tribulation and suffering part 1

[Davy]

Your accusations of intellectual dishonesty are misplaced.

God prepared His kingdom for all who would be brought into it, from whatever people in whatever time, would you not agree?

Let's look at Ephesians 1 to see if it declares the church to be The One for whom the kingdom was prepared.

Ephesians 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

So as I look through this chapter, I've bolded what I've seen that may refer to what God did for us before, but I'm not seeing anything about the kingdom. Can you point me to the verse you have in mind, and show me how this refers to the kingdom being prepared solely for the church?

This would also leave me wondering who David will be king over.

Much love!

Oh no! Not the Hyper-Dispensationalist nation of Israel is the kingdom only doctrine of men!!

Just this Hosea quote by Apostle Paul to Gentile believers is enough to show that Christ's Church is God's True Israel, the believing Gentiles inheriting with believing Israel...

Rom 9:23-26
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
KJV

So you should dump Darby's Dispensationalist theories, because they are not written in God's Word. There is no 'secret rapture' of the Church to live in Heaven while the kingdom of Israel is restored on earth. David's throne is an earthly throne, not a Heavenly one. And Jesus of Nazareth is coming to sit upon David's earthly... throne, in JERUSALEM, in His Temple, and not today's orthodox unbelieving Jew's temple.

 

[Davy]

True, but the Christianity of Paul's letters does not include being accepted into the kingdom, or rejected into eternal punishment, based on our works.

I'm curious . . . do you see a "rapture" happening, and if so, when do you think it will be?

Yet these will be judged based specifically on their works, and not just any works, these certain works. And not for rewards, for acceptance or condemnation.

Much love!

I guess you missed reading this by Apostle Paul...

1 Cor 5:1-5
5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
KJV


The wicked have been cast out of Churches all throughout Christian history, and rightly so if they were found guilty of things that no Christian should ever commit. But does that mean that soul can't repent and return? No, but many of them don't or won't repent for their heart was not really in Christ to begin with, showing they were not of us (from what Apostle John said about antichrists).

And have you not read what Paul said in 1 Timothy 1 about those who do those sins not inheriting the kingdom of God?

How is it this seems to be such a mystery to you?

 

[Timtofly]

Judgment is on all from the beginning of time, not just from the Tribulation, isn't it. What scripture makes you think it is from such a short period of time?

Revelation 14-16. Do you know of any other periods in history where humans were branded with 666?

 

[marks]

Oh no! Not the Hyper-Dispensationalist nation of Israel is the kingdom only doctrine of men!!

How is it this seems to be such a mystery to you?

So you should dump Darby's Dispensationalist theories

I guess you missed reading this

I hope you understand that this isn't fun or useful.

Great topic, but not like this.

 

[Keraz]

There is only one group of humans said to not be named in the Book of Life.

Not correct. Those whose names are Written in the Book of Life are all of Gods people. Malachi 3:18
Today, it is every faithful born again Christian person. Note; It is possible to be blotted out from that Book. Psalms 67:28

 

[Timtofly]

Not correct. Those whose names are Written in the Book of Life are all of Gods people. Malachi 3:18
Today, it is every faithful born again Christian person. Note; It is possible to be blotted out from that Book. Psalms 67:28

It is possible. But where in OT prophecies are people stated not in the Book of Life? It does not happen until after the book of life is unsealed. The 7th seal opened, starts the process of name removal. Revelation 14:9-11

9 Another angel, a third one, followed them and said in a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives the mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he will indeed drink the wine of God’s fury poured undiluted into the cup of his rage. He will be tormented by fire and sulfur before the holy angels and before the Lamb,
11 and the smoke from their tormenting goes up forever and ever. They have no rest, day or night, those who worship the beast and its image and those who receive the mark of its name.”

Revelation 17:8
8 The beast you saw once was, now is not, and will come up from the Abyss; but it is on its way to destruction. The people living on earth whose names have not been written in the Book of Life since the founding of the world will be astounded to see the beast that once was, now is not, but is to appear. 9 This calls for a mind with wisdom:

These are those who are left on earth with Satan and accepts his deception. Those who are beheaded will be resurrected with a restored body, but will lead normal lives. Revelation says the harvest spared no one. Three chapters about the destruction of babel, and the wine press of God’s wrath.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Revelation 14-16. Do you know of any other periods in history where humans were branded with 666?

No, do you?

 

[Davy]

I hope you understand that this isn't fun or useful.

Great topic, but not like this.

Well, they are useful, because your interpretation on that goats and sheep reveals both the Hyper-Dispensationalist theory, and Pre-tribulationalism. It was Darby who taught the idea that Jesus comes to gather the Church to live in Heaven while the nation of Israel is restored on earth. That idea is not Biblical, and that is what your sheep and goats interpretation shows influence from.

 

[Timtofly]

Well, they are useful, because your interpretation on that goats and sheep reveals both the Hyper-Dispensationalist theory, and Pre-tribulationalism. It was Darby who taught the idea that Jesus comes to gather the Church to live in Heaven while the nation of Israel is restored on earth. That idea is not Biblical, and that is what your sheep and goats interpretation shows influence from.

It is spelled out in Revelation. It does not appear out of thin air. Sheep and goats are going to be separated next in the sounding of the Trumpets. The Trumpets are calling the house of Jacob in preparation for the Second Coming.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Well, they are useful, because your interpretation on that goats and sheep reveals both the Hyper-Dispensationalist theory, and Pre-tribulationalism. It was Darby who taught the idea that Jesus comes to gather the Church to live in Heaven while the nation of Israel is restored on earth. That idea is not Biblical, and that is what your sheep and goats interpretation shows influence from.

There are also those, like myself, who are semi-Dispensationalist Postribbers. I'm not sure that's the right term, but I do believe the nations will be restored to Christianity, including Israel. But I do not believe in a reemergence of the Law of Moses, nor in an exclusivity of Israel on the Millennial earth. There is only one Christian plan for the nations, including Israel. However, each nation has its own unique relationship with God, and thus, its own historical times and seasons.