the 4 horsemen--ancient or now?

[Heart2Soul]

So when you read that a creature opens a seal, and then something reacts to that, like peace being taken from the earth, do you think this is only a symbolic representation of something to take place in history, or do you think that it's something that will literally happen in the future? In other words, do you think this is literally and chronologically what will happen in the future, or do you think this is just designed and coordinated so John could relate what will happen through a series of symbolic visions?

I believe there will literally be peace taken from the earth, and I think that has been happening throughout NT history. But opening the seal is just a symbolic prop to show the meaning behind the event that is to take place. A literal seal is not to be opened in the future. It was already opened when Christ redeemed us. But it is shown as being opened in the future to convey an event that resulted from that past event, namely the death of Christ.

We have, for example, Ezekiel asked by God to go through a number of symbolic dramas to project a future judgment against Israel. He set up a little diorama just to show Israel, in symbolic terms, what will happen. Eze 4.

But can you imagine that as Ezekiel goes through this little enactment that Israel would look on him and view this building of a diorama as the actual future event, namely people building future little dioramas and not actually suffering the judgment it represented? Do you think the fact Ezekiel got down on his knees that somehow this reflects something that was to literally happen in the future, that an angel would get down on his knees before the judgment of Israel?

I believe Ezekiel getting down and setting up this siege works was designed to be symbolic of the future siege of Babylon against Israel. How Ezekiel acted in setting up the diorama had no prophetic significance whatsoever. And neither did John being caught up to heaven, being led into the wilderness, or watching vision after vision take place have any prophetic value. This was just how John saw the visions so that he could relate their meaning to us!

And that's what I think a lot of people do with the book of Revelation. John is caught up to heaven and shown things about the future in symbolic terms, seeing seals opened, trumpets blown, and vials poured out. It is the height of foolishness, I think, to believe that in the future real seals will be opened, trumpets blown, and vials poured out. And when John is caught up to heaven or taken to a wilderness, some think that these are things that will actually happen in the future, instead of merely representing how John saw these things, representing, in symbolic fashion, events that will happen in the future.

"First I saw, then I saw, then I saw" only represent the sequence in which John saw a variety of visions. Never do the visions themselves say the sequence in which John saw them represent a timing order in which these events will be fulfilled in history. It never meant that 1st one trumpet will be fulfilled, then another trumpet will be fulfilled, then another trumpet will be fulfilled, in chronological fashion. These are just the order in which John saw them, and what John had to do to see them. The chronology in which John related what he had to do to see the Revelation and to relate the visions were not intended to be the chronological order in which the visions themselves would be fulfilled!

When there is silence in heaven for half an hour, do you think that will literally take place, or do you think John is just shown the gravity of what will take place in the next vision? Do you think that when lightning flashes and thunders sound with event after event that each historical event these visions represent will be accompanied by literal lightning and thunder? Or do you think they are just props in which John saw the visions, to communicate to us how they relate to final judgment?

How you interpret the Revelation really matters, because if we misuse the symbols we will not understand the fulfillment. If we read a chronology into the series of visions John received, when no such timing sequence is indicated, then we are misrepresenting the Revelation entirely and misrepresenting the narrative as an ordered chronology according to the sequence of the visions. And this was only the order in which John saw them--not the order in which they will be fulfilled!

Zechariah had 10 visions and the 4 chariots closely resembles the 4 horses in Revelation...so is Zechariah's visions nothing but symbols?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes, this is the only interpretation of the four horsemen that makes any sense at all. There is the "beginning of sorrows" which started long ago, and then there is the "last days", which in revelation begins with the opening of the sixth seal. This is one of the key differences between the Olivet Discourse and revelation. The former says the Great Tribulation comes first before the "Day of the Lord", while the latter says the exact opposite, that the "Day of the Lord" ushers in the Great Tribulation. The former says the seventh trumpet ushers in the Day of the Lord and the rapture, but the latter says the seventh trumpet ushers in the last 3 1/2 years of the Great Tribulation, and THEN the rapture.

Where do the Scriptures say "the Day of the Lord ushers in the Great Tribulation?" Where do the Scriptures say "the seventh trumpet ushers in the last 3.5 years of the Great Tribulation?"

I see no such thing. I see the Day of the Lord as the Day of Christ's Return, the 2nd Coming. And it ushers in the Kingdom of God--not the Great Tribulation.

And I see the Great Tribulation as the Jewish Dispersion after 70 AD, which is clearly what Jesus said it was in Luke 21. It was the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, therefore, that sparked the "Great Tribulation," which was the Jewish Diaspora.

The typical belief that the "Great Tribulation" is the period of Antichrist's Reign is a misinterpretation of the Olivet Discourse. Plainly, Jesus defined the "Great Tribulation" as the Jewish Dispersion starting after 70 AD. How can it be read any other way? Honestly!

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

 

[Randy Kluth]

Zechariah had 10 visions and the 4 chariots closely resembles the 4 horses in Revelation...so is Zechariah's visions nothing but symbols?

Symbols used in prophecies are just that--symbols. The actual events they symbolize are literal and real.

Things like "silence in heaven for half an hour" do not represent a time period to be fulfilled, but only the way John saw this vision in symbolic terms. It showed the gravity with which heaven sees the event about to be fulfilled.

To make the "silence in heaven" to be more than just the process in which John saw the vision is adding to the prophecy. The prophecy itself is not the "silence in heaven," but actually the thing that is being drawn attention to, namely the prophecy that follows the "silence in heaven."

When it says "John saw this, and then John saw that," the order in which he saw these visions does not bear upon the chronology of the fulfillments--only the process by which John saw the visions. That's what I'm saying.

 

[101G]

He has 7 Spirits, correct? Could that apply in anyway?

first thanks for the reply, second, no, 7 Spirit, is a revelation that he is "complete". notice the capitalization in "Spirit", for there is NO OTHER God beside him. for there is nothing outside of God. in modern terms ... "He is it, THE TOTAL PACKAGE, all in all".

listen to these verses, so that you can see without a doubt that there is no, and we mean no other person,m nor Spirit as in 6 more.... (smile).
#1. Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." (God is "a" Spirit, meaning only ONE), so there is no other "Spirits".

#2. Isaiah 44:8 "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." (if God himself who knows all thing, said he knows not any beside him, well that settles that).

#3. Isaiah 45:21 "Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me." (again no other outside of him).

so no, there are not 7 Spirits to God, some say it's "seven " gifts of God, but I doubt that, for the gifts listed in Isaiah and 1 corinthians are for his church, and he has many, many, many more gifts, and those are also available to the world.

so I hope that helped that it's only one Spirit.

(but I think I know what you're getting at, "Smile").

PICJAG.

 

[marks]

When there is silence in heaven for half an hour, do you think that will literally take place, or do you think John is just shown the gravity of what will take place in the next vision? Do you think that when lightning flashes and thunders sound with event after event that each historical event these visions represent will be accompanied by literal lightning and thunder? Or do you think they are just props in which John saw the visions, to communicate to us how they relate to final judgment?

How you interpret the Revelation really matters, because if we misuse the symbols we will not understand the fulfillment. If we read a chronology into the series of visions John received, when no such timing sequence is indicated, then we are misrepresenting the Revelation entirely and misrepresenting the narrative as an ordered chronology according to the sequence of the visions. And this was only the order in which John saw them--not the order in which they will be fulfilled!

So no ceremony in the heavenlies?

No real seals, no real trumpets, no censor, no bowls. No war between Michael in the dragon? Nor dragon cast down to the earth?

I take it as describing something that happens, for instance, yes, an half hour of silence between the opening of the seventh seal and the sounding of the first trumpet.

Let me ask you. Will there be a world wide earthquake as marked by the sixth seal? Is this describing a geological seismic event? Or some other kind of shaking.

Why would we not think there will be silence in heaven for half an hour after the opening of an actual scroll? I have no issues with things being symbolic if the text tells us this is a symbol. But otherwise I take things pretty much at face value.

Let me put it this way. Let's say that the Revelation is "the best God could do" while communicating with puny little humans, and that obviously there aren't literal scrolls and locusts and the abyss and all that stuff!

How do you then go about interpreting the book? There becomes a double hermenuetic, if you will, where, in the case of some symbols, those identified in the text, you will be able to follow a repeatable hermaneutic, that is, someone else who approaches the text in the same way that you do, looking to see what is a symbol and what does it mean, they will see the same things you do, as they are there in fact to be seen.

What is the meaning of a scroll? Of that scroll? Is it only a device to express that 7 things will be forthcoming?

I propose that it is the scroll of redemption of Israel. The scroll remains sealed until the time comes for Jesus to assert His right and redeem them.

Many will say that it's the "title deed to the earth", I don't. But that's the problem. What is this scroll? I'm thinking a sealed scroll that will be opened.

But when we leave the Biblical language of horseman and trumpet and 1/2 hour and such, we lose it's usefulness, and are required to add our own. That is to say, God frames these parts of the revelation in certain ways, a throne room, elders and living creatures and radiances of light, a scroll and a Lamb opening the seals.

I think that these are the ways God is forming our minds, the mind of Christ within us.

The revelation of Jesus Christ. With all of it's pageantry and wonder!

Shall we take these scenes of heavenly glory as God interacts with His creation exactly as portrayed? Or understand them to mean something different, where we each one decides for them self what that would be, for lack of clarifying Scriptures?

Will you enter heaven upon the crystal sea to stand before the throne?

I'm hoping I give an adequate flavor of how I see this book of prophecy.

Much love!

 

[marks]

So when you read that a creature opens a seal, and then something reacts to that, like peace being taken from the earth, do you think this is only a symbolic representation of something to take place in history, or do you think that it's something that will literally happen in the future? In other words, do you think this is literally and chronologically what will happen in the future, or do you think this is just designed and coordinated so John could relate what will happen through a series of symbolic visions?

I think that there is a time that would be able to be marked in history, as this happens in the heavens, the same continuum as ours, that there will be a time when Jesus, the Lamb Slain, will take and open the scroll, and redeem His people, Israel.

It is the time of Jacob's trouble, but he will be saved through it.

And as Jesus opens this scroll, the horsemen ride forth, angels sent on God's bidding, I'm not saying holy angels necessarily, sent to

1. begin and accomplish the rise of the beast
2. turn society hostile to itself
3. turn economies against man
4. turn ecology against man

That these will begin just prior to the start of the 70th week, which I think is marked in the heavenly ceremony by 1/2 hour of silence. Let's say that God actually was expressing the gravity of the occasion. Why not say that? Call our attention to it directly? Spare us all the confusion?

In the 5th seal, the martyred of Israel call for justice, but more martyrs will be coming during the greatest tribulation.

In the 6th seal is sudden destruction, the 7th seal, the end, and the beginning has come.

I see the earthquake of the 6th seal being the same worldwide earthquake written in Ezekiel 38:19 as Gog leads Magog et al to invade the mountains of Israel. And as the first trumpet sounds, the rain of blood and fire and hail destroys them, and burning up a third of the earth's trees.

I think that if you were to be able to look into heaven at the right time you would see what John saw, an angel, holding a trumpet, preparing to sound, then it sounds forth, into the heavens and fire, and brimstone, and blood begins to fall . . .

The destruction of Gog/Magog accompanied by a world wide earthquake makes coronavirus look like a page from a comic book.

A new empire rises from the crippled governments and economies. The beast.

My suggestion is to read the revelation in a single sitting just letting it flow like a movie through your mind. Read it many times this way, so as you recall various passages it will be with the imagery used. I believe there is a specific reason for each, but not necessarily found through examination of the text.

We examine the text, get into Greek, make sure we know it is really saying, but let it mold the mind.

This is a revelation given by God, it has a certain purpose in being written as it is, I think.

OK, anyway, I like to stay with what I can demonstrate from the wording, for instance, we know that the reg dragon is a symbol, because we're told it's a sign, and we're also told the dragon is actually Satan. So not just any old dragon.

So when it's like that, yes, otherwise, I just take it pretty straightforward.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Matthew 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Jesus' prophecy in Luke was a warning fulfilled by Titus and his armies, who surrounded Jerusalem at that time.

Jesus' prophecy in Matthew is a warning that will be fulfilled by the man of sin who sits in the temple showing himself to be god.

Luke continues . . .

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Matthew continues . . .

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Jesus' prophecy in Luke foretells the captivity of Israel throughout the remainder of the times of the gentiles. In Matthew Jesus foretells a time of killing that only ends when Jesus returns.

I believe these are speaking of two different things. There are other reasons to think so if you want to go into it more.

Much love!

 

[Stumpmaster]

or, how is this one Person standing and sitting at the same time?

I appreciate you asking about the Godhead and how the three members of it exist as one yet function as three.
How is H2O a liquid, a solid and a gas? Simply put they can exist in different forms depending on the circumstances.

In Biblical Theology there is a concept called "Progressive Revelation" about which Don Stewart writes at this link

"The Scriptures testify to a progression of God's revelation of Himself to humanity. He did not reveal the fullness of His truth in the beginning, yet what He revealed was always true. Each portion of Scripture was built on the previous one.

In the Old Testament God was saving people through the testimony of the nation Israel. However this is no longer the case. Only through Jesus Christ can a person now be saved. Christianity is now the true faith.

If one does not understand the progressive nature of God's revelation, then the Scripture will seem to be contradictory at a number of points. Once progressive revelation is understood, then the so-called contradictions disappear.

Genesis 1:1 says "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth", with no mention of Christ's inclusion in the work of Creation at this stage.

Genesis 1:2 says "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters", but there is still no disclosure of Christ as yet.

John 3:16-17 says "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

The phrase "only begotten" is monogenēs in Greek. It means sole or only born. Here we have a clear disclosure of the relationship between Him who sits on the throne holding the scroll in Revelation 5:1, and Christ the Redeeming Lamb that was slain.

Obviously God is the Creator of His Son Jesus Christ.

 

[Dcopymope]

Where do the Scriptures say "the Day of the Lord ushers in the Great Tribulation?" Where do the Scriptures say "the seventh trumpet ushers in the last 3.5 years of the Great Tribulation?"

The Day of the Lord:

(Revelation 6:12-17) "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; {13} And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. {14} And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. {15} And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; {16} And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: {17} For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

The seventh trumpet:

(Revelation 11:14-15) "The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. {15} And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."..................

(Revelation 12:1-6) "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: {2} And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. {3} And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. {4} And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. {5} And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. {6} And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days."

(Revelation 12:12) "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

(Revelation 13:3-5) "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. {4} And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? {5} And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."

In other words, what Jesus called the time of "great tribulation" in the Olivet Discourse is actually triggered by the Day of the Lord, as part of his judgement in Revelation. In revelation, the seventh trumpet isn't just about about the rapture, it ushers in the "third woe" first, the last 3 1/2 years of the "great tribulation", or "Jacob's trouble" before the rapture occurs. Where is the rapture event described in revelation after chapter 13? Well its described literally in the next two chapters.

The 144,000:

(Revelation 14:1-4) "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads. {2} And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: {3} And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. {4} These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

The gentile believers:

(Revelation 15:1-3) "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. {2} And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. {3} And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints."

Now the reason why I am highlighting the part about the songs is because it shows a clear distinction between the "144,000" Jews and the rest of the believers. The "144,000" Jews are singing a song that no man in heaven or earth knows but them, while the gentile believers are singing a different song entirely, the "song of Moses", and the "song of the Lamb". For those who believe the "church" gets snatched out of the way before the great tribulation period, it clearly says they had victory over the beast, his image and his mark. You cannot claim to have victory over something you never had to face in the first damn place. Its like taking credit for something you never did. This conclusively disproves any and all notions of any type of pre-tribulation rapture. As for the sea of glass they are standing on, it should be obvious to everyone what that is, but John gives a clear interpretation of it, so that there is no excuse of any "misconceptions" that the rapture is actually being described in those chapters.

The "Sea of Glass":

(Revelation 13:1) "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy."......

(Revelation 17:1-2) "And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: {2} With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication."

(Revelation 17:15) "And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."

(Revelation 20:13) "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

In other words, the "sea of glass" they are standing on is earth. During this whole time they are standing on this "sea of glass", God will be laying the last phase of his smack down we know as the "seven vials judgement" before his sons actual second coming.

The Seven Vials:

(Revelation 15:5-8) "And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: {6} And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. {7} And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. {8} And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled."

The second coming of Jesus:

(Revelation 19:11-16) "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. {12} His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. {13} And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. {14} And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. {15} And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. {16} And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

Now this is the order of end times events as they are described in revelation in a nutshell. Its really not as hard to understand it as people make it out to be, and I'm getting quite tired of having to explain it over, and over, and OVER again. Over two thousand years later, and Christians are still bickering among each other about what happens. Ain't no excuse for this at this point in the faith, for God's so called "church". If I was God, I'd be pulling my gosh damn hair out waiting for my people to GET IT THE HELL TOGETHER, for crying out loud.

 

[marks]

and I'm getting quite tired of having to explain it over, and over, and OVER again.

Then maybe it's time for a break?

 

[Dcopymope]

Then maybe it's time for a break?

It might just be time for me to ghost this place again, because Gods "church", his "body of believers" are driving me freaking nuts, just up the damn wall.

 

[marks]

It might just be time for me to ghost this place again, because Gods "church", his "body of believers" are driving me freaking nuts, just up the damn wall.

It's sounding more and more like it to me . . .

Much love!

 

[bbyrd009]

The Revelation of Christ; the logical thinker's nightmare lol

trying to divine the future from It is just irresistible i guess huh

Well its described literally in the next two chapters.

ah, you are aware that the Revelation of Christ is a vision, so i cant really grasp how you are then able to go there with a straight face wadr, let alone so much unbridled confidence? You dont um feel that you should maybe qualify your statements even a little bit, D?

bc these things that have been basically fortune-told from a reading of the Rev, taken literally, they prolly are not ever going to happen like that, as other Scripture even states, The kingdom does not come by observation, right?

so i mean your frustration is understandable; just imagine how we feel

 

[Dcopymope]

@marks

And then we have part of Gods "church" shunning all logic when comprehending the book they claim to believe in. According to that particular click, we are not supposed to use the brain God gave us to function. Its no wonder why his "church" still can't see the forest for the tree's. If there is a "body of Christ", I'm still looking for it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

So no ceremony in the heavenlies?

No real seals, no real trumpets, no censor, no bowls. No war between Michael in the dragon? Nor dragon cast down to the earth?

I take it as describing something that happens, for instance, yes, an half hour of silence between the opening of the seventh seal and the sounding of the first trumpet.

Let me ask you. Will there be a world wide earthquake as marked by the sixth seal? Is this describing a geological seismic event? Or some other kind of shaking.

Why would we not think there will be silence in heaven for half an hour after the opening of an actual scroll? I have no issues with things being symbolic if the text tells us this is a symbol. But otherwise I take things pretty much at face value.

That's actually a good way of interpreting, to see things as literal when they're obviously literal, and as symbolic when they're obviously symbolic. But many cannot see the obvious fact that much of the Revelation is backdrop, a kind of color commentary that is not really part of the game.

When silence happens for half an hour in heaven, why would you not think this is in itself part of the vision, and not the actual fulfillment. Much of the book involves expressions and processes that just concern seeing the vision, and obviously not seeing the actual fulfillment. Clearly, seeing a vision of the future is not like seeing through a crystal ball. It is more seeing symbols of what will happen than being transported into the future to see actual history--history that hasn't even happened yet.

So when lightnings and thunders take place with each vision it's just dramatic flare, to indicate the gravity of these events. They are not part of the actual history that will take place. And John seeing trumpets one after another is not seeing the actual history represented by these trumpets. It's just symbolic of the fact angels will bring this thing about--they don't blow actual trumpets, obviously! Angels just blew literal trumpets in the vision! In other words, John was just seeing the vision--not the history to take place. He was seeing a symbolic depiction, and not the actual event to take place.

Let me put it this way. Let's say that the Revelation is "the best God could do" while communicating with puny little humans, and that obviously there aren't literal scrolls and locusts and the abyss and all that stuff!

How do you then go about interpreting the book? There becomes a double hermenuetic, if you will, where, in the case of some symbols, those identified in the text, you will be able to follow a repeatable hermaneutic, that is, someone else who approaches the text in the same way that you do, looking to see what is a symbol and what does it mean, they will see the same things you do, as they are there in fact to be seen.

What is the meaning of a scroll? Of that scroll? Is it only a device to express that 7 things will be forthcoming?

Yes, of course. God doesn't have a literal scroll. His information doesn't need a computer storage. But He has the equivalent in some way, which is best expressed in a way that we might understand it. Again, this is just the vision John is seeing--not the actual event. He is seeing a depiction, and not what the symbolic scroll represents. The scroll is obviously symbolic of something that was accomplished at the cross. John was just seeing how this is recorded with God and depicted in symbolic form through the use of a scroll.

Of course, some of these events are not just symbolism expressing the way in which these things are described. Some of it are the actual events that will take place, the actual earthquakes. But when all the mountains are moved from their place, your guess is as good as mine. It may just be the vision expressing that universal changes are taking place, or it actually may be some kind of planetary movement. I guess that's the challenge of the Apocalypse. How much is symbol and what are the actual events behind the symbols?

I propose that it is the scroll of redemption of Israel. The scroll remains sealed until the time comes for Jesus to assert His right and redeem them.

Many will say that it's the "title deed to the earth", I don't. But that's the problem. What is this scroll? I'm thinking a sealed scroll that will be opened.

It may be all these things. You're certainly right that it has to do with Christ redeeming us. But more, it has to do with how that redemption will bring about the fulfillment of history in this age. Christ will come and bring his Kingdom. The forces that hinder this will be destroyed. The Church will be rewarded.

But when we leave the Biblical language of horseman and trumpet and 1/2 hour and such, we lose it's usefulness, and are required to add our own. That is to say, God frames these parts of the revelation in certain ways, a throne room, elders and living creatures and radiances of light, a scroll and a Lamb opening the seals.

I think that these are the ways God is forming our minds, the mind of Christ within us.

The revelation of Jesus Christ. With all of it's pageantry and wonder!

That's the word. So much of the word is pageantry and embellishment. It is specifically designed to show that it is a vision, and not the actual history. The fluff is designed to add color commentary so that we understand what the symbols mean.

Shall we take these scenes of heavenly glory as God interacts with His creation exactly as portrayed? Or understand them to mean something different, where we each one decides for them self what that would be, for lack of clarifying Scriptures?

We should understand them as not detail to be filled in as if a crystal ball to be analyzed and figured out. We are not to live by anticipating the future or by solving riddles. We are given enough so that we can exercise our faith in Christ in the world in which we live, interpreting things by the way God's word speaks to our hearts.

Will you enter heaven upon the crystal sea to stand before the throne?

I'm hoping I give an adequate flavor of how I see this book of prophecy.

Much love!

It's fun, isn't it? That's why many of us are here, to enjoy the sheer wonder of the future--something we're absolutely certain is coming right around the bend! As Bob Dylan said, it's a "slow train coming!"

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Day of the Lord:



The seventh trumpet:





In other words, what Jesus called the time of "great tribulation" in the Olivet Discourse is actually triggered by the Day of the Lord, as part of his judgement in Revelation. In revelation, the seventh trumpet isn't just about about the rapture, it ushers in the "third woe" first, the last 3 1/2 years of the "great tribulation", or "Jacob's trouble" before the rapture occurs. Where is the rapture event described in revelation after chapter 13? Well its described literally in the next two chapters.

The 144,000:



The gentile believers:



Now the reason why I am highlighting the part about the songs is because it shows a clear distinction between the "144,000" Jews and the rest of the believers. The "144,000" Jews are singing a song that no man in heaven or earth knows but them, while the gentile believers are singing a different song entirely, the "song of Moses", and the "song of the Lamb". For those who believe the "church" gets snatched out of the way before the great tribulation period, it clearly says they had victory over the beast, his image and his mark. You cannot claim to have victory over something you never had to face in the first damn place. Its like taking credit for something you never did. This conclusively disproves any and all notions of any type of pre-tribulation rapture. As for the sea of glass they are standing on, it should be obvious to everyone what that is, but John gives a clear interpretation of it, so that there is no excuse of any "misconceptions" that the rapture is actually being described in those chapters.

The "Sea of Glass":



In other words, the "sea of glass" they are standing on is earth. During this whole time they are standing on this "sea of glass", God will be laying the last phase of his smack down we know as the "seven vials judgement" before his sons actual second coming.

The Seven Vials:



The second coming of Jesus:



Now this is the order of end times events as they are described in revelation in a nutshell. Its really not as hard to understand it as people make it out to be, and I'm getting quite tired of having to explain it over, and over, and OVER again. Over two thousand years later, and Christians are still bickering among each other about what happens. Ain't no excuse for this at this point in the faith, for God's so called "church". If I was God, I'd be pulling my gosh damn hair out waiting for my people to GET IT THE HELL TOGETHER, for crying out loud.

Don't get weary in well doing, brother. If you lose patience, you've lost the battle.

What may seem simple to you looks like error to me. I'm Postrib, for sure, but I don't see the 6th seal preceding the 7th seal as a chronological sequence, but only a series of different versions.

The 6th seal itself takes us up to and looks at the Day of the Lord, which is the Coming of Christ at the end of the age. The 7th seal is simply another set of visions--this time trumpets.

They aren't chronological either--just a set of distinct visions each of which imparts a different aspect of Christ's coming in judgment, and to save his people.

The Great Tribulation is defined in Luke 21 as the Jewish Diaspora of the entire NT era, which ends at the return of Christ. It includes the Reign of Antichrist, but actually includes the entire NT era, in the time before Israel is restored, as a nation, to God.

So no, you don't have it simple and right, unless you acknowledge these things, that the Day of the Lord is Christ's return, and the Great Tribulation is the Jewish experience in the NT era. It has, incidentally, also become part of the general experience of Christians in all nations.

It's a good thing to not get weary, and to allow Christians to grow and develop slowly, if needed. None of us is perfect, and we can all benefit from one another.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No guess at all. It is based on scripture.
You are presenting a mixed up message. A 1,000 years must be understood to be present between the end of verse 12 and the beginning of Verse of chapter 12 of Revelation. Chapter 13 does not begin to play out until the Bottomless pit is unlocked and the faceted for side beast of causes a manifestation in the people of the sea to rise up under the influence the beast of Chapter 13:1-10 who we are told rises up out of the Bottomless pit after it is unlocked in chapter 17:8
Where is this understanding found in scripture? It is all part of the Pre-trib escape theory which is flawed and unscriptural.

How inspired are you when you think I'm Pretrib? I'm not.

You are now grasping at strays in an attempt to change the storyline of the Ezekiel 47:1-12 prophecy. You are showing me that you have no special insights at all of the End Times by attempting to bring unrelated prophecies together to provide a counter argument.
Shalom
.

You still think I'm claiming to be a prophet? Go ahead and test away. I love trying to answer questions. But to be honest, I think you need a little attitude adjustment? I'm not your enemy brother. I just tell it as I see it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hi there Randy Kluth,
So, Revelation, the Apocalypse, the 7 Ekklesias, the Lamb, the Scroll, the 4 Beasts, the 24 Elders, the 7 Seals...

Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book (biblios = scroll back then) written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

Some points to note:

• Only the Redeemer is worthy to open the scroll that is held in the right hand of the Creator.
• When the Redeemer takes the scroll from the right hand of the Creator His worthiness to take and open it is acknowledged in the song of the 4 beasts and 24 elders, who represent the priesthood of all who serve God and are the redeemed out of every kindred and people and tribe and nation.
• In contrast to Romans 8:22 which describes all Creation as groaning and labouring with birth pangs, when the Redeemer has taken the scroll from the Creator, Revelation 5:13 depicts all Creation, good or bad, righteous or unrighteous, in heaven or not, as acknowledging and applauding His superlative quality and worthiness.

What is so important about the scroll that it is sealed with 7 seals which only the Redeemer is worthy to open?

• Information regarding the Divine Inputs, Processes, and Outcomes to be continued until Complete Perfection is Fulfilled.

Since these Inputs, Processes, and Outcomes have been disclosed it follows that since their disclosure they have been at work.

That's all for now...time to rest.

Hi brother. I used to think the 24 elders were Christianity, as well. I don't any more. My brother and I have studied it, and both of us have concluded they were likely angels. We can talk more about why we think that later, after you've rested?

 

[Stumpmaster]

Hi brother. I used to think the 24 elders were Christianity, as well. I don't any more. My brother and I have studied it, and both of us have concluded they were likely angels. We can talk more about why we think that later, after you've rested?

Oh Dear, Randy. You have missed an important reference to the 24 elders which rules out the theory that they are angels.

Angels are not subject to redemption from every kindred, tongue, people, and nation, and are not made kings and priests, as are the 24 elders and the rest of the priesthood they are representing.

Rev 5:8-10 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. (9) And they sung a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for you were slain, and have redeemed us to God by your blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; (10) And have made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Also see Revelation 4:4 that the elders wear crowns. If you can find any instance in Scripture of angels wearing crowns I will be very surprised, as I have searched and found that on no occasion does Scripture feature any angels with crowns on their heads.

Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

 

[Enoch111]

I used to think the 24 elders were Christianity, as well. I don't any more. My brother and I have studied it, and both of us have concluded they were likely angels.

Do you really believe that the Holy Spirit would call angels *elders*?Elders are elders, and those 24 elders are perhaps the most outstanding elders who were watching over their churches as true shepherds. Thus they have a special place before the throne of God.