol, i don't know why the RCC doesn't use this argument, they have no good explanation for Hades and its appearance in Revelation 20. The definition of the final judgement and the events before it in the CCC is a little disjointed

I would suggest just remembering it happens on all sides

True, I coped it from the Catholics for being like a Protestant. Then I coped it from some Protestants for being a Catholic... LoL
U will rarely see me get involved in such debates. Hostility, anger, hate, division, i don't see God, I see Satan
I haven't even seen in a full blown battle between the two and i don't even want to see it.
I think both sides would do well just to mind their own advanced doctrines
What their doing shouldn't concern us

I am sorry you have felt attacked in the past. I pray you do not feel that here.. and if I ever offend you, please let me know.. Thats the last thing I would ever want to do

Thankyou very much I appreciate your hospitality. People here have been great but so far

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Paul says, “Strive for … the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12:14). In other words, he is saying, “Strive to keep His commandments, without which no one will get to Heaven” - which is in effect, a warning. So if I am tempted to sin (ie, to disobey a commandment), and I recall and take heed of Paul’s warning, and don’t sin (ie, obey a commandment), you claim this amounts to “earning my salvation”. In that case, what do you think I should do - give into the temptation and sin, or resist temptation and not sin?

And another question, if I may, if I don’t sin because of heeding Paul’s warning - which according to you is “earning my salvation” - have I sinned? That is to say, is attempting “earn my salvation” a sin?

Well if your going to do that

You better live up to Gods standard. Which both moses and paul said was perfection.

You want to put yourself under law and not under grace. I do not know what to say. other than I am sad

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Prove it. Your nonsense “theology” is pure speculation.

For starters, works are necessary in order to GAIN salvation, because we need good works to be sanctified and thus JUSTIFIED (James 2:24). Good works don’t come AFTER being “saved”. You’ve got it back-to-front!

Prove it

The penalty of sin is death, What work can overcome death?

Paul. not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, (titus 3: 5)

Paul Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt., That debt is unpayable. so we must be saved by Grace (romans 4)

Paul, And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. Rom 11: 6

Paul, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Paul - And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

And our works proceed out of being made this new creation in Christ

Paul, For we (those saved by grace through faith and not works) are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

You want to focus on James who was fighting licentious people who CLAIM to have faith, But have ZERO works, PROVING their faith was dead. Who have NEVER been saved, Were NEVER a part of the body of Christ and were NEVER made a new creature

We are saved by faith, if our faith is dead (lifeless) it CAN NOT SAVE US

You too. fall under number three.. And call me, number one. But we have come to expect it.

people who follow the Gospel # 1 think they are number 2 and call grace people followers of number three. because we push their growth and call out their sins.

People who follow number three, call # 2 people # 1. Because they too think they are number 2. And can not see the works they are attempting to do to earn or maintain salvation is really works.

Strive to enter by the narrow Gate.. That gate is not number 1 or number 3 in my examples I gave yesterday of the 3 prominent gospel on earth.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

cc: @Eternally Grateful

The way I see works is, before repenting and receiving Christ's Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38), man tried by his own sinful nature to do good and keep the Old Testament commandments. The law failed because of the weakness of the nature of man. So any good works to be good enough would never be good enough to be saved. Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. But that was the Old Covenant.

That is why the New Covenant is not law, but the SPIRIT. The Spirit changes our old nature by taking the desire to sin out of it. We now are able to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh, and thus the good we now can do is righteous.

yes I agree

But if your doing these good deeds to maintain salvation. Your no different than those in the OT trying to earn Gods love by following a law they could never truly follow.

And in doing so. you will fail to meet Gods demands, just as they did (see gal 3)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You’re kidding right? How many good works must you perform until you are saved?

Amen

they demand works are required. But when push comes to shove, they do not know how many works will ensure they are saved,

 

[prism]

Please explain what "good works" are? There are good works and evil works - what are they?

If you are saved by faith alone, how much faith do you need to be saved?

We are not saved ‘by faith’ but by Jesus Christ and His perfect righteousness and saving work for us. Saving faith trusts in Him and Him alone.

btw, you never did answer my question, ...”How many good works must you perform until you are saved?”

 

[Jane_Doe22]

It's actually you who keeps making the same mistake by misinterpreting the same scripture and there is a reason for that. (1 Corinthians 2:14) NOWHERE does Paul say we are saved by faith and works, but you are more interested in what Catholicism teaches than you are in what scripture actually teaches.

Show me just one verse in the Bible where Paul specifically says we are saved by faith and works. I'll save you the trouble it's NOWHERE to be found. Catholicism, Mormonism and Campbellism and other false religions and cults may teach salvation by faith and works, but that is not what Paul teaches. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..)

As I have already explained numerous times, in James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3)..

This whole thing is a straw man argument.

Everyone believes that salvation is a gift of God and no one can "earn" it. Everyone also believes that if you say you are saved that you acts in life should show some evidence of that. Nobody actually believes in cheap grace (talk only), and nobody believes that man "earns" salvation by works.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

See i wouldn't know the difference between confess and repent. Im a fairly uneducated Catholic. Yes I was born and raised by Catholics and went to a Catholic high school but it was very liberal and my parents only have a basic knowledge of Catholicism.
I turned away from God when I was a teen, went down the wrong path and ended up behind enemy lines.
Then i spent another 10 years coming back to the light. My understanding of Christianity was so blissfully ignorant

When you confess something, You go and admit you have done something, ie, You go to a judge, or go to your parents, and confess or state what you did wrong. we call it take ownership.

To repent means to change direction or change your mind. If I was committing a sin, and I did not think that sin was a sin, or i never gave it a thought, to repent would be for me to admit, ok, yes this is a sin, I was wrong in my thinking, and I now agree with God.

we have repent for salvation, when we change our view about self. And repent, or change to the point we see our self from the eyes of God (a sinner worthy of death)

either way when we repent, we have the capicity to trust God, in righting our state from being his enemy and dead because of sin, and making us alive in Christ. Or simply having faiht iin God that this sin we did not think is a sin is a sin, and I need healed from the power this sin has over me

Does this help?

Do u guys do confirmation?

I do not see this anywhere in scripture. In scripture in the NT a person was added to the church body when they were baptized.

Those handful of statements?

Not sure what you mean

Do u reject Satan and his evil ways, do u accept Christ as son of God and a few others

I rejected satan the moment I accepted Christ as son, Savior and Lord.

I thought that was it, along with the bible. I thought there was only a handful of other churches and i thought it was one big happy family
Coming back and finding God was an unexplained joy. Learning about religion in the past year has been gut wrenchingly painful

After reading the bible my first thoughts were why the hail Mary's. My parents are Portuguese and i thought it was an obsession only that country had with Fatima. I became so distressed learning about the Marian dogmas that came from thin air, questioning the Holiness of the Fatima apparition and others. I pray often (not hail Mary's) for the salvation of my parents, for if they have been deceived by an angel of light with false signs they will need the grace of Christ.

Praise God, Keep praying, God can still work.. we never know the future, so we must keep praying!

So i went onto a Catholic forum to get some answers. I learnt that Catholic people were these softly spoken, pious, holy people like my parents and their friends. They were nuts. I thought Protestant was some kind of an insult at first cos that's what they kept calling me as i probed for answers to these Marian dogmas. Who are these Protestants they keep comparing me to. Thats when i learnt about the reformation and sola scripture and i saw that the arguments i was using had already been used by Protestants for 500 years. After being labelled a heretic and a blasphemer so many times i questioned weather or not i was even a Catholic seeing i didn't believe the Marian dogmas i didn't think I qualified though a priest told me it didn't matter. So I started looking for another church. It was like getting lost in a maze so i just stayed put.

I learned this, Most of the "history" churches (like the catholics and reformers) are so focused on what happened in history, it seems that the war which started back then still is happening today. And if you sit back and watch them all fight and attack each other it can be amusing, it if were not for the fact. It gives God a bad name, I mean think of it. Who wants to follow this man of whom those who are his followers cannot even get along. Its sad.

Thats also why I think we need to stick to the word. And not these historical figures many hold dear. Which does not help.. People look for key words. Like OSAS. and when they see it, They assume the person is a Calvinist, so they discussion is flawed from the beginning. because it does not matter what the other person says, the one arguing against him assumes he is Calvinist and has made his mind up. That goes for catholic, Armenian, Lutheran Baptist.. Its like a war. I hate baptists or I hate Catholics, these people who I think are apposed to me, So I will attack them before they even get a chance to start in on me.. and false assumptions false ideas about the other person are at the for front, and there is never any possible reason for humble discussion about anything, Just back and forth bickering and attack. It is sad.

Post is too long, need to break it up.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

continued

My apologies i came across as being hostile i think there trying to explain that there was no apologetics 101 for me.

Looking at wikipedia; 30% of Aussies have no religion, 23% Catholic, 13% Anglican, 16% other Christians. Is Anglican like Protestant or are they Church of England, product of Henry the 8th. I don't even know. But 30 years ago there would of only been 5% no religion and close to 50% Catholic but it felt like 75%. A lot of European immigrants here from Catholic countries. Thats why the Protestant/ Catholic divide isn't evident here at all

I do not know all these things

To me a christian is anyone who claims to follow Christ. If we look in the gospels. Anyone who followed christ were called disciples. Now of course, we learned that not all disciples were true believers. In the same token, not all people who claim to be christian are true christian.

The catholic church should be called a christian church, and should not be separated. At least in my view. Now whether or not they are true Christians. Well we should leave that to God right? I can challenge their gospel as they can challenge mine, But hopefully it is a humble discussion in love and not all this hate we see from both sides (yes, i acknowledge that the catholic church is attacked also)

It depends what u mean by valid really.

I meant valid questions. An example is you have every right to ask me why I believe in a pre-millenial end times view, Why I believe in anything I may believe. Just like it is a perfectly valid question to ask catholics about their views. With out being jumped on for asking a question

I could say that the only thing that is truly valid is Christ and our salvation

I think other things are valid to. But again, I was talking about a question being valid. ie not to be taken as an attack if people ask.

U guys still believe Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus, or not?

Yes. But We do not believe she died a virgin, as some do

Some of the arguments the Catholics use is like nails on the chalkboard. Why does Mary's sex life even matter anyway

I agree. I think the reason people ask. is if they can get someone to see one doctrine is in error. Maybe they can get the person to question other doctrines. But 99% of the time that does not work.

If Mary was a perpetual virgin who are these brothers and sisters of his?
"Oh their cousins, it's the same word". But no its not. Both the Greek and Hebrew languages have different words for cousin
"But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son" Response, remove the word until
I mean there are doctrines that aren't found in the bible but this one is in direct contradiction

I agree

Graven images. To be fair the bible does say not to bow down and worship them. That's when the line gets stepped over, and it does by some

Hence. what is the definition of worship. And hence, why it is a hard argument to really prove.

Is the Rosary Christian. I have to say no. I remember asking why do we worship Mary "oh we don't worship, we....."
Like what. Why would i use Mary's internet connection. I have to send it to her for her to send it to God. And the speed is limited 10Mbs
I can use Gods internet connection, direct 100Mbs.

Agree 100% brother

Acts of penance. I had to look that up. Is that just praying after confession? Don't understand the fuss

I guess it is how you look at it and definitions vary.. it is found in one of the apocryphal books. But no place else in the OT.

The Eucharist. I know but again I find it somewhat irrelevant

To me this one is imprtant, considering what it represents

Does it represent the food which endures to eternal life (john 6) or the take often in remembrance of me which does not endure to eternal life,
If I remember right, Forgiveness of some sin is found here? Correct me if I am wrong

Give me more, that was fun... LoL...
How about purgatory, i think i have a better explanation than the RCC
Purgatory could be Hades/Sheol, i don't know why the RCC doesn't use this argument, they have no good explanation for Hades and its appearance in Revelation 20. The definition of the final judgement and the events before it in the CCC is a little disjointed

Purgatory is a place where ones sins which were not redeem while alive, could be paid for. and allow the person who died to still make it to heaven, and be freed from final judgment (hell)

True, I coped it from the Catholics for being like a Protestant. Then I coped it from some Protestants for being a Catholic... LoL
U will rarely see me get involved in such debates. Hostility, anger, hate, division, i don't see God, I see Satan
I haven't even seen in a full blown battle between the two and i don't even want to see it.
I think both sides would do well just to mind their own advanced doctrines
What their doing shouldn't concern us



Thankyou very much I appreciate your hospitality. People here have been great but so far

I agree here, I came in looking for spirited discussions, to see if I can help others, or be helped by learning things I have never heard. Sadly sometimes it is a war zone..lol
in the future