The "Fall" in Genesis (what does the text of Scripture say?)

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,523
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
That is an interesting concept (one I had not considered). I do disagree but that is because I see physical death as the consequence of Adam's sin and the "second death" a consequence of the Cross.

John, your taught blinkers are stopping you from seeing the truth.

Physical death was always present for all of mankind. However, the length of a mans' life was initially around the 900-1000 years duration before it slowly reduced to no more than 120 years duration as shown in the attached chart.

God said that He would not contend with man for a prolong period of time like around 900-1000 years for man was indeed flesh, and so he shortened the length of mankind's life to no more than 120 years. (Genesis 6:3)

If God had created mankind as flesh, then death was already a consequence when God created Adam and as such the fall did not introduce physical death into the equation for mankind.

Shalom
 

Attachments

  • Patriarchs ages.pdf
    285.3 KB · Views: 0

John Caldwell

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2019
1,704
973
113
North Augusta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
John, your taught blinkers are stopping you from seeing the truth.

Physical death was always present for all of mankind. However, the length of a mans' life was initially around the 900-1000 years duration before it slowly reduced to no more than 120 years duration as shown in the attached chart.

God said that He would not contend with man for a prolong period of time like around 900-1000 years for man was indeed flesh, and so he shortened the length of mankind's life to no more than 120 years. (Genesis 6:3)

If God had created mankind as flesh, then death was already a consequence when God created Adam and as such the fall did not introduce physical death into the equation for mankind.

Shalom
No, the natural is first, not the spiritual (1 Cor. 15).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Joseph77

Yan

Active Member
Jun 15, 2020
410
143
43
City of David
the-land-of-hope.blogspot.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Indonesia
Leviticus 18:21
"And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD"

Pass through the fire is the requirement that forced to us (christian) by them (moslem), they called this process as "circumcision". They forced us to be tested by them with the devil to prove that whosoever could "pass through the fire" will be called as prophet, but in fact it was not a test but envy (Luke 11:46; Matthew 23:4; Galatians 6:12-18). They want us to be circumcised because they will measured our will to obey the law (Romans 7:7-8), but they measured us using a weight of temptation from the devil. Because they're worship the gods of Egyptian, so they're worship cat as a god presence of Bastet/Al-lat/Ba'al/Ananel (Romans 1:21-23; 1 Peter 5:8-9). So, do not ever again to
stigmatize the other person as a false prophet that you will be judged by God to take responsibility for the safety of your neighbor, the stigmatization will make them to be judged by people and the same as commit a killing.
So, the circumcision was only a formality to measuring our faith with the law, behind those requirements they treat us as a voodoo magical doll, this was also had happended to apostle Paul (2 Corinthians 12:7-10; 1 Timothy 3:7; Acts of the Apostles 19:13-20).
The spiritual circumcision was meant to forced us to be like them and their ancestor Ishmael (Genesis 17:9-27), that's why Jesus who had cancel the Torah (Ephesians 2:11-22) warned us to not re-apply Torah and circumcision (Galatians 3:8-14).

In ancient Israel there was two main religion which is Hellenistic Judaism and Torah Judaism, hellenistic people is now acknoledged as Islam & Kabbalah and Torah judaism people was also spread into Christianity, Catholic, Orthodox, Judaism.
Since 70 a.d the people of Hellenistic were hide in Petra Jordan and some hide in Mecca to their ancestor Qedarites. After that they want to rebuilt the temple with "their own taste risen messiah" called mohammed to conquer the Jerusalem back into their own hands.

 
Last edited:

dev553344

Well-Known Member
Jul 14, 2020
14,476
17,040
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Genesis 2:16-17 16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."


Notice that God DOES NOT tell Adam IF you eat from it you will surely die. God commands Adam not to eat of the fruit and tells him that in the day he eats of it he will surely die.

Notice that God does not tell Adam that he will “die on the day he eats of the fruit” but that in the day he eats of it he will die, or that death will be a certainty (מוּת‎ מוּת or transliterated muth muth, die die). ‎ From the point of the command to Adam’s sin death was in the balance, hanging out just beyond the frame. Once Adam disobeys death will enter the world (at least the world of man).

Genesis 3:17-19 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life. "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."


Adam ate of the fruit.

What was the consequences of Adam’s disobedience? 1. The ground was cursed and Adam would have to work to eat of it. 2. Adam would return to the dust from which he was taken (Adam would die and his body would decay).

What change(s) happened to Adam?

Genesis 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"—

Adam became like God knowing good and evil.

What did God do because of this change?


Genesis 3:23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.

Adam was sent out of the Garden and back to the ground from which Adam was made (remember, Adam was not created in the Garden but outside of the Garden and then placed in it).

It was commanded to eat herb and fruit as good for meat. Genesis 1:29

Then after the fall they went to eating burnt offerings and sacrificed animals. Then animal meat was good for repentance. Leviticus 9:3-4

Then when Jesus came he gave his disciples bread and fruit wine and said it was his body and blood. Matthew 26:26-28

When I look at these sequences of events, I see something interesting that leads me to the conclusion that killing animals and eating them may have something to do with the tree of knowledge of good and evil and the fall of man.
 
Last edited:

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,523
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
No, the natural is first, not the spiritual (1 Cor. 15).

1 Cor 15 is speaking about Adam bringing the second death upon all of mankind. We speak of the second death as being a spiritual death but the reality is that the second death is a complete separation of each of our spirits from God. It is not as such speaking of a spiritual death. That has been a man made construct and it is not in line with God's words on the subject.

Shalom
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,523
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
I do not see most of your posts, but since this one came up,
why don't you try (as if it is possible) to show that one , whether new ager or other false teachings,
the errors of his thinking in his posts (several times)
and see if you can make any headway your way.....

I am happy to be the odd one out. I am in good company when I present my posts that others disagree with particularly with respect to the word.
 

John Caldwell

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2019
1,704
973
113
North Augusta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
1 Cor 15 is speaking about Adam bringing the second death upon all of mankind. We speak of the second death as being a spiritual death but the reality is that the second death is a complete separation of each of our spirits from God. It is not as such speaking of a spiritual death. That has been a man made construct and it is not in line with God's words on the subject.

Shalom
I disagree. The second death is a Christ-centered judgement. It is when Hades and death are cast into the lake of fire.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Joseph77

Joseph77

Well-Known Member
Apr 1, 2020
5,673
1,325
113
Tulsa, OK
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
As written, you went out from us, because you were not part of us....
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not belong ...
www . biblehub.com/1_john/2-19.htm
Verse 19. - They went out from us ἐξ ἡμῶν ἐξῆλθαν; just as the evil spirit went out of the demoniac (ἐξῆλθεν ἐξ αὐτοῦ, Mark 1:26).But they were not of us οὐκ η΅σαν ἐξ ἡμῶν; they had not their origin with us, just as the unbelieving Jews were "not of God" ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ οὐκ ἐστὲ, but of the devil (John 8:23, 44, 47).

1 JOHN 2:19 KJV "They went out from us, but they were not ...
www . kingjamesbibleonline.org/1-John-2-19/
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

I am happy to be the odd one out. I am in good company when I present my posts that others disagree with particularly with respect to the word.
 

Yan

Active Member
Jun 15, 2020
410
143
43
City of David
the-land-of-hope.blogspot.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Indonesia
I disagree. The second death is a Christ-centered judgement. It is when Hades and death are cast into the lake of fire.
If we as a Christ disciples are the rock which built into the foundation of the church (Matthew 16:18) and also Christ himself was the cornerstone who builders rejected (Acts of the Apostles 4:11-13), then the judgement will come upon those are intimidating and judging day and night of all His people (Revelation 12:7-12), and whosoever works with the sea of sinners (Revelation 20:11-15). As we know the sea of sinners where also the devil fish shark teeth Ifrit, and also the accuser are the one whosoever do the psychological warfare to His people. Because of the envy and the love of this world mankind persecute others only to fight money, and that will be the proof that no man is righteous before God; God will choose whosoever pleased him to enters heaven (Ecclesiastes 9).
 
Last edited:

Joseph77

Well-Known Member
Apr 1, 2020
5,673
1,325
113
Tulsa, OK
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If we as a Christ disciples are the rock which built into the foundation of the church
This has never been something God says concerning Christ disciples today.

Most who claim to be Christ's. , are frauds or are deceived (is that the same thing?) ...
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,523
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
I disagree. The second death is a Christ-centered judgement. It is when Hades and death are cast into the lake of fire.

John you are welcome to disagree with me, that is your choice. I do not have to live with your choice, but your understanding, in my humble opinion is flawed, it is as simple as that.

Shalom
 

John Caldwell

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2019
1,704
973
113
North Augusta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
John you are welcome to disagree with me, that is your choice. I do not have to live with your choice, but your understanding, in my humble opinion is flawed, it is as simple as that.

Shalom
Yes, I never advocate anyone adopt my understanding. I do not believe that is the value here.

What we need to do is ask our questions, explain our positions, argue our points - not to change the other but to reexamine our views and better understand each other's interpretation.
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'm impressed. I had to do a lot of research to discover this Truth. It's a shame the Church hides this from everyone.

On a similar note...

I believe the Cherubim and Flaming Sword are a foreshadowing of the Lake of Fire. Adam and Eve were forced to 'pass through the fire' which is reflected in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom...

Leviticus 18:21
"And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD"


Sound too far out?

Yes, way... too far out.

The flaming Cherubim in Genesis 3 represent God removing His Adobe off this earth where it once was, as shown in Genesis 2. Those Cherubim are guardians of the Tree of Life in God's Garden, which today is in another dimension of existence.

The passing through the fire to Molech idea is about pagan idolatry. The house of Judah fell into that form of Baal worship at one time (Jeremiah 19). That worship including sacrificing children in burning fire. So that definitely is NOT... in association with the Cherubim in Genesis 3.


Check this out...

Isaiah 29:2 (New International Version)
"Yet I will besiege Ariel; she will mourn and lament, she will be to me like an altar hearth"


Ariel means 'Lioness of God' or even 'Altar Hearth of God'. In other words, Ariel is the name for Jerusalem when acting as the Lake of Fire.

Some even connect the word Ariel to the Underworld...

Ariel

Note that the Hearth is also called Tophet...

Isaiah 30:33
"For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it"

....

Tophet was a place in the 'valley of Hinnom' where Baal pagans taught Judah to sacrifice their children in the fire. Again, see Jeremiah 19.

"Ariel" in Isaiah 29 is about the day of destruction by God's vengeance with His consuming fire. It is not the 'lake of fire' event which is to occur at the end of Christ's future 1,000 years reign per Rev.20. In the New Testament Gospel Books, the word "hell" (KJV) in the Greek has different meanings. One of them is 'geena' from the Hebrew about the valley of Hinnom. Our Lord Jesus used the valley of Hinnom as a symbol for the future lake of fire event. The reason why He uses that as a symbol for the lake of fire is because of how the Baal prophets taught the evil of child sacrifice to Judah, a work which God said never even came to His Mind. Because of that, symbolic Tophet is reserved for the devil and his, God turning that burning upon those who created it.

Jer 19:5-6
5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into My mind:

6 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that this place shall no more be called Tophet, nor The valley of the son of Hinnom, but The valley of slaughter.
KJV
 

Waiting on him

Well-Known Member
Dec 21, 2018
11,674
6,096
113
56
North America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'm impressed. I had to do a lot of research to discover this Truth. It's a shame the Church hides this from everyone.

On a similar note...

I believe the Cherubim and Flaming Sword are a foreshadowing of the Lake of Fire. Adam and Eve were forced to 'pass through the fire' which is reflected in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom...

Leviticus 18:21
"And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD"


Sound too far out?

Check this out...

Isaiah 29:2 (New International Version)
"Yet I will besiege Ariel; she will mourn and lament, she will be to me like an altar hearth"


Ariel means 'Lioness of God' or even 'Altar Hearth of God'. In other words, Ariel is the name for Jerusalem when acting as the Lake of Fire.

Some even connect the word Ariel to the Underworld...

Ariel

Note that the Hearth is also called Tophet...

Isaiah 30:33
"For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it"


Ariel, considered an Archangel by many, is sometimes referred to as Uriel...

Ariel (angel) - Wikipedia

And guess who Uriel is?

Uriel is the one who holds the Flaming Sword in Genesis!

"According to the Bible, a cherub (or, in some traditions, either the archangel Uriel or Camael) with a flaming sword was placed by God at the gates of Paradise after Adam and Eve were banished from it"

Flaming sword (mythology) - Wikipedia

Thus Adam and Eve had to 'pass through the fire' of Uriel, the Altar Hearth of God.
Matthew 10:34 KJV
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.


Luke 12:49 KJV
I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Base12

DPMartin

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2014
2,698
794
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
But that is not true. God did not tell Adam that he would die and Adam did not die. God told Adam that on the day he ate of the fruit death would be certain (on the day you eat of the fruit you will surely die).

It is only true if you rearrange the words and ignore the Hebrew.

how do you know that's not true? this isn't semantics the Lord is plain straight forward they ate did they not ? therefore they died.

and what Life did Adam die of "Adam, which was the son of God"


Luk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. 

you take 12 words out of context and say it means this or that, na, not buying pal. the day they eat they die then they ate therefore they die that day. but again


Gen 3:19  In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. 

which was not the case before they ate of the tree.



and it was a day like we experience now not some theological day of the Lord consept because it was the cool of the day, hence a condition of weather and time of day


Gen 3:8  And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. 
Gen 3:9  And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 
Gen 3:10  And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 
Gen 3:11  And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? 


so, your full of it.
 

Rocky Wiley

Active Member
Aug 28, 2012
929
156
43
83
Southeast USA
how do you know that's not true? this isn't semantics the Lord is plain straight forward they ate did they not ? therefore they died.

and what Life did Adam die of "Adam, which was the son of God"


Luk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. 

you take 12 words out of context and say it means this or that, na, not buying pal. the day they eat they die then they ate therefore they die that day. but again


Gen 3:19  In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. 

which was not the case before they ate of the tree.



and it was a day like we experience now not some theological day of the Lord consept because it was the cool of the day, hence a condition of weather and time of day


Gen 3:8  And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. 
Gen 3:9  And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 
Gen 3:10  And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 
Gen 3:11  And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? 


so, your full of it.
 

Rocky Wiley

Active Member
Aug 28, 2012
929
156
43
83
Southeast USA
2 Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
 

Base12

Well-Known Member
Dec 27, 2019
1,274
577
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
...I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

Speaking of Naked. I posted this a few days ago in another thread...

First of all, we must understand what the word 'naked' means. Never assume.

Let's let the Word of God teach us...

2 Corinthians 5:2-4
"For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven"

"If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked"

"For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life"


Adam and his Wife were 'naked' because they weren't clothed with a Tabernacle Body yet. That was the point of having the two Trees. Their Tabernacle Body would be determined by their choice of Fruit.

They chose an Earthly (corrupt) Tabernacle Body to be 'clothed' with.

Also...

Be sure and not make the mistake of assuming that the 'Skins' God clothed them with were animals skins...

Genesis 3:21
"Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them"


The above verse was the moment Adam and Eve received their Earthly Tabernacle Body. How do we know?

Again, let the Word of God teach us what the 'skins' were...

Job 10:11
"Thou hast clothed me with skin and flesh, and hast fenced me with bones and sinews"


There you go. Adam and Ishshah died and were re-created according to the Law.

The opposite would be this...

Hebrews 7:16
"Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life"


Adam and Ishshah chose the wrong Mom...

full
 

Base12

Well-Known Member
Dec 27, 2019
1,274
577
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Isn't it funny how the Word of God goes out of its way to teach that there wasn't just one Adam made?

1 Corinthians 15:45
"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit"


full
 

John Caldwell

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2019
1,704
973
113
North Augusta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
how do you know that's not true? this isn't semantics the Lord is plain straight forward they ate did they not ? therefore they died.

and what Life did Adam die of "Adam, which was the son of God"


Luk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. 

you take 12 words out of context and say it means this or that, na, not buying pal. the day they eat they die then they ate therefore they die that day. but again


Gen 3:19  In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. 

which was not the case before they ate of the tree.



and it was a day like we experience now not some theological day of the Lord consept because it was the cool of the day, hence a condition of weather and time of day


Gen 3:8  And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. 
Gen 3:9  And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 
Gen 3:10  And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 
Gen 3:11  And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? 


so, your full of it.
I know it is not true be a use it is not on the Bible. The Bible not only tells us what God said to Adam but the Bible tells us what happened afterwards.

Since your myth is not in the Bible we can be pretty sure it is wrong. I do not think this is something God would have just left out.