Christians and the Law of Moses

[Joseph77]

And where do i find these testimonies from these early Christians?

Tradition! (to music? )
Contrary to Scripture , of course ! (sad music ? )

 

[Raccoon1010]

The Law of Moses has caused a lot of confusion among Christians and continues to do so. Some Christians believe that nothing within the Torah is applicable to them. Others go in the opposite direction and imagine that everything is still valid. And that is why it is necessary to understand how the Law of Moses applies (or does not apply) today to those who are under the New Covenant.

WHERE IS IT FOUND?
The Law of Moses is frequently referred to as the Torah, but it is only the last four books of the Torah which actually contain the Law. So we need to know what is written in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

HOW IS IT FOUND?
When we study those books we find that God’s commandments are interspersed with the history of the Israelites in the wilderness. So all the laws are not found in one place, neither are they all categorized neatly into their different components.

WHAT ARE THE COMPONENTS OF THE LAW?
There are at least ten broad components to the Law of Moses. They are laws applicable to the:
1. Tabernacle (or temple) and its sacrifices and offerings
2. Levitical priesthood
3. Levites
4. Feasts (including harvests, tithes, feasts, festivals and holy days)
5. Covenants with Israel
6. Civil and military laws (including laws applicable to physical appearance, purification, Nazarites, marriage, inheritance, vows, numbering, battles, sieges, and spoils of war, kings, division of land, etc.)
7. Criminal laws or laws of justice (including usury) which frequently had the death penalty
8. Health and disease laws
9. Dietary laws, and
10. Moral and Spiritual laws (including the Ten Commandments)

THE TEN COMMANDMENT ARE ETERNAL
The Ten Commandments are based upon the absolute holiness and righteousness of God – the character of God. Since God does not change, those laws are eternal. While they were written on tablets of stone in the Old Covenant, they are written on hearts and minds by the Holy Spirit within the New Covenant. And they are summed up in the Law of Christ, which is the Law of Love. So Christians are not lawless and devoid of the commandments of God. Indeed the Law of Love is even more stringent than the Law of Moses.

WHICH LAWS ARE NULL AND VOID
According to the epistle to the Hebrews, the laws pertaining to the tabernacle or temple, the Levitical priesthood, the Levities, the offerings and sacrifices, the feasts, festivals and holy days, as well as ceremonial observances, are all null and void. Other laws pertaining to Israel as a nation cannot be applied since the temple has been destroyed. So the only laws which are meaningful are the moral and spiritual laws.

WHICH LAWS ARE STILL VALID
According to Acts 15:28,29, the Holy Spirit has applied only four laws to the Church, and they primarily forbid the consumption of blood or meats sacrificed to idols. Fornication is also forbidden: For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye [1] abstain from meats offered to idols, and [2] from blood, and [3] from things strangled, and [4] from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Laws from the OT can be found still today in ordinary everyday laws of nations, murder and stealing or punishable. I think the NT provided some with some time to repent, so instead of killing them they punish and put in jails for some time to repent (not that they do).

And as @justbyfaith stated the OT Laws are still valid and we are to judge with righteous judgments John 7:24. If you are without sin?

Anyways, I look forward to reading this thread, great topic :)

 

[Joseph77]

I think the NT provided some with some time to repent, so instead of killing them they punish and put in jails for some time to repent (not that they do).

I think the nation of Israel did not have jails. (used to be a website showing this , simply and conclusively in line with Torah, Prophets, Psalms and New Testament….. I have no idea if it is still around/ available) ...
I don't remember giving time to repent , except when God Told Them, if you sin without knowing it , and later it becomes known to you that you sinned, repent then, or something like that.

 

[Grailhunter]

Since the Ten Commandments are within the Law of Moses, they cannot be said to be "distinctly separate". However, they are the moral and spiritual laws of God, therefore eternal. And the Ten Commandments have been incorporated into the Law of Christ, as Paul clearly shows us. Once again:

TEN COMMANDMENTS----> TWO GREATEST COMMANDMENTS----> ONE SUPREME COMMANDMENT (the Law of Christ or the Law of Love).

They are eternal.... for the Jews.... and if you follow one you have to follow them all. The 613 Laws of Moses, choosing to follow some and not others is sacrilege in Judaism and Christianity. Christians are not under any part of the Mosaic Law and if you look to them as a moral guide, you are severed from Christ and have fallen from Grace. No Old Testament Law in Christianity. No example of anyone standing in two Covenants with God. If you step in to one, you step out of other.

And by the way most likely the Ten Laws you think are the Ten Commandments are not the Laws that God called the Ten Commandment....The actual Laws that God formed a Covenant with Israel.

And there were 14 Laws spoken at Sinai and all of them are only the summary of Laws to come.

 

[Joseph77]

Is it a LAW, TORAH, PRECEPT, CONDITION, DOCTRINE, or other ?

That is , what Jesus says: If you (anyone) wants to be My permanent disciple, you must give up everything … ?

Including past trusts, past beliefs, past traditions, past rights, past desires, past thoughts, past dreams, past hopes , past plans, (i.e. everything of the flesh, of the carnal self, of life apart from Christ) ….

 

[Raccoon1010]

I think the nation of Israel did not have jails. (used to be a website showing this , simply and conclusively in line with Torah, Prophets, Psalms and New Testament….. I have no idea if it is still around/ available) ...
I don't remember giving time to repent , except when God Told Them, if you sin without knowing it , and later it becomes known to you that you sinned, repent then, or something like that.

I was actually supporting Jesus the Christ John 8:7. Yet what can a righteous judge do with someone knowing Jesus stance on not killing sinners? The way I reasoned it out was that a righteous judge might stop people from sinning against others, and the only way to stop them (murderers and thieves) is to jail them for a reasonable time, and which also might give them the time to repent.

It is the natural course for a righteous judgment system after the NT came to be. Jails. And yes the Apostles were released from jails by angels Acts of the Apostles 5:19. But I'm no expert on Israel :)

 

[Grailhunter]

Is it a LAW, TORAH, PRECEPT, CONDITION, DOCTRINE, or other ?

That is , what Jesus says: If you (anyone) wants to be My permanent disciple, you must give up everything … ?

Including past trusts, past beliefs, past traditions, past rights, past desires, past thoughts, past dreams, past hopes , past plans, (i.e. everything of the flesh, of the carnal self, of life apart from Christ) ….

This should be interesting....you mind explaining that?

 

[Joseph77]

I'm just asking what is it : or what does someone think it is ? A Law? Torah ? A Precept? A Condition(to do or satisfy) ? A Doctrine ? or other ?
That is , what Jesus says: If you (anyone) wants to be My permanent disciple, you must give up everything … ?

 

[Grailhunter]

I'm just asking what is it : or what does someone think it is ? A Law? Torah ? A Precept? A Condition(to do or satisfy) ? A Doctrine ? or other ?
That is , what Jesus says: If you (anyone) wants to be My permanent disciple, you must give up everything … ?

Both needs explaining. "what is it?" and "give up everything"

 

[Joseph77]

I was actually supporting Jesus the Christ John 8:7. Yet what can a righteous judge do with someone knowing Jesus stance on not killing sinners? The way I reasoned it out was that a righteous judge might stop people from sinning against others, and the only way to stop them (murderers and thieves) is to jail them for a reasonable time, and which also might give them the time to repent.

It is the natural course for a righteous judgment system after the NT came to be. Jails. And yes the Apostles were released from jails by angels Acts of the Apostles 5:19. But I'm no expert on Israel

footnote: Those who follow Jesus learn eventually or quickly to repent of the pagan &m*ss&, and never have anything to do with it.

Jesus never said secular governments would stop killing. In fact, He said they (political, religious, other leaders/groups countries and so forth) will 'massively' (frequently) kill followers of Jesus, as happened millions if not billions of times throughout history
including recently (the last ten years ) ….

Society , including especially the USA, has become more and more opposed to Jesus, and the jails are notoriously unjust, not fulfilling God's Plan nor Purpose …. (He Permits them, and has Himself set boundaries on them, including when they are started and when they are shut down anywhere) ….

As with all of God's Plan, He Does as He Pleases, and May give time either to repent or to fill up judgment for one's own self, or for a nation...

 

[Joseph77]

I'm just asking what is it -- THIS > WHEN Jesus says: If you (anyone) wants to be My permanent disciple, you must give up everything … ?

A Law or something else ?

 

[Raccoon1010]

footnote: Those who follow Jesus learn eventually or quickly to repent of the pagan &m*ss&, and never have anything to do with it.

Jesus never said secular governments would stop killing. In fact, He said they (political, religious, other leaders/groups countries and so forth) will 'massively' (frequently) kill followers of Jesus, as happened millions if not billions of times throughout history
including recently (the last ten years ) ….

Society , including especially the USA, has become more and more opposed to Jesus, and the jails are notoriously unjust, not fulfilling God's Plan nor Purpose …. (He Permits them, and has Himself set boundaries on them, including when they are started and when they are shut down anywhere) ….

As with all of God's Plan, He Does as He Pleases, and May give time either to repent or to fill up judgment for one's own self, or for a nation...

I'm not much into conspiracy theories. Including your views regarding &m*ss&. We'll differ there. Cheers:)

 

[Joseph77]

I'm not much into conspiracy theories. Including your views regarding &m*ss&. We'll differ there....

It is no conspiracy (or is it), it is no theory at all. If you look for the truth, it is painful, and true.
God's Word is going to "differ" with your tradition, unless you turn away from all sin, to God, i.e repenting, as He Allows.
Charles Chiniquoy and Keith Green and probably Martin Luther and thousands of others free from the deception have published the truth about the pagn ceremonies - the traditions that are directly opposed to Jesus, and directly contrary to God's Word (reading God's Word, prayerfully seeking the Truth, is best - God will not deceive anyone, although He allows billions who do not seek Him to remain totally deluded) ....

 

[Enoch111]

Christians are not under any part of the Mosaic Law...

False. Not "under" but "obedient to" the four laws from the Torah given in Acts 15. Those four laws are binding on Christians.

...and if you look to them as a moral guide, you are severed from Christ and have fallen from Grace.

False. Only those who teach that Torah observance is necessary for salvation fall from grace.

But that no man is justified by the Law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith... For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the Law; ye are fallen from grace.(Gal 3:11;5:3,4)

But that is not the same as the Ten Commandments NOT being the moral guide of Christians.

ROMANS 13: THE LAW OF CHRIST AND THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the Law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the Law. (Rom 13:7-10)

 

[Brakelite]

For the Christian, who by the way is now Israel, the ten commandments are promises if accepted by faith.
You shall not, have other Gods...
You shall not...
Remember...
Do not...
For the one who believes, they are creative commands and promises... Covenant promises. Just as God said, let there be, and it stood fast, so has He said, thou shalt not... And it was so. If you believe.

 

[Grailhunter]

False. Not "under" but "obedient to" the four laws from the Torah given in Acts 15. Those four laws are binding on Christians.

False. Only those who teach that Torah observance is necessary for salvation fall from grace.

But that no man is justified by the Law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith... For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the Law; ye are fallen from grace.(Gal 3:11;5:3,4)

But that is not the same as the Ten Commandments NOT being the moral guide of Christians.

ROMANS 13: THE LAW OF CHRIST AND THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the Law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the Law. (Rom 13:7-10)

Grailhunter said: Christians are not under any part of the Mosaic Law...

Enoch said: False. Not "under" but "obedient to" the four laws from the Torah given in Acts 15. Those four laws are binding on Christians.

Grailhunter said:You make this easy for me.
Act 15:23-29 and they sent this letter by them, “The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings. “Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls, it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. “Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth “For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.”

(There is no mention of the Mosaic Laws and if it did listing four of the laws from the 613 Mosaic Laws it would be a violation sacrilegious to both Judaism and Christianity. The four items are described as essentials, not laws by any implication.)

Grailhunter said:...and if you look to them as a moral guide, you are severed from Christ and have fallen from Grace.

Enoch said: False. Only those who teach that Torah observance is necessary for salvation fall from grace.
But that no man is justified by the Law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith... For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the Law; ye are fallen from grace.(Gal 3:11;5:3,4)
But that is not the same as the Ten Commandments NOT being the moral guide of Christians.

Grailhunter said: Wrong in so many ways….The ten laws you are referring to are not laws at all, they are a summary of laws in the body of the Mosaic Laws and there are fourteen laws give at Mt Sinai not just ten. God refers to a different set of actually "ten laws" as the “Ten Commandments” The Ten Laws that he would give Moses while he was up with God on Mt. Sinai. The Commandments that he would use to make a Covenant with Israel and the Ten Commandment He told Moses to write on the Tablets. Again no Mosaic Laws in Christianity.

Enoch: ROMANS 13: THE LAW OF CHRIST AND THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the Law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the Law. (Rom 13:7-10)

Grailhunter said: Wrong again! These were not laws listed to follow, Paul was pointing out that they were summed up in the saying “You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no wrong to a neighbor; love therefore is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:9-10 No Mosaic Laws in Christianity. Christians do not us the Mosaic Laws as a moral guide, they are not required to observe the Mosaic Law, they are not under the Mosaic Law, they cannot sin under the Mosaic Law. Now if you want me to list all the scriptures that prove we are not under the Law....let me know. Again if you look to the Mosaic Laws as a moral guide, you are severed from Christ and have fallen from Grace. If you step into the Old Covenant, you step out of the New Covenant.

 

[Joseph77]

Anyways, I look forward to reading this thread, great topic

We can always hope, and pray, that
Truth always helps those who believe, even though with it may be great persecution/pain/ grief.
God Accomplishes so much more in His Grace with Torah, than would be possible only with Torah.
"In the year 1729 1 began not only to read but to study the Bible, as the one, the only standard of truth, and the only model of pure religion. Hence I saw, in a clearer and clearer light, the indispensable necessity of having the mind which was in Christ, and of walking as Christ also walked; even of having not some part only, but all the mind which was in Him; and of walking as He walked, not only in many or in most respects, but in all things."
worthychristianbooks dot com/a-plain-account-of-christian-perfection/

 

[Raccoon1010]

We can always hope, and pray, that
Truth always helps those who believe, even though with it may be great persecution/pain/ grief.
God Accomplishes so much more in His Grace with Torah, than would be possible only with Torah.
"In the year 1729 1 began not only to read but to study the Bible, as the one, the only standard of truth, and the only model of pure religion. Hence I saw, in a clearer and clearer light, the indispensable necessity of having the mind which was in Christ, and of walking as Christ also walked; even of having not some part only, but all the mind which was in Him; and of walking as He walked, not only in many or in most respects, but in all things."
worthychristianbooks dot com/a-plain-account-of-christian-perfection/

Yeah if I looked at the bible only I would see a lot of contradiction.

 

[Joseph77]

Yeah if I looked at the bible only I would see a lot of contradiction.

That's why tradition must be all forgotten, except for the little bit if any you know that is not contradictory.
What is taught in world carnal churches is all contradictory.

 

[Raccoon1010]

That's why tradition must be all forgotten, except for the little bit if any you know that is not contradictory.
What is taught in world carnal churches is all contradictory.

You have some serious issues. I think you should pick a church and be part of society.