Spotting the Heretic

[Behold]

'

"This verse is speaking about bearing Spiritual Fruit."
Yes, it sure is, and is that not what God desires from us?

"Fruit bearing is done before other people"
Not always, and many times it is something some do for accolades so, they have their reward...but then you have the anonymous folks in the background...Gods unsung servants.

"Jesus also said that you shall have what you believe... that all things are possible if you have Faith."
Well, yes as, we cannot please Him without faith. All things are possible with prayer and faith...as long as these things we pray are in line with His will, and not for selfish reasons.

"Demas left Paul and returned to his old life....Where is Demas? He's in Heaven."

"For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame."
Hebrews 6:4-6

"This means that "knowing them by their Fruit", ... you really have to know your Pauline Theology or these sweet loving Devil's will ruin your faith, and that is the ruin of your Christianity"
I would say that ALL theology is just as important as Pauls. OT, NT, Gospels, Revelation and so on.

"Agape` love, not the Eros kind .
This is actually the Love of God in you, loving Through you."
Yes, I do know the difference between the different kinds of love spoken of in the bible, Agape is sacrificial and we should helping our brothers and sisters in Christ BEFORE we do the world. Be there for one another and make sure others needs are taken care of before ours.

"The devil has read this verse long before you showed up.
So, he will send in his people and they will talk about God's love, and seem sweet and teach the devil's lies while they talk about "love, love, love, all you need is love".

Yes, the devil knows every jot and tittle in the Word...better than any human could. I'm not a huggy bear kissy face kind of person, and I prefer ALL of God's attributes, not JUST His love. He is JUST..."He wages war in righteousness" His wrath is just, his mercies are new everyday, He is a jealous God but, in all these things He remains Holy.

If one truly wants to know the truth, God will reveal it to them.

"This verse is speaking about bearing Spiritual Fruit."
Yes, it sure is, and is that not what God desires from us?

More then fruit bearing, God wants us to love Him with our lives.
"fruit bearing" can be performed by an unbeliever, but to love God with all your heart, is a believer's best "fruit".




"Fruit bearing is done before other people"
Not always, and many times it is something some do for accolades so, they have their reward...but then you have the anonymous folks in the background...Gods unsung servants.

"fruit bearing" is something that other people see you do"

If its inward, then that is "right motive" and only God can see that...



"Jesus also said that you shall have what you believe... that all things are possible if you have Faith."
Well, yes as, we cannot please Him without faith. All things are possible with prayer and faith...as long as these things we pray are in line with His will, and not for selfish reasons.


One of the very best ways that God takes care of us is to not answer a prayer., except to say "no".


"Demas left Paul and returned to his old life....Where is Demas? He's in Heaven."

"For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame."
Hebrews 6:4-6

The people in those verses were unsaved Jews (hebrews).
Demas was born again.




"This means that "knowing them by their Fruit", ... you really have to know your Pauline Theology or these sweet loving Devil's will ruin your faith, and that is the ruin of your Christianity"
I would say that ALL theology is just as important as Pauls. OT, NT, Gospels, Revelation and so on.

There is difference between theology and "doctrine".
Jesus gave Paul the doctrine of the Church, which is much more specific.
For example, The doctrine of "spiritual Gifts". Thats Paul's
The doctrine of how to choose a Pastor or become one.. That Paul's
The doctrine of how to put on the whole armor of God... Thats Paul's.
The doctrine of how to walk in the Spirit. That's Paul
The doctrine of "justification by faith".. That's Paul
The doctrine of how to give money ...That's Paul
The doctrine of marriage, sexuality, and the Grace of God... That's Paul.
And all that is just a small part of Paul's Doctrine that came from Jesus TO Paul.


"The devil has read this verse long before you showed up.
So, he will send in his people and they will talk about God's love, and seem sweet and teach the devil's lies while they talk about "love, love, love, all you need is love".

Yes, the devil knows every jot and tittle in the Word...better than any human could. I'm not a huggy bear kissy face kind of person, and I prefer ALL of God's attributes, not JUST His love. He is JUST..."He wages war in righteousness" His wrath is just, his mercies are new everyday, He is a jealous God but, in all these things He remains Holy.

If one truly wants to know the truth, God will reveal it to them.

Don't forget His "vengeance".

2nd Thessalonians 1: 8 "in flaming FIRE taking VENGEANCE on them that know not God, and that do not OBEY the GOSPEL or our Lord Jesus The Christ"

 

[Behold]

perhaps temporarily, with prayer, but it can turn into a trap. it can become a preoccupation, which takes away from our sanctification. remember, the devil was always close to Jesus - Judas, Peter, in the Temple.

Is the devil close to you?
He's not close to me.
I know him, and i know how to deal with Him., and that is not to believe that God uses Him to deal with me, or with any Believer.
A really bad theology is that God's sets the devil loose on you to cause you to suffer, to help you to "spiritually" mature.
Lunatic Christianity is...>"well, see, that Cancer is going to make you a better person". "losing your child is going to help you love God more".
Ect.

 

[mjrhealth]

Hyper grace is used to describe a theology that ignores a sinful walk or antinomianism saying Jesus does everything, the believer does nothing. Literally all the warnings in scripture are ignored, and rewards are fortited not salvation or actually missing knowing Jesus. But after discussions where I am fried and sent to hell, which itself is a sin worthy of being lost, this movement is determined to destroy the church believing it is the work of the anti-Christ. Make no mistake these folk are violent, suggesting holding certain positions is worse than murder, a capital crime. In their view I should be dead, while coming to share love and grace, salvation in Christ.

Now if you want testimony to a spirit not of God, it is one that desires the death of fellow believers. If one compares the theology, it is almost identical except for a point about security in Christ. But in their view that is worthy of hell, and if they could, death here today. Now if you want to define rebellion against this phrase

25 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,
26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will
2 Tim 2:25-26

Now I come 100% gently and calmly but it has not stopped the assault and antagonism. It was a surprise to me that someone so close in belief could emotionally be so far away, but then theology does not save us, faith in the cross and its fruit in our lives does. A hard heart grown up in a church were internal reality and emotional hurt is never resolved, it is all ideas and beliefs, with the least resistance path taken, God does it all, we just need to rest. And there is truth in our hearts, set free, cleansed, made whole, there is absolute rest, but not this sinner do not worry in your continual sin and hardness of heart and unbelief, God has hidden your sin behind Christs blood, so be at peace.

It is true God has covered over our sin, as well as washed, healed and made us whole, but not he is ignoring the individual without healing, honesty or transformation, they are saved. That is a gospel of sinners entering heaven which is heresy. The apostles wanted to emphasis this by saying certain lifestyles are so bad, no one living like this knows Jesus

9 We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,
10 for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers--and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine
1 Tim 1:9-10

This is quite a list, but stated to emphasis, this is not even close to being like Jesus.

3 among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people.
Eph 5:3

This sounds hard on sinners, but this is life to those who walk according to the Spirit. You can test yourself and what image comes up in your mind regarding the people described here. If the ways of the world seem appealing and the ways of Christ boring and burdensome, you are sowing to the flesh and walking in and of the world. If you want to know Christ, repent, humble yourself and seek Him in prayer and petition.

God bless you

Can you imagine what the world would be like, if everyone simply believed they where saved and knew it, the world would be a different place, but along come the religious and start hanging yokes around peoples necks taking away that little bit of freedom Christ gave them and filing them with Guilt, that is not Gods doing.

 

[Behold]

You could be right, in theory. Except we are created being into which God breathed life. We have a spirit and soul. It appears we are bound to this physical existence to the extent we need a resurrection of the body to gain eternal life with Jesus. If we were just a spirit resurrection would not be necessary.

Only a dead person, who is born again will be "resurrected".
The living believers, will be flying into the Air to meet our Redeemer.
Keep in mind that the "born again" part of a person is not the soul or the body.
The Born again part is Actually GOD Himself coming to live inside and thus regenerate their dead Spirit.
The "soul" is the mind realm.
The SPIRIT< is the LIFE of God..
Big difference.

 

[Behold]

Can you imagine what the world would be like, if everyone simply believed they where saved and knew it, the world would be a different place, but along come the religious and start hanging yokes around peoples necks taking away that little bit of freedom Christ gave them and filing them with Guilt, that is not Gods doing.

Jesus came to set of free from our attempt to be right with God.....This is "the gift of Salvation"
The Devil then follows up and causes most believers to start working to try to get into heaven.

"you are a very energetic Christian, you have built 12 Churches, have led thousands to Christ, and you have a huge TV Ministry....."
"yes, thank you, and IF I can just endure a little longer, i hope i am able to make it into heaven....that is my (Faith)."

 

[FollowHim]

Can you imagine what the world would be like, if everyone simply believed they where saved and knew it, the world would be a different place, but along come the religious and start hanging yokes around peoples necks taking away that little bit of freedom Christ gave them and filing them with Guilt, that is not Gods doing.

You seem to have conflated a pure walk with an impure walk and a guilty conscience.
Paul continually stated his conscience was clear, but was very concerned if as a believer he caused other believers to fall into a bad conscience and do something against the faith and thereby sin.

A guilty conscience is resolved when we repent, confess and trust on the cross and Jesus's forgiveness. But this is received by faith, and the anointing of the Holy Spirit. So powerful was the cleansing of peoples consciences Hebrews remarked on it

9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper
Hebrews 9:9

4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.
1 Corinthians 4:4

12 Now this is our boast: Our conscience testifies that we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially in our relations with you, in the holiness and sincerity that are from God. We have done so not according to worldly wisdom but according to God's grace.
2 Cor 1:12

A faith that ignores the conscience is a corrupt faith of no value.

 

[aspen]

Is the devil close to you?
He's not close to me.
I know him, and i know how to deal with Him., and that is not to believe that God uses Him to deal with me, or with any Believer.
A really bad theology is that God's sets the devil loose on you to cause you to suffer, to help you to "spiritually" mature.
Lunatic Christianity is...>"well, see, that Cancer is going to make you a better person". "losing your child is going to help you love God more".
Ect.

Hmm....

seems to me that the devil plays a big role is spirituality - you claim to be casting him out frequently according to your own account.

he is merely a warning to me.

as far as sickness or the devil being let loose on people - God bringing good out of bad situations has nothing to do with either. however, it sounds as if you are denying that god uses the devil to bring about good, which goes against scripture

 

[Nancy]

"This verse is speaking about bearing Spiritual Fruit."
Yes, it sure is, and is that not what God desires from us?

More then fruit bearing, God wants us to love Him with our lives.
"fruit bearing" can be performed by an unbeliever, but to love God with all your heart, is a believer's best "fruit".




"Fruit bearing is done before other people"
Not always, and many times it is something some do for accolades so, they have their reward...but then you have the anonymous folks in the background...Gods unsung servants.

"fruit bearing" is something that other people see you do"

If its inward, then that is "right motive" and only God can see that...



"Jesus also said that you shall have what you believe... that all things are possible if you have Faith."
Well, yes as, we cannot please Him without faith. All things are possible with prayer and faith...as long as these things we pray are in line with His will, and not for selfish reasons.


One of the very best ways that God takes care of us is to not answer a prayer., except to say "no".


"Demas left Paul and returned to his old life....Where is Demas? He's in Heaven."

"For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame."
Hebrews 6:4-6

The people in those verses were unsaved Jews (hebrews).
Demas was born again.




"This means that "knowing them by their Fruit", ... you really have to know your Pauline Theology or these sweet loving Devil's will ruin your faith, and that is the ruin of your Christianity"
I would say that ALL theology is just as important as Pauls. OT, NT, Gospels, Revelation and so on.

There is difference between theology and "doctrine".
Jesus gave Paul the doctrine of the Church, which is much more specific.
For example, The doctrine of "spiritual Gifts". Thats Paul's
The doctrine of how to choose a Pastor or become one.. That Paul's
The doctrine of how to put on the whole armor of God... Thats Paul's.
The doctrine of how to walk in the Spirit. That's Paul
The doctrine of "justification by faith".. That's Paul
The doctrine of how to give money ...That's Paul
The doctrine of marriage, sexuality, and the Grace of God... That's Paul.
And all that is just a small part of Paul's Doctrine that came from Jesus TO Paul.


"The devil has read this verse long before you showed up.
So, he will send in his people and they will talk about God's love, and seem sweet and teach the devil's lies while they talk about "love, love, love, all you need is love".

Yes, the devil knows every jot and tittle in the Word...better than any human could. I'm not a huggy bear kissy face kind of person, and I prefer ALL of God's attributes, not JUST His love. He is JUST..."He wages war in righteousness" His wrath is just, his mercies are new everyday, He is a jealous God but, in all these things He remains Holy.

If one truly wants to know the truth, God will reveal it to them.

Don't forget His "vengeance".

2nd Thessalonians 1: 8 "in flaming FIRE taking VENGEANCE on them that know not God, and that do not OBEY the GOSPEL or our Lord Jesus The Christ"

"This verse is speaking about bearing Spiritual Fruit."
Yes, it sure is, and is that not what God desires from us?

"More then fruit bearing, God wants us to love Him with our lives.
"fruit bearing" can be performed by an unbeliever, but to love God with all your heart, is a believer's best "fruit".
True fruitbearing is done from the heart and to do that, you MUST love God. That's the first commandment! Should go without saying if one is truly a Christian.

""fruit bearing" is something that other people see you do"

Okay, so we have Matthew 5:16

16 "In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."

Then a couple verses later we have, Matthew 6:1

""Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven."

We can let our light shine before men as long as that light does not shine on us but should always be used as a reflection of God's glory. So in that sense, yes it is fine and sometimes un- avoidable to let others see what you are doing.

"One of the very best ways that God takes care of us is to not answer a prayer., except to say "no".
In own experience it seems that God answers all prayer and it is either yes, no or wait. And the waiting can be tough sometimes, for sure!

"They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us." John 2:19

If Demas left the Lords people and went back to his old ways, I'm thinking he made his choice. We CAN walk away you know. The ones that walk away were never saved to begin with IMHO.

"Don't forget His "vengeance".

2nd Thessalonians 1: 8 "in flaming FIRE taking VENGEANCE on them that know not God, and that do not OBEY the GOSPEL or our Lord Jesus The Christ"

Nope, didn't forget His vengeance and all of His other Characteristics...just don't want to write too long a para.
In Him
nancy

 

[Joseph77]

If one truly wants to know the truth, God will reveal it to them.

It continues to be hidden from most posters and people in churches and people of the world,
just as God Says and Reveals in His Word.

 

[justbyfaith]

More then fruit bearing, God wants us to love Him with our lives.

The fruit of the Spirit is love (Galatians 5:22-23)

"fruit bearing" can be performed by an unbeliever,

Not the fruit of the Spirit; for an unbeliever does not have the Spirit.

See also Matthew 7:17-18 and Luke 6:43-45.

"you are a very energetic Christian, you have built 12 Churches, have led thousands to Christ, and you have a huge TV Ministry....."
"yes, thank you, and IF I can just endure a little longer, i hope i am able to make it into heaven....that is my (Faith)."

Yes, for a man is not saved through his works; but by a continued faith in Jesus Christ.

See also 1 Corinthians 9:27.

Not in the Bible of these boards.

1Co 9:27, But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

 

[Nancy]

It continues to be hidden from most posters and people in churches and people of the world,
just as God Says and Reveals in His Word.

Yes, it does as, these do not love the Truth and do not have it in them.

 

[mjrhealth]

You seem to have conflated a pure walk with an impure walk and a guilty conscience.
Paul continually stated his conscience was clear, but was very concerned if as a believer he caused other believers to fall into a bad conscience and do something against the faith and thereby sin.

A guilty conscience is resolved when we repent, confess and trust on the cross and Jesus's forgiveness. But this is received by faith, and the anointing of the Holy Spirit. So powerful was the cleansing of peoples consciences Hebrews remarked on it

9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper
Hebrews 9:9

4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.
1 Corinthians 4:4

12 Now this is our boast: Our conscience testifies that we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially in our relations with you, in the holiness and sincerity that are from God. We have done so not according to worldly wisdom but according to God's grace.
2 Cor 1:12

A faith that ignores the conscience is a corrupt faith of no value.

Pray tell me for what reason should a forgiven man have a guilty conscience

.

 

[FollowHim]

Pray tell me for what reason should a forgiven man have a guilty conscience

.

This is the point of your confusion. We are not guilty of sins repented of and forgiven, but guilty of sins and issues we avoid and refuse to deal with. You cannot be a forgiven individual who commits sin without any regard and not be under judgement. It is not that our sin is judged that is the problem is that it kills us and others. It is like saying I have an antidote to all known poisons but I am going to drink this poison and ignore the antidote. And Jesus came so that we can walk like Him. If believers choose to ignore His path and go their own way, then they are lost, ignoring the very path and gift Jesus has brought.

Our conscience is our flag telling us when we have strayed and their is a conflict. Having a sensitive conscience is a gift, not to keep clean as if this is the goal, but to not destroy oneself and others by lack of care. Paul was so cautious of vegetarians and those offended by eating food sacrificed to idols, he would avoid meat or food if it caused a problem to others. Clearly if Paul felt our conscience meant nothing, and whether it screamed at us or was silent did not matter, he would not have mentioned these important issues. The real reason for a good conscience is we are all very fragile and we need care as we live our lives.

A seared conscience is a sign of a hard heart and no empathy to others is a trait of a psychopath. All bad things.

God bless you

 

[mjrhealth]

This is the point of your confusion. We are not guilty of sins repented of and forgiven, but guilty of sins and issues we avoid and refuse to deal with. You cannot be a forgiven individual who commits sin without any regard and not be under judgement. It is not that our sin is judged that is the problem is that it kills us and others. It is like saying I have an antidote to all known poisons but I am going to drink this poison and ignore the antidote. And Jesus came so that we can walk like Him. If believers choose to ignore His path and go their own way, then they are lost, ignoring the very path and gift Jesus has brought.

Not confused at all. You presume that because you have set a bunch of rules that you must live by and hat if anyone else doesnt they are not good enough, They are your standards and they are what you "judge" everyone else on. The works that Christ did, made all who believe in Him good enough, and that is why they are saved, because of Faith and confidence in Him, Jesus and God knew full well that few would choose the hard path, but even those who choose teh hard path fall down which is why we have grace, but so few like grace its far to simple and requires little effort, make that works on the persons part. Believe. Men love to boast, look at me God im not like all those other sinners,

 

[justbyfaith]

Not confused at all. You presume that because you have set a bunch of rules that you must live by and hat if anyone else doesnt they are not good enough, They are your standards and they are what you "judge" everyone else on. The works that Christ did, made all who believe in Him good enough, and that is why they are saved, because of Faith and confidence in Him, Jesus and God knew full well that few would choose the hard path, but even those who choose teh hard path fall down which is why we have grace, but so few like grace its far to simple and requires little effort, make that works on the persons part. Believe. Men love to boast, look at me God im not like all those other sinners,

Part of believing in Jesus is to accept that He is the God who created you (John 8:24). Otherwise you will die in your sins (sorry to beat a dead horse; but I think that this is important for you to grasp).

 

[mjrhealth]

Part of believing in Jesus is to accept that He is the God who created you (John 8:24). Otherwise you will die in your sins (sorry to beat a dead horse; but I think that this is important for you to grasp).

Yes you keep telling me, thing you do not understand, You worry about your own salvation mine is sure in Christ.

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes you keep telling me, thing you do not understand, You worry about your own salvation mine is sure in Christ.

You have a false assurance and will surely die in your sins except you repent of your unbelief.

You have said on a number of occasions that you think that I am unwilling to come to Jesus that I might have life, because I study the holy scriptures.

I would say that you would do well to judge yourself rather than other people; as there is a scriptural basis for saying that if you continue down the same path that you are on, you are not going to make it.

 

[FollowHim]

Not confused at all. You presume that because you have set a bunch of rules that you must live by and hat if anyone else doesnt they are not good enough, They are your standards and they are what you "judge" everyone else on. The works that Christ did, made all who believe in Him good enough, and that is why they are saved, because of Faith and confidence in Him, Jesus and God knew full well that few would choose the hard path, but even those who choose teh hard path fall down which is why we have grace, but so few like grace its far to simple and requires little effort, make that works on the persons part. Believe. Men love to boast, look at me God im not like all those other sinners,

You talk about rules I talk about love and Gods heart. As a child we learn what pleases and upsets our families. We adjust to make things go well. You could think of these as rules but then one must not love God or walk in love to think like this.

Emotions, reading body language, intonation are not difficult things but they are very important. It is how you can tell what to listen to and what to do. Life is full of lost people who need a focus, but in Christ we have been set free, made whole. There are some who claim to know the King, to see Him and know His will, to believe they are loved but do not care about following or being honest. They will say its impossible to love and be righteous, to care, to serve, to humble oneself, to be gentle or even real in this world of betrayers.

But then it will all become clear the day we meet Him face to face. Even then the presumptuous will say "Lord Lord", but their evil deeds precede them, because they have no shame or wisdom or desire to actually be in the Kingdom, just appear to be. God bless you

 

[RogerDC]

OSAS is simply the idea of Eternal Life, stated as OSAS.
Its nothing more or less.
It simply means that Jesus saved you once, and Jesus keeps you saved

At what point is a believer saved? As soon as he believes? One week after he first believed? One year? When, exactly?

If you are saved, when were you saved?

 

[justbyfaith]

At what point is a believer saved? As soon as he believes? One week after he first believed? One year? When, exactly?

If you are saved, when were you saved?

The answer is found in Romans 10:13.

Technically, one is saved because of calling on the name of the Lord (John 1:12 is a parallel verse); as a direct result of doing so.

Now, one may be regenerated and renewed shortly afterward, or else at the moment of confession.

What matters is that salvation is wrought because the person calls on the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for salvation (see also Acts of the Apostles 4:10-12).