the 4 horsemen--ancient or now?

[Randy Kluth]

The 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse sort of launch the judgment of God against the world in preparation for the Kingdom of Christ. But no real time frame is given. We know that the endtimes, in a sense, began after Jesus' died on the cross, and judgment against mankind became sort of "last chance."

But the endtimes is also our day, what we might call "the last of the last days." It is the time immediately preceding the return of Christ. So my question is, and I sincerely ask it, do the 4 horsemen, or even more broadly, the 7 seals, represent something that began in ancient history, in the time of Christ's apostles, or does this actually refer to our day?

I think the backdrop was actually from Dan 7, where the Roman Empire presented the last obstacle to the coming of Christ's Kingdom. But that Kingdom would sort of hold the world in place until it finally breaks up into 10 states, and then is reconsolidated under Antichrist.

The 4 horsemen may have begun to show cracks in the Roman Empire, because after war and varied disasters ripped into that area, the city of Rome fell to barbarians in 476 AD.

But in these last days the old Roman Empire exists in these 10 plus states, although yet to be consolidated under Antichrist. Perhaps these 4 horsemen come to make cracks in this edifice today, which is the European Union? Is war and natural disasters starting to whittle away the unity and continuity of this heir to the old Roman system?

I don't know. But I do think John was given to refrain from mentioning the Roman tradition specifically because it would've been looked on as sedition, or rebellion. In a number of places in NT Scriptures Rome is treated gently, with an eye to preserving social order and a good Christian witness. But Christians also knew how corrupt Rome was, and wanted to be careful to not "become them" in trying to "win them!"

Let me know your opinion on this?

 

[marks]

I see the four horsemen as showing the same things as the intermittent birth pangs, then, as the 70th week is to begin, the seals loosed, the horsemen dispatched, and those intermittent and increasing birth pangs become the landscape of the 70th week.

False Christs becomes the Beast as government is given over to be hostile to man.
Wars and rumors of wars becomes chaotic social violence, society given over in hostility to man.
Famines and such become global as food supplies crash, the rich controlling everything, commerce given over to hostility to man.
Pestilences are now the 4-fold judgement of famine and the sword and animal attacks and disease as the ecology is given over to hostility to man. In this case limited to 1/4 of the earth.

I think the horsemen are sent in the same length of time it takes to read the passage, and that the effect upon the world begins immediately, as I see this coincident to world wide sudden destruction, the great earthquake in both Ezekiel 38 and Revelation 6, which I think are the same.

I was just telling my wife last night I don't get much into eschatology on this forum. So I'll start there. Some of my thoughts.

Much love!

 

[quietthinker]

I see the four horsemen as a summary of the 'Christian' system from its inception ie, it starts off pure and progressively deteriorates finishing with Death ie, '“Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird!

 

[Enoch111]

The 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse sort of launch the judgment of God against the world in preparation for the Kingdom of Christ. But no real time frame is given.

The time frame is given in the Olivet Discourse. "All these are the beginning of sorrows".

THE WHITE HORSE
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

THE RED HORSE
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom...

THE BLACK HORSE
...and there shall be famines...

THE PALE HORSE
and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

The Four Horsemen were released in the 1st century and have been on earth since then. A lot of people believe that they have been in abeyance, but that is incorrect.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I see the four horsemen as showing the same things as the intermittent birth pangs, then, as the 70th week is to begin, the seals loosed, the horsemen dispatched, and those intermittent and increasing birth pangs become the landscape of the 70th week.

False Christs becomes the Beast as government is given over to be hostile to man.
Wars and rumors of wars becomes chaotic social violence, society given over in hostility to man.
Famines and such become global as food supplies crash, the rich controlling everything, commerce given over to hostility to man.
Pestilences are now the 4-fold judgement of famine and the sword and animal attacks and disease as the ecology is given over to hostility to man. In this case limited to 1/4 of the earth.

I think the horsemen are sent in the same length of time it takes to read the passage, and that the effect upon the world begins immediately, as I see this coincident to world wide sudden destruction, the great earthquake in both Ezekiel 38 and Revelation 6, which I think are the same.

I was just telling my wife last night I don't get much into eschatology on this forum. So I'll start there. Some of my thoughts.

Much love!

I think I'm uniquely called to the field of eschatology, but there are very few who agree with me. If your ministry is somewhere else, as most often it is, then eschatology will only be peripheral for you regardless. All an evangelist needs to know, for example, is that Christ's Kingdom is coming, and that folks need to start getting ready for it now!

I've held so many views, partly due to the diverse views I've heard from my church and from books. Over time I was given my own way of interpreting Scriptures in this area. It doesn't matter how many times I explain it, it's sort of ignored, probably because it's my system, and not always somebody else's.

Enough of the small talk. Please don't be offended if I'm direct about my beliefs. I take a little from different schools, preterism and dispensationalism, and find the most important validation from the church fathers. I'm really neither preterist nor dispensationalist. So let me explain just what it is.

I believe, as the Church Fathers did, that Daniel's 70th Week and the Olivet Discourse were focused primarily on the earthly coming of Jesus, his death, and on the destruction of Jerusalem that followed. It wasn't at all about the Antichrist.

The birth pains set the stage for the 70 AD event, which the disciples were to watch out for. And then the Jewish People would be scattered and exiled across the earth all the way through to the end of the age. What began as birth pains would become an age of great tribulation both for the Jewish People and for the Christian Church. The same signs that anticipated the fall of Jerusalem occur throughout the NT age, as more nations, like Israel, become God's People, and then fall away.

The book of Revelation largely focuses on the last 3.5 years of the age, when Antichrist rises to consolidate the old Roman Empire under his control, by the inspiration of Satan. He has a religious figure to support him, with branches east and west--perhaps a takeover by Satan of the Roman Catholic Church? This, of course, wouldn't be a church anymore. Rome itself would have to be destroyed.

That's it in a nutshell. And that's why I'm wondering whether the 4 horsemen started 2000 years ago, or are intended to start in our day? I'll take it that you interpret things in a modern way, which is probably the right thing to do, because that's where we live now!

 

[Randy Kluth]

The time frame is given in the Olivet Discourse. "All these are the beginning of sorrows".

THE WHITE HORSE
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

THE RED HORSE
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom...

THE BLACK HORSE
...and there shall be famines...

THE PALE HORSE
and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

The Four Horsemen were released in the 1st century and have been on earth since then. A lot of people believe that they have been in abeyance, but that is incorrect.

I think I lean towards this view, although I do think our focus today has to be on what this has to do with us now? So I do believe the 4 horsemen began their ride back in the 1st century, but just kept on going. They're still riding today, and will definitely be riding in the endtimes, because the book of Revelation says it all has to do with unsealing the prophecy of Christ's Coming Kingdom.

Thanks!

 

[Episkopos]

Zechariah 6
6 And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of brass.

2 In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses;

3 And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses.

4 Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, my lord?

5 And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.

 

[101G]

Good post,
There is a difference between Divine Judgment vs Divine Wrath. Divine Judgment is design to bring us to repentance. Its design can be in the form of a calamity. but Divine wrath destroys
In Revelation 4:7, it gave the description of four beast, and there have been many different interpretation of who and what these beast/living creatures are. "And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle”. these beast/living creatures line up with the four horseman riders in chapter 6, which are the four Judgments of God. One can find the four JUDGMENT of God in the book of Ezekiel 14:12-21

And since everyone is up in roar about the Coronavirus one might want to look at the Judgment of pestilence
Ezekiel 14:21 "For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?”

THE PESTILENCE: the fourth horseman, revealed by the fourth beast, the “Face of a flying Eagle, the pale horse rider.
Ezekiel 14:19 & 20 "Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast: 20 "Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness."

well, well, well, if one is righttrous there is no need to worry, but if one is not righttrous, now is the TIME to "REPENT". Revelation 6:8 "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

Well a virus, like the Coronavirus, come under the heading of pestilence. And God said that he would pour his fury upon the land.

this is only a JUDGMENT to bring us to repentance. His wrath is not yet come.

PICJAG.

 

[Jay Ross]

I think I'm uniquely called to the field of eschatology, but there are very few who agree with me.

I agree with you that you believe that you have been called to the unique field of eschatology, but the proof that you have been is found in your understanding of scripture. You join the many other so deemed prophets, who believe that they also have been called to unravel the End Time Prophecies for all of us plebs to hang on to theirs's and your every word of understanding.

Let us start to test your understanding with these five questions to start with: -

1. Who are the kings that will be around at the time of God establishing His everlasting Kingdom?
2. When will this take place?
3. What events will occur when God sets out to establish His Ever lasting Kingdom?
4. What role will God's earthly hosts have during the time of His Everlasting Kingdom?
5. What event is the sign post for the marking out of time until the time of the Judgement of the Nations/people Groups occurs?

Perhaps you will surprise us all with your understanding.

Shalom

 

[Randy Kluth]

I agree with you that you believe that you have been called to the unique field of eschatology, but the proof that you have been is found in your understanding of scripture. You join the many other so deemed prophets, who believe that they also have been called to unravel the End Time Prophecies for all of us plebs to hang on to theirs's and your every word of understanding.

Let us start to test your understanding with these five questions to start with: -

1. Who are the kings that will be around at the time of God establishing His everlasting Kingdom?
2. When will this take place?
3. What events will occur when God sets out to establish His Ever lasting Kingdom?
4. What role with God's earthly hosts have during the time of His Everlasting Kingdom?
5. What event is the sign post for the marking out of time until the time of the Judgement of the Nations/people Groups occurs?

Perhaps you will surprise us all with your understanding.

Shalom

You want me to take an exam? I'm not at all claiming to be some kind of guru.

I'm just saying that after X many years of serving the Lord, and asking Him about these things, you might be able to notice that some of the things I say show some special insight. I'm *not* saying I'm a prophet.

Why don't you respond to what I've already proposed? I would have nothing to say unless Church Fathers and scholars who've gone before have set the table in advance.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Zechariah 6
6 And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of brass.

2 In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses;

3 And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses.

4 Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, my lord?

5 And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.

Yes, some of the commentators believe this was how God addressed the situation in Israel at the time of her Persian restoration. I believe it's the same with respect to the restoration of Israel at the end of the age. Angels have to pave the way, by bringing judgment to the powers that are presently controlling the world.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I agree with you that you believe that you have been called to the unique field of eschatology, but the proof that you have been is found in your understanding of scripture. You join the many other so deemed prophets, who believe that they also have been called to unravel the End Time Prophecies for all of us plebs to hang on to theirs's and your every word of understanding.

Let us start to test your understanding with these five questions to start with: -

1. Who are the kings that will be around at the time of God establishing His everlasting Kingdom?
2. When will this take place?
3. What events will occur when God sets out to establish His Ever lasting Kingdom?
4. What role with God's earthly hosts have during the time of His Everlasting Kingdom?
5. What event is the sign post for the marking out of time until the time of the Judgement of the Nations/people Groups occurs?

Perhaps you will surprise us all with your understanding.

Shalom

Since I like discussing these things so much, I'll buy in just to talk about it.

1) The kings around when Christ comes are the leaders across the world. Lots of them will be eaten by vultures, because a lot of them will be defeated.

In particular, Antichrist and his cohorts, probably in Europe, will face Armageddon. Christ's Coming is characterized by a verbal expression from Christ, consigning the kings of the earth either to death or to submission. The Kingdom will show itself supreme above them all, the mountain of the Lord's house rising above all the surrounding hills.

2) The destruction of the kings will take place when Christ comes. He will come at the time the Father sets--we aren't given to know the day or the hour, but we will recognize the general time by the 3.5 years of Antichristian reign and by the gathering of kings to Armageddon.

3) When Christ returns, Armageddon will take place, followed by the Resurrection/Ratpure of the Church, and then a new structuring of the world by the authority of God's Kingdom.

4) God's "hosts," if you refer to God's People, will judge, perhaps from a heavenly vantage point, while those who convert to Christ as mortals will be a millennial Church.

5) We aren't given to focus on times and seasons, but to instead focus on our current guidance by the Holy Spirit. I don't know what you mean by "marking periods of time?"

 

[Jay Ross]

You want me to take an exam?

I'm not at all claiming to be some kind of guru.

I'm just saying that after X many years of serving the Lord, and asking Him about these things, you might be able to notice that some of the things I say show some special insight. I'm *not* saying I'm a prophet.

Why don't you respond to what I've already proposed? I would have nothing to say unless Church Fathers and scholars who've gone before have set the table in advance.

No I was not asking you to take an exam, but I was asking you to provide the proof to convince me that I should take note of your "special insights," with respect to the end times.

Since I like discussing these things so much, I'll buy in just to talk about it.

Q 1: - Who are the kings that will be around at the time of God establishing His everlasting Kingdom?

1) The kings around when Christ comes are the leaders across the world. Lots of them will be eaten by vultures, because a lot of them will be defeated.

In particular, Antichrist and his cohorts, probably in Europe, will face Armageddon. Christ's Coming is characterized by a verbal expression from Christ, consigning the kings of the earth either to death or to submission. The Kingdom will show itself supreme above them all, the mountain of the Lord's house rising above all the surrounding hills.

Q. 2: - When will this take place?

2) The destruction of the kings will take place when Christ comes. He will come at the time the Father sets--we aren't given to know the day or the hour, but we will recognize the general time by the 3.5 years of Antichristian reign and by the gathering of kings to Armageddon.

Q. 3: - What events will occur when God sets out to establish His Everlasting Kingdom?

3) When Christ returns, Armageddon will take place, followed by the Resurrection/Ratpure of the Church, and then a new structuring of the world by the authority of God's Kingdom.

Q. 4: - What role will God's earthly hosts have during the time of His Everlasting Kingdom?

4) God's "hosts," if you refer to God's People, will judge, perhaps from a heavenly vantage point, while those who convert to Christ as mortals will be a millennial Church.

Q. 5: - What event is the sign post for the marking out of time until the time of the Judgement of the Nations/people Groups occurs?

5) We aren't given to focus on times and seasons, but to instead focus on our current guidance by the Holy Spirit. I don't know what you mean by "marking periods of time?"

Your answers provided the proof I needed for you to show me that you have no special insights into the events and timing of the End Times.

It seems to me that the Church Fathers and scholars who've gone before you from whom you have formulated your “special insights to pass on to us plebs, have set a very disorganised jumble of plates, knives and forks on the table in advance for you to feast on.


Shalom

 

[Randy Kluth]

No I was not asking you to take an exam, but I was asking you to provide the proof to convince me that I should take note of your "special insights," with respect to the end times.

I'm not trying to sell myself. I'm trying to get others to instead of dismiss me outright as a rogue to consider the possibility I know what I'm talking about. Instead of trying to grade me on my answers consider how credible my *views* are. You seem to be sidestepping that, looking for something else to criticize?

There's not a single thing I'm stating on this forum that is based on a so-called "prophetic declaration." I am trying to give my best shot at interpreting what the Scriptures say, and I'm *not* saying I'm always right. I've been wrong many times, and have changed my positions many times.

I'm just saying that I shouldn't be rejected outright, as a kind of knee-jerk reaction, simply because I don't always follow the conventional path. Some of my views go back to much earlier views in Church history, and do not conform to popular eschatology in the present time.

Your answers provided the proof I needed for you to show me that you have no special insights into the events and timing of the End Times.

It seems to me that the Church Fathers and scholars who've gone before you from whom you have formulated your “special insights to pass on to us plebs, have set a very disorganised jumble of plates, knives and forks on the table in advance for you to feast on.
Shalom

If you don't want to discuss the thread, just go ahead and be a "pleb." It's your choice. I'm hoping you'll step up and try to answer some of these questions yourself.

 

[Jay Ross]

If you don't want to discuss the thread, just go ahead and be a "pleb." It's your choice. I'm hoping you'll step up and try to answer some of these questions yourself.

Sure why not: -

• Who are the kings that will be around at the time of God establishing His everlasting Kingdom?

The kings of the world who will be around in 20-30 years time.

• When will this take place?

In around 20-30 years time at the end of this present age.

• What events will occur when God sets out to establish His Ever lasting Kingdom?

Satan and his fellow fallen heavenly hosts will be judged in Heaven and cast out down to the face of the earth and the kings of the earth and their armies will be judged on the face of the earth. Both the Judged heavenly hosts and the Kings of the earth and their armies will be gathered together and imprisoned in a pit for many days to await their time of punishment.

• What role will God's earthly hosts have during the time of His Everlasting Kingdom?

They will openly repent of their sins before God, they will be redeemed and gather to God who will renew with them the previous Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and God's Possession among the nations Covenant, admittedly with some slight tweaks to become Priests and teachers about the Kingdom of God on the earth.

• What event is the sign post for the marking out of time until the time of the Judgement of the Nations/people Groups occurs?

The dedication of Solomon's Temple when God's presence entered the Temple. The prophecy that Goes with this understanding is found in Ezekiel 47:1-12 for those who have understanding of the timespan of this prophecy.

Shalom

PS: The Rapture of the Saints to meet Christ in the air occurs at the end of the Last Age, which has been labelled/call the Millennium Age.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Good post,
There is a difference between Divine Judgment vs Divine Wrath. Divine Judgment is design to bring us to repentance. Its design can be in the form of a calamity. but Divine wrath destroys
In Revelation 4:7, it gave the description of four beast, and there have been many different interpretation of who and what these beast/living creatures are. "And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle”. these beast/living creatures line up with the four horseman riders in chapter 6, which are the four Judgments of God. One can find the four JUDGMENT of God in the book of Ezekiel 14:12-21

And since everyone is up in roar about the Coronavirus one might want to look at the Judgment of pestilence
Ezekiel 14:21 "For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?”

THE PESTILENCE: the fourth horseman, revealed by the fourth beast, the “Face of a flying Eagle, the pale horse rider.
Ezekiel 14:19 & 20 "Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast: 20 "Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness."

well, well, well, if one is righttrous there is no need to worry, but if one is not righttrous, now is the TIME to "REPENT". Revelation 6:8 "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

Well a virus, like the Coronavirus, come under the heading of pestilence. And God said that he would pour his fury upon the land.

this is only a JUDGMENT to bring us to repentance. His wrath is not yet come.

PICJAG.

I agree--Wrath is sometimes disciplinary. But I would also suggest that God can demonstrate wrath even against His own people, which is the very definition of Discipline. But when the Scriptures say God has not intended for us to suffer wrath, I think it's talking about "Eternal Wrath." Christians, being saved, may experience disciplinary wrath, but they will never suffer "Eternal Wrath."

In order to usher in the Kingdom of Christ in this fallen world, the 4 Horsemen represent, I believe, God's way of dealing with the earthly powers that are hindering this development. In the last days, Antichrist and his Empire will be a major hindrance to God's Kingdom. In fact, it is for this reason that the Apostle John called the "Little Horn" of Dan 7 the "Antichrist." He is presented in Daniel as being a hindrance to the coming of the Kingdom of God.

Daniel 7 presents 4 beasts that exist preliminary to the Kingdom of God, a lion, a bear, a leopard, and something apparently not indicated by a particular animal. In the book of Revelation we note that this 4th Kingdom "resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion." It had, in other words, characteristics of these previous world powers, and was an endtimes evolution of this 4th Kingdom. It would have 10 states and 7 kings, which is sort of how it is characterized in Dan 7, as 10 kings, 3 of them being defeated.

Note that God not only uses these 4 Horsemen to express a kind of divine military attack on earthly kingdoms, but He shows that the angels so represented also are characterized as animals. They are a lion, an ox, a man, and an eagle.

The ox does appears to be a source of judgment, but is not normally perceived as an instrument of judgment. Nevertheless, it is one of the 4 cherubim.

If I was to venture a guess, I would see these 4 living creatures as showing the following means of judgment. There are earthly forms of judgment--the lion, heavenly forms of judgment--the eagle, financial powers equipping the bastions that judge--the ox, and intellectual power giving bastions of power an edge in judgment--the man.

Christian kingdoms have indeed exercised these powers when they were in line with Christian truth and in keeping with genuine Christian practice. God blessed Christian civilization with superior reason, wealth, and military strength, as well as divine support. But I'm open to how to interpret these things.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Sure why not: -

• Who are the kings that will be around at the time of God establishing His everlasting Kingdom?

The kings of the world who will be around in 20-30 years time.

• When will this take place?

In around 20-30 years time at the end of this present age.

• What events will occur when God sets out to establish His Ever lasting Kingdom?

Satan and his fellow fallen heavenly hosts will be judged in Heaven and cast out down to the face of the earth and the kings of the earth and their armies will be judged on the face of the earth. Both the Judged heavenly hosts and the Kings of the earth and their armies will be gathered together and imprisoned in a pit for many days to await their time of punishment.

• What role will God's earthly hosts have during the time of His Everlasting Kingdom?

They will openly repent of their sins before God, they will be redeemed and gather to God who will renew with them the previous Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and God's Possession among the nations Covenant, admittedly with some slight tweaks to become Priests and teachers about the Kingdom of God on the earth.

• What event is the sign post for the marking out of time until the time of the Judgement of the Nations/people Groups occurs?

The dedication of Solomon's Temple when God's presence entered the Temple. The prophecy that Goes with this understanding is found in Ezekiel 47:1-12 for those who have understanding of the timespan of this prophecy.

Shalom

PS: The Rapture of the Saints to meet Christ in the air occurs at the end of the Last Age, which has been labelled/call the Millennium Age.

Well thanks for "stepping up." I'm always interested in sincere perspectives.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Sure why not: -

• Who are the kings that will be around at the time of God establishing His everlasting Kingdom?

The kings of the world who will be around in 20-30 years time.

• When will this take place?

In around 20-30 years time at the end of this present age.

• What events will occur when God sets out to establish His Ever lasting Kingdom?

Times and seasons belong in the hand of God. But I think it's a reasonable guess. Some like to go by the Jewish calendar, using the sexta-septa millennial equation. 5780 perhaps? But the Jews were certainly off on their rejection of Messiah, so who knows?

Satan and his fellow fallen heavenly hosts will be judged in Heaven and cast out down to the face of the earth and the kings of the earth and their armies will be judged on the face of the earth. Both the Judged heavenly hosts and the Kings of the earth and their armies will be gathered together and imprisoned in a pit for many days to await their time of punishment.

I don't know whether what happens in Rev 12 is symbolic of Satan's fall generally, but it is certainly depicted in the context of a final struggle between him and God's people, beginning with Israel and with Christ's birth in particular. Clearly, this has a relationship to the Antichristian Empire described in Rev 13.

• What role will God's earthly hosts have during the time of His Everlasting Kingdom?

They will openly repent of their sins before God, they will be redeemed and gather to God who will renew with them the previous Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and God's Possession among the nations Covenant, admittedly with some slight tweaks to become Priests and teachers about the Kingdom of God on the earth.

I personally see the identification of a "kingdom of priests" as being initially an appellation applied to Israel, under the Old Covenant, and later, in the Revelation, applied generally to Christians in Christ's Kingdom. But undoubtedly, we all repent of our sins and then take our place in God's Kingdom. I don't think that we will teach in the Millennial Age, since I believe we will be transformed *before* the inception of the Millennial Age. I believe we will sort of be heavenly judges until the end of the Millennium when we will descend from heaven in the New Jerusalem.

• What event is the sign post for the marking out of time until the time of the Judgement of the Nations/people Groups occurs?

The dedication of Solomon's Temple when God's presence entered the Temple. The prophecy that Goes with this understanding is found in Ezekiel 47:1-12 for those who have understanding of the timespan of this prophecy.

Neither Solomon's Temple nor Ezekiel's Temple reference the eschatological judgment, as I recall it? These may, however, symbolize an endtime coming of Christ's presence to the earth, to fill the earth with the knowledge of his glory.

Ezekiel speaks, symbolically, of what the OT temple was supposed to bring to Israel, namely a purification of their sins, as by a river of water. It is also used to present Israel's end, when they as a nation are saved, and purified, enabling them to receive a complete national inheritance.

Shalom

PS: The Rapture of the Saints to meet Christ in the air occurs at the end of the Last Age, which has been labelled/call the Millennium Age.

I'm a Premil. But Postmil has been around a long time too. But I think it has a much shorter history than either Premil or Amil.

 

[Jay Ross]

Times and seasons belong in the hand of God. But I think it's a reasonable guess.

No guess at all. It is based on scripture.

I don't know whether what happens in Rev 12 is symbolic of Satan's fall generally, but it is certainly depicted in the context of a final struggle between him and God's people, beginning with Israel and with Christ's birth in particular. Clearly, this has a relationship to the Antichristian Empire described in Rev 13.

You are presenting a mixed up message. A 1,000 years must be understood to be present between the end of verse 12 and the beginning of Verse of chapter 12 of Revelation. Chapter 13 does not begin to play out until the Bottomless pit is unlocked and the faceted for side beast of causes a manifestation in the people of the sea to rise up under the influence the beast of Chapter 13:1-10 who we are told rises up out of the Bottomless pit after it is unlocked in chapter 17:8

I personally see the identification of a "kingdom of priests" as being initially an appellation applied to Israel, under the Old Covenant, and later, in the Revelation, applied generally to Christians in Christ's Kingdom. But undoubtedly, we all repent of our sins and then take our place in God's Kingdom. I don't think that we will teach in the Millennial Age, since I believe we will be transformed *before* the inception of the Millennial Age. I believe we will sort of be heavenly judges until the end of the Millennium when we will descend from heaven in the New Jerusalem.

Where is this understanding found in scripture? It is all part of the Pre-trib escape theory which is flawed and unscriptural.

Neither Solomon's Temple nor Ezekiel's Temple reference the eschatological judgment, as I recall it? These may, however, symbolize an end time coming of Christ's presence to the earth, to fill the earth with the knowledge of his glory.

You are now grasping at strays in an attempt to change the storyline of the Ezekiel 47:1-12 prophecy. You are showing me that you have no special insights at all of the End Times by attempting to bring unrelated prophecies together to provide a counter argument.

Shalom


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[Stumpmaster]

So my question is, and I sincerely ask it, do the 4 horsemen, or even more broadly, the 7 seals, represent something that began in ancient history, in the time of Christ's apostles, or does this actually refer to our day?

Hi there Randy Kluth,
So, Revelation, the Apocalypse, the 7 Ekklesias, the Lamb, the Scroll, the 4 Beasts, the 24 Elders, the 7 Seals...

Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book (biblios = scroll back then) written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

Some points to note:

• Only the Redeemer is worthy to open the scroll that is held in the right hand of the Creator.
• When the Redeemer takes the scroll from the right hand of the Creator His worthiness to take and open it is acknowledged in the song of the 4 beasts and 24 elders, who represent the priesthood of all who serve God and are the redeemed out of every kindred and people and tribe and nation.
• In contrast to Romans 8:22 which describes all Creation as groaning and labouring with birth pangs, when the Redeemer has taken the scroll from the Creator, Revelation 5:13 depicts all Creation, good or bad, righteous or unrighteous, in heaven or not, as acknowledging and applauding His superlative quality and worthiness.

What is so important about the scroll that it is sealed with 7 seals which only the Redeemer is worthy to open?

• Information regarding the Divine Inputs, Processes, and Outcomes to be continued until Complete Perfection is Fulfilled.

Since these Inputs, Processes, and Outcomes have been disclosed it follows that since their disclosure they have been at work.

That's all for now...time to rest.