The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[Jane_Doe22]

This Mormon woman personally told my wife and I about her experience. My wife has RLDS and LDS relatives and I’m familiar with their doctrines.

I'm an LDS lady and have lots of Evangelical relatives / in-laws whom ... frankly everything the "know" about what i believe is very much "anti-cult" BS and they don't care to get facts straightened out. The fact that I love Jesus Christ completely terrifies them.

If you and your wife are different and actually approach your family with real understanding and love of them, then I am happy to hear it.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

what lies would those be?

Oh there's a whole mountain of them: "demon-worshipers", "cultists", "non-Christian", etc.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Oh there's a whole mountain of them: "demon-worshipers", "cultists", "non-Christian", etc.

I would just look at their gospel. and determine there.

I have read the book of mormon. Its been awhile. And I think I still have it..

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I would just look at their gospel. and determine there.

I have read the book of mormon. Its been awhile. And I think I still have it..

A good & commendable approach.
It's just important to get the best quality information from direct sources. There's a lot of really bad ones out there.

 

[RogerDC]

yes I was baptized (washed) by God himself

And I approach him by faith, and out of this faith, I receive his love, which empowers me to love others. which causes me to bear fruit (works) which produces righteousness.

When God "empowers" you "to love others", does this involve your free will?

 

[RogerDC]

Nope.

She did it BECAUSE she was saved, and for the same reason I do it. Out of gratitude and love for My savior who made me white as snow and adopted me into Gods family as his dear child. where I will be forever.

Tabitha was saved? How do you know that? Did she send you a postcard from Heaven?

Where did you get this "gratitude" theory? Where in the Bible does anyone say, "I'm saved, so I'm going to do good works as a sign of my gratitude"? Where does it say believers do good works out of gratitude?

 

[RogerDC]

Nope.

She did it BECAUSE she was saved, and for the same reason I do it. Out of gratitude and love for My savior who made me white as snow and adopted me into Gods family as his dear child. where I will be forever.

Maybe Tabitha was trying to "earn salvation" - how do you know what her motive was?

You accuse Catholics of trying to "earn their salvation" by doing good works and acts of charity - how do know Tabitha was not also trying to earn her salvation by doing good works and acts of charity?

 

[Cristo Rei]

yes I was baptized (washed) by God himself

And I approach him by faith, and out of this faith, I receive his love, which empowers me to love others. which causes me to bear fruit (works) which produces righteousness.

Nice one. I really think the Catholic vs Protestant thing is blown out of proportion
Both do exactly the same things and are saved which ever view you use
God Bless

 

[Cristo Rei]

I have a friend who became a Mormon. Didn't think much of if until his wedding. Atop of the church spire was a golden figure blowing a trumpet.
Thinking it was a saint i asked someone who it was, "Joseph Smith" they proclaimed, he is their prophet.
We entered the church as the ceremony was beginning but every thing stopped and we were asked to leave the church.
Apparently only Mormons are allowed in the church. After that I learnt all about their beliefs and was really surprised.

The whole story of how the angel appeared to Smith and directed him to these golden tablets is hard to believe.
It gets even harder to believe given the fact that he didn't show them to anyone and how he would put his head in a basket to translate them.
The language which it was written in was put to experts to figure out. They concluded that the text was of no known language on earth.
Aside from that their doctrine includes many other things that are unique to only them

 

[Eternally Grateful]

When God "empowers" you "to love others", does this involve your free will?

When did God remove free will?

This is not even a free will issue

I have no capacity to love UNTIL God loves me. It is his love that empowers me to love others.

Does it mean I Always chose to share that love? Well if I did I would be perfect. and I am not. no one is, So do the math

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Tabitha was saved? How do you know that? Did she send you a postcard from Heaven?

Where did you get this "gratitude" theory? Where in the Bible does anyone say, "I'm saved, so I'm going to do good works as a sign of my gratitude"? Where does it say believers do good works out of gratitude?

If you are doing works not out of gratitude. Then it must be from your own power

I think that is all we need to know right there.

If you have no gratitude for what God did for you. Then there is nothing I can say that will help you..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Nice one. I really think the Catholic vs Protestant thing is blown out of proportion
Both do exactly the same things and are saved which ever view you use
God Bless

They may both do the same thing,

But I think the motive of why they do it is different.

but even then, it is still nto a catholic vs protestant thing, Because many protestants do it for the same motive as the Catholics.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I have a friend who became a Mormon. Didn't think much of if until his wedding. Atop of the church spire was a golden figure blowing a trumpet.
Thinking it was a saint i asked someone who it was, "Joseph Smith" they proclaimed, he is their prophet.
We entered the church as the ceremony was beginning but every thing stopped and we were asked to leave the church.
Apparently only Mormons are allowed in the church. After that I learnt all about their beliefs and was really surprised.

The whole story of how the angel appeared to Smith and directed him to these golden tablets is hard to believe.
It gets even harder to believe given the fact that he didn't show them to anyone and how he would put his head in a basket to translate them.
The language which it was written in was put to experts to figure out. They concluded that the text was of no known language on earth.
Aside from that their doctrine includes many other things that are unique to only them

Actual member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saint (nick named "Mormon") here going to clarify things.

Your friend was not getting married at his local church building where he attends church each week, partakes of the Lord's Supper, has Sunday School etc. You (or anyone else) are indeed welcome to come, ask whatever, and celebrate Christ with us.

Now zooming to your friend's marriage. There's two components of a wedding: A) the religious and B) the secular/civic side. I'll talk about both.

A) He was simply getting civically married like you would at a courthouse. Rather, there's strong belief in the religious aspect marriage: that this is an extremely sacred ceremony wherein he, his bride, and God are making promises to each other to be unified together not just for this mortal life but forever. It's viewed as being very sacred religious thing, and hence only a very few guests and just simple religious rite putting God first.

B) Secular/Civic: besides the religious rite, your friend of course is welcome to have any secular traditions he would like separately and whomever comes. Stuff like a million flowers, bridesmaids, aisle walking, ring exchange, reception, dancing, etc. Almost all LDS Christian couples will have these as well, and invite a ridiculous amount of people.


Anyway, any other questions let me know!

 

[Cristo Rei]

They may both do the same thing,

But I think the motive of why they do it is different.

but even then, it is still nto a catholic vs protestant thing, Because many protestants do it for the same motive as the Catholics.

By the "same thing" i meant the things we do for our salvation; baptize, faith in Christ, repent, follow in his footsteps (good deeds)
Which is why i said their both saved which ever view you have

I think by "it" u may be talking about the hostile attacks.
What puzzles me is that Protestants don't attack the Orthodox and other Protestant churches despite having different doctrines

Literally tens of thousands of denominations yet only the RCC cops so much hate, why? Anyone?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

By the "same thing" i meant the things we do for our salvation; baptize, faith in Christ, repent, follow in his footsteps (good deeds)
Which is why i said their both saved which ever view you have

I did not do any work to get saved, I am saved by grace through Christs work on the cross. and his work of showing me the truth of his word.
If I could work to be saved, Jesus would never have had to come.

I think by "it" u may be talking about the hostile attacks.
What puzzles me is that Protestants don't attack the Orthodox and other Protestant churches despite having different doctrines

Literally tens of thousands of denominations yet only the RCC cops so much hate, why? Anyone?

I think it is not so much that they attack the Catholics only. I think the catholic church unlike the orthodox or other churches are more offended.

If I say I disagree with the Eucharist to an orthodox, a Lutheran and a catholic. The catholic will be the one who say I am attacking him because I hate his church.

Most of the time , the orthodox and Lutheran will just discuss with me, without being offended.

I think it may be part of the Catholic stigma and how they train their people to respond. Just the fact they call anyone who is not them a protestant sort of helps confirm that theory.. I pray I am wrong though

 

[Illuminator]

By the "same thing" i meant the things we do for our salvation; baptize, faith in Christ, repent, follow in his footsteps (good deeds)
Which is why i said their both saved which ever view you have

I think by "it" u may be talking about the hostile attacks.
What puzzles me is that Protestants don't attack the Orthodox and other Protestant churches despite having different doctrines

Literally tens of thousands of denominations yet only the RCC cops so much hate, why? Anyone?

The forum is designed that way. There are no Catholic moderators or representatives. It's not just the forum, our entire culture is geared to despise Catholicism.

There is a big difference between healthy, charitable discussion and persecution. Unfortunately, it takes a certain amount of education and discernment to tell the difference.

 

[Cristo Rei]

I did not do any work to get saved, I am saved by grace through Christs work on the cross. and his work of showing me the truth of his word.
If I could work to be saved, Jesus would never have had to come.

Are you saying you don't have follow Christ or repent?

I think it is not so much that they attack the Catholics only. I think the catholic church unlike the orthodox or other churches are more offended.

That is simply untrue. A look at the internet proves this
I found so much anti-Catholic stuff that iv decided to dig deeper to understand where its coming from and why

I think it may be part of the Catholic stigma and how they train their people to respond

Im sorry but this is also incorrect
I was raised in a Catholic family and went to a Catholic high school but I didn't even know what a Protestant was until 8 months ago

If I say I disagree with the Eucharist to an orthodox, a Lutheran and a catholic. The catholic will be the one who say I am attacking him because I hate his church

Going by my experience on Catholic forums i wouldn't be surprised. There are some that are indignant

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The forum is designed that way. There are no Catholic moderators or representatives. It's not just the forum, our entire culture is geared to despise Catholicism.

There is a big difference between healthy, charitable discussion and persecution. Unfortunately, it takes a certain amount of education and discernment to tell the difference.

See this is what the issue is, The thought that everyone is out to get you. It is called the martyr syndrome

The entire culture is not out to despise catholicism.. This is just something that has been conjured up Most people I know. have no thoughts on the roman catholic church at all.. My neighbor is catholic. I lover her as a sister. And her kids. I worry about her. But I do not hate her or her church.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Are you saying you don't have follow Christ or repent?

I repented appriximately 40 years ago. And this lead me to faith i Christ. I have been following him for the most part ever since.

That is simply untrue. A look at the internet proves this
I found so much anti-Catholic stuff that iv decided to dig deeper to understand where its coming from and why

I could find stuff on all kinds of churches, Does it mean they are hated.

Prety much every catholic I even try to have a discussion with, goes to the "Hate" card when I try to have any discussion concerning anything they believe. even if the only thing I did was share my belief, and was not even talking to them (notice I said almost. Not all have done this, I have had some meaningful conversations with catholics who do not get so offended when someone disagrees with them)

Im sorry but this is also incorrect
I was raised in a Catholic family and went to a Catholic high school but I didn't even know what a Protestant was until 8 months ago

Your one of the very few.. In fact, your the only catholic I have ever met who has said this.. And I know MANY

Going by my experience on Catholic forums i wouldn't be surprised. There are some that are indignant

I have had quite a few discussions with a few Catholics here. I would say the hate and attacks have been toward myself and others. Not towards them. But they are the ones who are screaming hate and that they are being attacked

I will say this, I am confident in my faith, But also know. I am still learning. If I get ffended because someone disagrees with me, Well then I have issues I need to respolve

But I do not want to argue this, Would you like to discuss the word? or will you be offended if I disagree with you?

 

[Grailhunter]

I believe I already explained it . . .

As we read in 2 Pet. 3:8 - God is not bound by time. He sees ALL of time simultaneously and is present at every event in time simultaneously. As such, He knows what HAS happened, what IS happening and what WILL happen.
Man has a free will - to choose to follow God or to reject Him. God already knows which of us have chosen to follow Him and thosr who have chosen to reject Him.
THIS is His "foreknowledge".

God is not a monster who sends people kicking and screaming into Hell against their will - nor does He drag anybody into Heaven kicking and screaming against their will. He does not coerce us to follow Him nor does He ordain those who reject Him.
He gives US that choice.

One of the funny misconception in the Bible is that 2nd Peter 3:8--> with the Lord one day is a thousand years and a thousand years as one day....means many things...like you say in all time. The magic of time keeping in the scriptures like 39 hours adds up to be three day. The phrase with the Lord one day is a thousand years and a thousand years as one day....actually means right now...whenever you say....today. To prove that point read it in context with the next verse. I give you that as a funny, but I mostly agree with you. The Trinity perceives time and interacts with it differently than us. The science of it is interesting.

And of course I agree with this,
God is not a monster who sends people kicking and screaming into Hell against their will - nor does He drag anybody into Heaven kicking and screaming against their will. He does not coerce us to follow Him nor does He ordain those who reject Him.
He gives US that choice.