Trump using the Bible as a prop...

[amadeus]

I thought it was a defective bill when it first passed. Parts of it got struck down in court.

Has any American ever been prosecuted for terrorism as a result of the spying parts of this law? If so, I haven't heard about it. I think there have been wiretaps done using this law that were used to prosecute other things like drug running, immigration abuses, etc., but no terrorists.

What amazes me is that Trump seemed so offended that someone in his campaign was being spied on but he never called for the law to be changed. In fact, he wanted the wiretap provisions extended. Has this law expired? It was supposed to be temporary. I thought Congress and Trump couldn't agree on things. . . .

Patriot Act - Wikipedia

The Trump administration delivered a letter to Congress in August 2019 urging them to make permanent three surveillance provisions of the Patriot Act. The provisions included section 215, which enables domestic call-record collection as well as the collection of other types of business records.

In November 2019, the House approved a three-month extension of the Patriot Act which would have expired on December 15, 2019. It was included as part of a bigger stop-gap spending bill aimed at preventing government shutdown which was approved by a vote of 231–192. The vote was mostly along party lines with Democrats voting in favor and Republicans voting against. Republican opposition was largely due to the bill's failure to include $5 billion for border security. Ten Democrats voted against the bill. This group included a number of progressive Democrats who urged their colleagues to oppose the bill over the measure to extend surveillance. Representative Justin Amash (Independent) submitted an amendment to remove the Patriot Act provisions, but it was defeated by the House Rules committee.

On March 10, 2020, Jerry Nadler proposed a bill to reauthorize the Patriot Act, and it was then approved the majority of US House of Representatives after 152 Democrats joined the GOP in supporting the extension. The surveillance powers of the Patriot Act needed renewal by March 15, 2020, and after it expired, the U.S. Senate approved an amended version of the bill. After President Donald Trump threatened to veto the bill, the House of Representatives issued an indefinite postponement of the vote to pass the Senate version of the bill; as of June 2020, the Patriot Act remains expired.

It is odd isn't it how when Trump became President, suddenly he liked the idea of spying on other people. He just didn't like it when the FBI was spying on Manafort.

As I said I have not been keeping up on court cases and new laws in this regard, but it was to me believable [not unbelievable, but I had already learned not to trust people] when I first read about the Patriot Act, because it confirmed that few people really cared about the rights of anyone not in one of their groups [including church groups], until it hit them in their own lives and their own homes... and, yes, in their own churches. They, in their fear of Islam, thought the Patriot Act was a good thing, never mind the way it was eroding or destroying basic rights some people really did or would have died for...

Many Christians [bearing that label anyway] really do not trust God. They trust their political parties and their favorite politicians, the ones that is who are supporting their interests. They have also formed boundaries in their churches which resemble little the message that Jesus taught according to the written gospels. Their interests are too often 'my money in my pocket' centered. People have hope for this nation, but I don't have much for it any more. The ones with power, even though claiming to be on God's side, really have no idea who He is... and too often really do not care...

My wife and I have always voted in national elections, but I believe I have talked her out of voting this time. Who is the least worst this time around? Jesus as a write candidate would not be allowed... even if it would do any good!

 

[BreadOfLife]

You're not entirely correct there, BreadOfLife. If Christ's message is that "many are called but few are chosen" and that "the way is narrow and few find it", that means that the supposed Judeo-Christian principles that you speak of, especially its moral principles, are going to be rejected by the many. That America can be, somehow, a de facto Christian nation because of foundational principles is a false supposition. Jesus is simply calling individuals, not nations. He's calling the few and warns that the way is narrow. We are not of this world. He doesn't call us to erect kingdoms and nations in his name.

I request that you be more attentive of Scripture.



Not if he is an anti-christ. I don't accept the Trump prophecies from Mark Taylor, Lance Wallnau, etc. For me, I accept Christ Jesus as a sufficient Lord and Savior and do not need any other so-called "anointed" leaders.



I agree.



I agree that God can use whomever he desires to do his will, but Christians are to worship "in Spirit and in Truth". We are not going to be able to worship God by following someone whose conversation invariably betokens deceit, who undermines our walk "in Spirit and in Truth".

For me again, Christ Jesus is Savior and Lord. We do not need any other "anointed" leaders.

And I suggest that YOU be more attentive to Scripture (Matt. 22:21, Rom. 13:1) - instead of exaggerating . . .

To refer to President Trump as “Anti-Christ” is not only mellow-dramatic – it’s ludicrous and without merit.

I never stated that President Trump was some kind of “prophet” or that he is “anointed” by God.
I DO believe that God is using him to do his will, however. He is THE most Prolife President in history and has argued more on behalf of religious liberty than any President that I can remember. His policies have also lifted more people out of poverty and off of food stamps than any other president.

This isn’t about President Trump being an “anointed prophet” – it’s about him being used as an instrument.

 

[Joseph77]

Jesus as a write candidate would not be allowed... even if it would do any good!

Jesus never claimed to be "of this world", rather set apart, holy, and His Kingdom is NOT of this world. His followers likewise.

 

[bukka]

And I suggest that YOU be more attentive to Scripture (Matt. 22:21, Rom. 13:1) - instead of exaggerating . . .

I've not exaggerated at all, BreadOfLife. I didn't say that "many are called and few are chosen" and "the way is narrow and few find it". Jesus said these things. You were ignoring the meaning of these things in your assertion of America being founded on Christian principles, when in fact that is immaterial to the many, the many will reject the Christian message.

To refer to President Trump as “Anti-Christ” is not only mellow-dramatic – it’s ludicrous and without merit.

I never stated that President Trump was some kind of “prophet” or that he is “anointed” by God.

Then you've been mighty silent about it. Why haven't you spoken out against the Trump prophecies until this very moment? You have been, as far as I can tell looking at Christianity Board, a silent fellow traveler in the belief of these prophecies. You should have been speaking out against them months, or even years ago. Don't blame me if I've drawn that conclusion. If you've looked at those prophecies, I'm not being melodramatic about how many people believe that Trump is some kind of an "anointed" Cyrus. I would agree that these beliefs are ludicrous.

I DO believe that God is using him to do his will, however. He is THE most Prolife President in history and has argued more on behalf of religious liberty than any President that I can remember.

An anti-christ, by definition, can never be pro-God and pro-liberty. An anti-christ always, at some point, going to betray the religious followers that have been gulled by him. I see that you've yet to be disappointed in him. Be warned.

His policies have also lifted more people out of poverty and off of food stamps than any other president.

It could also be said his failure of leadership and the mishandling of the COVID-19 epidemic will have ruined the American economy. Whereas most of the world will have the epidemic under control, we'll still be suffering for it, and the poverty will be rampant.

This isn’t about President Trump being an “anointed prophet” – it’s about him being used as an instrument.

Trump is being used as an instrument, but an instrument for whom? Why didn't Trump contradict and call the Trump prophecies false. It's because he wants people, gullible enough to believe in them, to accept him as an "anointed leader" by God. This is something I can't accept. For me, only Jesus is the Christ, and is to be venerated as Lord and Savior.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I've not exaggerated at all, BreadOfLife. I didn't say that "many are called and few are chosen" and "the way is narrow and few find it". Jesus said these things. You were ignoring the meaning of these things in your assertion of America being founded on Christian principles, when in fact that is immaterial to the many, the many will reject the Christian message.

Then you've been mighty silent about it. Why haven't you spoken out against the Trump prophecies until this very moment? You have been, as far as I can tell looking at Christianity Board, a silent fellow traveler in the belief of these prophecies. You should have been speaking out against them months, or even years ago. Don't blame me if I've drawn that conclusion. If you've looked at those prophecies, I'm not being melodramatic about how many people believe that Trump is some kind of an "anointed" Cyrus. I would agree that these beliefs are ludicrous.

I don’t engage in conversation about “Trump prophecies” because it’s nonsense – not because I’m walking around in some sort of “fog”.

As for the U.S. being founded on Christian principles – I simply reminded you of that because you were stating that it was never a “Christian nation” – which is a claim I have NOT made.

An anti-christ, by definition, can never be pro-God and pro-liberty. An anti-christ always, at some point, going to betray the religious followers that have been gulled by him. I see that you've yet to be disappointed in him. Be warned.

This kind of moronic statement has no basis in reality.
It’s just YOU trying to sound important . . .

It could also be said his failure of leadership and the mishandling of the COVID-19 epidemic will have ruined the American economy. Whereas most of the world will have the epidemic under control, we'll still be suffering for it, and the poverty will be rampant.

No – what has ruined the American economy are the leftist Governors who have shut down their states.

If anything – the President has been trying to open them up again – but if you knew your Constitution, you would know that it is a matter of State’s rights. The President’s hands are tied to a certain extent – and THAT is what is ruining the economy.

Do your homework . . .

Trump is being used as an instrument, but an instrument for whom? Why didn't Trump contradict and call the Trump prophecies false. It's because he wants people, gullible enough to believe in them, to accept him as an "anointed leader" by God. This is something I can't accept. For me, only Jesus is the Christ, and is to be venerated as Lord and Savior.

Probably because he has BIGGER fish to fry that your obsession with the nonsense that is the “Trump prophecies”.

And Jesus Christ is not to be merely “venerated”.
He is GOD and is to be WORSHIPPED . . .

 

[bukka]

I don’t engage in conversation about “Trump prophecies” because it’s nonsense – not because I’m walking around in some sort of “fog”.

I agree, BreadOfLife, that you're not walking around in a fog. But you've still failed to speak out against the Trump prophecies until yesterday. You still appear to me, as far as I can tell by looking at Christianity Board, a silent fellow traveler in the belief of these prophecies. Maybe you've been timid about speaking out against them. Maybe you didn't want to disturb the passions of your Alt Right brethren in respect to your beloved anti-christ, Trump, that both you and your Alt Right friends worship. As I've previously said, you should have been speaking out against the Trump prophecies months, or even years ago.

Don't blame me if I've drawn the conclusion that you have sympathy for the Trump prophecies. I would agree that the Trump prophecies are ludicrous.

As for the U.S. being founded on Christian principles – I simply reminded you of that because you were stating that it was never a “Christian nation” – which is a claim I have NOT made.

That's not what I said in post #378. I said,

"If Christ's message is that "many are called but few are chosen" and that "the way is narrow and few find it", that means that the supposed Judeo-Christian principles that you speak of, especially its moral principles, are going to be rejected by the many. That America can be, somehow, a de facto Christian nation because of foundational principles is a false supposition. Jesus is simply calling individuals, not nations. He's calling the few and warns that the way is narrow. We are not of this world. He doesn't call us to erect kingdoms and nations in his name.

I request that you be more attentive of Scripture."

bukka said:
An anti-christ, by definition, can never be pro-God and pro-liberty. An anti-christ always, at some point, going to betray the religious followers that have been gulled by him. I see that you've yet to be disappointed in him. Be warned.

This kind of moronic statement has no basis in reality.
It’s just YOU trying to sound important . . .

This is merely an ad hominem to my friendly warning about supporting an anti-christ. Ad hominems are not to be dignified with a response. I know that you venerate Trump, but for many of your fellow American citizens, we do not share in your worship.

bukka said:
It could also be said his failure of leadership and the mishandling of the COVID-19 epidemic will have ruined the American economy. Whereas most of the world will have the epidemic under control, we'll still be suffering for it, and the poverty will be rampant.

No – what has ruined the American economy are the leftist Governors who have shut down their states.

How then do you explain that in other parts of the world, the epidemic has gone down and life has largely returned to normal? This is because the epidemic was seen in those countries as a national emergency calling for a national response. Trump failed to use the discretionary powers that he already possessed to deal with national pandemic emergencies and biological attacks. Trump failed to exercise leadership and passed the responsibility to the states, in effect, creating the ineffective 50-state response that we currently see concerning the epidemic. That is why we see the monumental numbers of infections and deaths, many of which have been unnecessary.

You also got the shutdown wrong, which includes both Democratic and Republican governors. Many states, under political pressure from the Trump White House prematurely opened up their states too soon causing an increase in the epidemic causing them to be shut down again. The red state of Texas is a prime example of this. It opened too soon and was hit hard by the epidemic. This mistake by the Republican governor is probably going to turn that state into a blue state in the fall, and probably beyond.

If anything – the President has been trying to open them up again – but if you knew your Constitution, you would know that it is a matter of State’s rights. The President’s hands are tied to a certain extent – and THAT is what is ruining the economy.

Do your homework . . .

State's rights are irrelevant in a national emergency involving a pandemic. The President has full authority to deal with a pandemic as well as biological attacks. You're simply wrong on this. I would advise you to do that homework.

bukka said
Trump is being used as an instrument, but an instrument for whom? Why didn't Trump contradict and call the Trump prophecies false. It's because he wants people, gullible enough to believe in them, to accept him as an "anointed leader" by God. This is something I can't accept. For me, only Jesus is the Christ, and is to be venerated as Lord and Savior.

Probably because he has BIGGER fish to fry that your obsession with the nonsense that is the “Trump prophecies”.

Trump hates fish, I understand. He's a meat and potatoes kind of fellow.

The Trump prophecies nonsense are all very weighty matters. It's not an obsession. It's merely a concern for a basic understanding of correct worship and doctrine.

Trump, because of the Trump prophecies, is worshiped by many of you Alt Right folks as another "christ", an "anti-christ". This is all very bad, very damaging to the church. I'm finding myself in the position, as with many others, of having to clean up after all of the fetid nonsense the Alt Right has brought into the church.

Think of myself as being engaged in the task, that of taking out the garbage connected to the belief of Trump as an anti-christ, and that anti-christs, in general, are somehow good. I'm seeking to do what others failed to do years ago. Would you be interested in helping me with this task?

And Jesus Christ is not to be merely “venerated”.
He is GOD and is to be WORSHIPPED . . .

That strange statement must originate in some Scholastic definition. It fails on one major point: can you have worship without some form of veneration as well? Think on it a bit, good fellow.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I agree, BreadOfLife, that you're not walking around in a fog. But you've still failed to speak out against the Trump prophecies until yesterday. You still appear to me, as far as I can tell by looking at Christianity Board, a silent fellow traveler in the belief of these prophecies. Maybe you've been timid about speaking out against them. Maybe you didn't want to disturb the passions of your Alt Right brethren in respect to your beloved anti-christ, Trump, that both you and your Alt Right friends worship. As I've previously said, you should have been speaking out against the Trump prophecies months, or even years ago.

Don't blame me if I've drawn the conclusion that you have sympathy for the Trump prophecies. I would agree that the Trump prophecies are ludicrous.

That's not what I said in post #378. I said,

"If Christ's message is that , etc. . . .

I couldn’t care less what conclusions you’ve “drawn” about me.
I told you plainly that I don’t hold ANY stock in those so-called “prophecies” – so your repeated insistence that I do is just another lie.

Once again, I never stated that America is a “de facto Christian nation” because it was built on Christian principles. You are adding to what I said because you’re desperately losing this argument . . .

This is merely an ad hominem to my friendly warning about supporting an anti-christ. Ad hominems are not to be dignified with a response. I know that you venerate Trump, but for many of your fellow American citizens, we do not share in your worship.

And I neither venerate nor worship the President.
I support his policies because:

- They are putting more people to work than at ANY other time in American history.
- They have put more Black, Latino and Asian Americans to work than at ANY other time in American history.
- He has done more for the poor than almost any President in history and has pulled MILLIONS off of food stamps – a program that the Obama Administration was actively recruiting people for.
- He has spoken out against the abomination of abortion than ANY other president in American history.
- He has spoken out in favor of religious freedom more than the last 5 Presidents combined.
- He passed historic Tax cuts – and the list goes on . . .

How then do you explain that in other parts of the world, the epidemic has gone down and life has largely returned to normal? This is because the epidemic was seen in those countries as a national emergency calling for a national response. Trump failed to use the discretionary powers that he already possessed to deal with national pandemic emergencies and biological attacks. Trump failed to exercise leadership and passed the responsibility to the states, in effect, creating the ineffective 50-state response that we currently see concerning the epidemic. That is why we see the monumental numbers of infections and deaths, many of which have been unnecessary.

You also got the shutdown wrong, which includes both Democratic and Republican governors. Many states, under political pressure from the Trump White House prematurely opened up their states too soon causing an increase in the epidemic causing them to be shut down again. The red state of Texas is a prime example of this. It opened too soon and was hit hard by the epidemic. This mistake by the Republican governor is probably going to turn that state into a blue state in the fall, and probably beyond.

State's rights are irrelevant in a national emergency involving a pandemic. The President has full authority to deal with a pandemic as well as biological attacks. You're simply wrong on this. I would advise you to do that homework.

This is perhaps your MOST ignorant claim.

The reason we have more cases of Covid infection is because – wait for it . . . WE TEST MORE THAN ANYBODY ELSE – by far.

As for the shutdowns – this has been largely a matter of STATE’S RIGHTS – and NOT a Federal mandate – so the President is not directly responsible for the economy coming to a grinding halt. He has been doing everything in his power to get it back up and running – and is BEATING all of the economist’s estimates about how long it will take.

Good grief – do your HOMEWORK . . .

That strange statement must originate in some Scholastic definition. It fails on one major point: can you have worship without some form of veneration as well? Think on it a bit, good fellow.

Ummmmm, that’s why I said He is not to be “merely” venerated, Einstein.
He’s GOD and is to be worshipped – not just venerated . . .

 

[bukka]

I couldn’t care less what conclusions you’ve “drawn” about me.
I told you plainly that I don’t hold ANY stock in those so-called “prophecies” – so your repeated insistence that I do is just another lie.

I never said that you didn't take any stock in the Trump prophecies, BreadOfLife, but I did state that your silence in respect to them indicated your silent acceptance of them. If you disagreed with them, it was your spiritual and moral duty to speak out against them, since these prophecies have been proclaimed for years. This you didn't do.

As a Roman Catholic, I'm sure you're aware of Silentium consensu importat, that silence imples consent. Within your church, the Nine Ways to be an accessory to Sin are: By counsel, By command, By consent, By provocation, By praise or flattery, By concealment, By partaking, By silence, and By the defense of the evil done. Your being an accessory to the sin, involving the Trump prophecies, and anti-christ, is your silence in respect to them. You had needed to speak out. You didn't do so. You became an accessory to sin.

This is plain, traditional Catholic teaching.

The reason I'm persisting in this is that you've been loudly, belligerently expressing your views supposedly in defense of Catholicism. I'm surprised, at this moment of truth, you're demonstrating an ignorance of basic Catholic teaching.

Once again, I never stated that America is a “de facto Christian nation” because it was built on Christian principles. You are adding to what I said because you’re desperately losing this argument . . .

Don't falsify what's been said between us.

Speaking of America, you originally said "it was founded on Judeo-Christian principles - and that is an inescapable, historical fact". You didn't say "de facto Christian nation". I said that.

I replied that Christ's message is that "many are called but few are chosen" and that "the way is narrow and few find it", that means that the supposed Judeo-Christian principles that you speak of, especially its moral principles, are going to be rejected by the many. That America can be, somehow, a de facto Christian nation because of foundational principles is a false supposition. Jesus is simply calling individuals, not nations. He's calling the few and warns that the way is narrow. We are not of this world. He doesn't call us to erect kingdoms and nations in his name.

In this statement, you lost the argument. It's too difficult to contest what I had written.

And I neither venerate nor worship the President.
I support his policies because:

- They are putting more people to work than at ANY other time in American history.
- They have put more Black, Latino and Asian Americans to work than at ANY other time in American history.
- He has done more for the poor than almost any President in history and has pulled MILLIONS off of food stamps – a program that the Obama Administration was actively recruiting people for.
- He has spoken out against the abomination of abortion than ANY other president in American history.
- He has spoken out in favor of religious freedom more than the last 5 Presidents combined.
- He passed historic Tax cuts – and the list goes on . . .

These are many claims but they've been controverted too much in too many places for me to be readily believed. What are your arguments in support for each of them, given you are making these claims?

This is perhaps your MOST ignorant claim.

This is more ad hominem which is unworthy of you.

The reason we have more cases of Covid infection is because – wait for it . . . WE TEST MORE THAN ANYBODY ELSE – by far.

That does not follow. Your statement is illogical. Just because we have tests doesn't mean that we have more infections. Tests merely indicate an infection exists in someone or in a population. We have more infections because those infections exist. The tests and the infections indicates is that we're failing to properly limit the spread of the infections by proper sanitary procedures.

As for the shutdowns – this has been largely a matter of STATE’S RIGHTS – and NOT a Federal mandate – so the President is not directly responsible for the economy coming to a grinding halt. He has been doing everything in his power to get it back up and running – and is BEATING all of the economist’s estimates about how long it will take.

A national emergency calls for a national response. As I've said before, how then do you explain that in other parts of the world, the epidemic has gone down and life has largely returned to normal? This is because the epidemic was seen in those countries as a national emergency calling for a national response. Trump failed to use the discretionary powers that he already possessed to deal with national pandemic emergencies and biological attacks.

Trump failed to exercise leadership and passed the responsibility to the states, in effect, creating the ineffective 50-state response that we currently see concerning the epidemic. That is why we see the monumental numbers of infections and deaths, many of which have been unnecessary. The national recovery appears to have been turned over to the states as well, and Trump is failing to give the recovery a national direction and stated goals. This shows Trump as a monumental failure as a leader.

Good grief – do your HOMEWORK . . .

I think I am. I think you should review again the Nine Ways of being an accessory to sin.

Ummmmm, that’s why I said He is not to be “merely” venerated, Einstein.
He’s GOD and is to be worshipped – not just venerated . . .

Are you claiming veneration and worship are not synonyms? That seems very questionable. I suspect that it's some sort of scholastic distinction that you haven't informed me yet.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I never said that you didn't take any stock in the Trump prophecies, BreadOfLife, but I did state that your silence in respect to them indicated your silent acceptance of them. If you disagreed with them, it was your spiritual and moral duty to speak out against them, since these prophecies have been proclaimed for years. This you didn't do.

As a Roman Catholic, I'm sure you're aware of Silentium consensu importat, that silence imples consent. Within your church, the Nine Ways to be an accessory to Sin are: By counsel, By command, By consent, By provocation, By praise or flattery, By concealment, By partaking, By silence, and By the defense of the evil done. Your being an accessory to the sin, involving the Trump prophecies, and anti-christ, is your silence in respect to them. You had needed to speak out. You didn't do so. You became an accessory to sin.

This is plain, traditional Catholic teaching.

The reason I'm persisting in this is that you've been loudly, belligerently expressing your views supposedly in defense of Catholicism. I'm surprised, at this moment of truth, you're demonstrating an ignorance of basic Catholic teaching.

ALL of the above is just more of your desperate nonsense because it implies that I'm supposed to rad EVERY thread on this forum.
Nobody does that - and if they do - they have WAAAAAYYY too much time on their hands. I respond to the threads that I see when perusing the topics - and I don't hit ALL of them. I work for a living.

There is NO Catholic teaching that requires me to read every thread on ANY forum.
Nice try . . .

Don't falsify what's been said between us.

Speaking of America, you originally said "it was founded on Judeo-Christian principles - and that is an inescapable, historical fact". You didn't say "de facto Christian nation". I said that.

I replied that Christ's message is that "many are called but few are chosen" and that "the way is narrow and few find it", that means that the supposed Judeo-Christian principles that you speak of, especially its moral principles, are going to be rejected by the many. That America can be, somehow, a de facto Christian nation because of foundational principles is a false supposition. Jesus is simply calling individuals, not nations. He's calling the few and warns that the way is narrow. We are not of this world. He doesn't call us to erect kingdoms and nations in his name.

In this statement, you lost the argument. It's too difficult to contest what I had written.

WRONG.

The only reason I made the statement about America being founded on Christian values was to counter YOUR point that that it's laws were devoid of Christian inspiration.

Talk about "falsfying" the conversation . . .

These are many claims but they've been controverted too much in too many places for me to be readily believed. What are your arguments in support for each of them, given you are making these claims?

This is more ad hominem which is unworthy of you.

That does not follow. Your statement is illogical. Just because we have tests doesn't mean that we have more infections. Tests merely indicate an infection exists in someone or in a population. We have more infections because those infections exist. The tests and the infections indicates is that we're failing to properly limit the spread of the infections by proper sanitary procedures.

Try to understand:

We have about 330 MILLION people in the U.S. Not ONE European country even comes close.
When we are testing MILLIONS more that each one of those countries - we are BOUND to discover more infections. A LARGE percentage of those diagnosed, by the way are ASYMPTOMATIC. You could have millions of people in Europe with asymptomatic Covid and NOT know it if they aren't being tested in the same ratios.

Didn't you ever take a MATH class??

A national emergency calls for a national response. As I've said before, how then do you explain that in other parts of the world, the epidemic has gone down and life has largely returned to normal? This is because the epidemic was seen in those countries as a national emergency calling for a national response. Trump failed to use the discretionary powers that he already possessed to deal with national pandemic emergencies and biological attacks.

Trump failed to exercise leadership and passed the responsibility to the states, in effect, creating the ineffective 50-state response that we currently see concerning the epidemic. That is why we see the monumental numbers of infections and deaths, many of which have been unnecessary. The national recovery appears to have been turned over to the states as well, and Trump is failing to give the recovery a national direction and stated goals. This shows Trump as a monumental failure as a leader.

Your ignorance of the Constitution is what is at play here.
The President's hands are TIED.

Did you ever read about a little skirmish called the Civil War?? It was ALL about State's Rights - and the fact that the Federal government is NOT a monarchy. The President is trying to convince the individual states to comply - but they have certain rights over their OWN States.

Did you fail CIVICS as well??

Are you claiming veneration and worship are not synonyms? That seems very questionable. I suspect that it's some sort of scholastic distinction that you haven't informed me yet.

No - they're not exact synonyms.

You can venerate a sports figure - but he is NOT to be worshipped.
Learn the difference . . .

 

[bukka]

ALL of the above is just more of your desperate nonsense because it implies that I'm supposed to rad EVERY thread on this forum.
Nobody does that - and if they do - they have WAAAAAYYY too much time on their hands. I respond to the threads that I see when perusing the topics - and I don't hit ALL of them. I work for a living.

There is NO Catholic teaching that requires me to read every thread on ANY forum.
Nice try . . .

These are the usual, twisting excuses of a man caught in his sin. The Trump prophecies have existed for years. You should have spoken out against them. Yet you persisted in silence, one of the Nine Ways of being an accessory to sin.

When Trump was in the early months of his Presidency, Trump, himself, should have came out and condemned these prophecies, saying that he was, in no way, "anointed" by God. He failed to do so. This meant, in effect, that Trump consented to them, hoping that gullible people would fall for them and support him as a leader. Technically, this made him an anti-christ, one of the many fetid anti-christs that have come down through the centuries who've claimed divine sanctions to rule and to compel obedience. One thing that we do know about Trump is his concerns for wealth, power and obedience.

At this point many Christians should have condemned him and withdrawn their support. For Catholics, given their moral teaching, it was mandatory to do so. Yet for many it was not done.

Protestants, unlike Catholics, have an excuse. Their theologies are varied and their morals are varied, and so there is more of the subjectivity of religious experience that may grant them what to do based upon the spiritual leadings they may be having and the many doctrines that they profess. I understand that you don't like this subjectivity. This is why I'm not making a fuss about it concerning Protestants on Christianity Board. I, also, don't fault the moderators that are working here who must be impartial. For Catholics, though, this is different.

I'm a Protestant by the way.

You have represented yourself here on Christianity Board as a traditional Catholic, and have loudly and belligerently defended that faith. This means that you know, or should know more than many others, that moral and spiritual theology. This means that you should have not remained silent about it. You should have condemned the Trump prophecies.

I ask for your assistance in the condemnation of the Trump prophecies and the false reverence that is being given to the anti-christ, Trump. I ask you to affirm basic Catholic moral teaching.

WRONG.

The only reason I made the statement about America being founded on Christian values was to counter YOUR point that that it's laws were devoid of Christian inspiration.

Talk about "falsfying" the conversation . . .

I never stated that American laws were devoid of Christian inspiration. If you think I did, please give me the post number in this thread that I had stated that to you.

I ask that you not falsify our conversation.

Try to understand:

We have about 330 MILLION people in the U.S. Not ONE European country even comes close.

This is an error of false equivalence. It is not a matter of population, per se. Rather, what is the ratio of the numbers of infections per capita.

When we are testing MILLIONS more that each one of those countries - we are BOUND to discover more infections.

That can be granted. Possibly we may discover more infections. But is it relevant? Are we doing the same amount of testing per capita as is being done in Europe? Easily, we can answer no. Nationally, we're dealing poorly with the virus and the figures show it.

A LARGE percentage of those diagnosed, by the way are ASYMPTOMATIC. You could have millions of people in Europe with asymptomatic Covid and NOT know it if they aren't being tested in the same ratios.

This is speculation, not argument.

Didn't you ever take a MATH class??

Yes, I've taken a math class.

Your ignorance of the Constitution is what is at play here.

These ad hominem statements are unworthy of you.

The President's hands are TIED.

No they are not. As I've said before, Trump failed to use the discretionary powers that he already possesses to deal with national pandemic emergencies and biological attacks. Trump can defend the national interest in his authority as Commander-In-Chief.

Did you ever read about a little skirmish called the Civil War?? It was ALL about State's Rights - and the fact that the Federal government is NOT a monarchy.

No one says that the American Presidency is a monarchy.

The Civil War was a dispute not about states's right, but about slavery. This is easily seen in the ordinances of secession by the Southern states.

For example, in the Mississippi ordinance we read:

In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

You shouldn't accept the Lost Cause mythology. As a Catholic, you should consider it morally suspect.

The President is trying to convince the individual states to comply - but they have certain rights over their OWN States.

States have certain rights, but they're irrelevant in a national emergency regarding a pandemic. As I've said before, the President refused to exercise his leadership and authority to deal with a national crisis. Trump failed to exercise leadership and passed the responsibility to the states, in effect, creating the ineffective 50-state response that we currently see concerning the epidemic. That is why we see the monumental numbers of infections and deaths, many of which have been unnecessary. The national recovery appears to have been turned over to the states as well, and Trump is failing to give the recovery a national direction and stated goals. This shows Trump as a monumental failure as a leader. He should have declared it a national emergency and dealt with it with his authority to deal with pandemic emergencies and biological attacks.

Did you fail CIVICS as well??

This is another ad hominem attack that is unworthy of you.

No - they're not exact synonyms.

You can venerate a sports figure - but he is NOT to be worshipped.
Learn the difference . . .

What do you mean by "exact" synonym. A synonym is merely a word that can be substituted by another word in a given language given its grammatical usage. Just check an online dictionary to confirm this.

Veneration and worship are synonyms, unless you have some Scholastic definition that you're attaching to these words. If so, please explain.

 

[BreadOfLife]

These are the usual, twisting excuses of a man caught in his sin. The Trump prophecies have existed for years. You should have spoken out against them. Yet you persisted in silence, one of the Nine Ways of being an accessory to sin.

When Trump was in the early months of his Presidency, Trump, himself, should have came out and condemned these prophecies, saying that he was, in no way, "anointed" by God. He failed to do so. This meant, in effect, that Trump consented to them, hoping that gullible people would fall for them and support him as a leader. Technically, this made him an anti-christ, one of the many fetid anti-christs that have come down through the centuries who've claimed divine sanctions to rule and to compel obedience. One thing that we do know about Trump is his concerns for wealth, power and obedience.

At this point many Christians should have condemned him and withdrawn their support. For Catholics, given their moral teaching, it was mandatory to do so. Yet for many it was not done.

Protestants, unlike Catholics, have an excuse. Their theologies are varied and their morals are varied, and so there is more of the subjectivity of religious experience that may grant them what to do based upon the spiritual leadings they may be having and the many doctrines that they profess. I understand that you don't like this subjectivity. This is why I'm not making a fuss about it concerning Protestants on Christianity Board. I, also, don't fault the moderators that are working here who must be impartial. For Catholics, though, this is different.

I'm a Protestant by the way.

You have represented yourself here on Christianity Board as a traditional Catholic, and have loudly and belligerently defended that faith. This means that you know, or should know more than many others, that moral and spiritual theology. This means that you should have not remained silent about it. You should have condemned the Trump prophecies.

I ask for your assistance in the condemnation of the Trump prophecies and the false reverence that is being given to the anti-christ, Trump. I ask you to affirm basic Catholic moral teaching.

I never stated that American laws were devoid of Christian inspiration. If you think I did, please give me the post number in this thread that I had stated that to you.

I ask that you not falsify our conversation.

This is an error of false equivalence. It is not a matter of population, per se. Rather, what is the ratio of the numbers of infections per capita.

That can be granted. Possibly we may discover more infections. But is it relevant? Are we doing the same amount of testing per capita as is being done in Europe? Easily, we can answer no. Nationally, we're dealing poorly with the virus and the figures show it.

This is speculation, not argument.

Yes, I've taken a math class.

These ad hominem statements are unworthy of you.

No they are not. As I've said before, Trump failed to use the discretionary powers that he already possesses to deal with national pandemic emergencies and biological attacks. Trump can defend the national interest in his authority as Commander-In-Chief.

No one says that the American Presidency is a monarchy.

The Civil War was a dispute not about states's right, but about slavery. This is easily seen in the ordinances of secession by the Southern states.

For example, in the Mississippi ordinance we read:

In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

You shouldn't accept the Lost Cause mythology. As a Catholic, you should consider it morally suspect.

States have certain rights, but they're irrelevant in a national emergency regarding a pandemic. As I've said before, the President refused to exercise his leadership and authority to deal with a national crisis. Trump failed to exercise leadership and passed the responsibility to the states, in effect, creating the ineffective 50-state response that we currently see concerning the epidemic. That is why we see the monumental numbers of infections and deaths, many of which have been unnecessary. The national recovery appears to have been turned over to the states as well, and Trump is failing to give the recovery a national direction and stated goals. This shows Trump as a monumental failure as a leader. He should have declared it a national emergency and dealt with it with his authority to deal with pandemic emergencies and biological attacks.

This is another ad hominem attack that is unworthy of you.

What do you mean by "exact" synonym. A synonym is merely a word that can be substituted by another word in a given language given its grammatical usage. Just check an online dictionary to confirm this.

Veneration and worship are synonyms, unless you have some Scholastic definition that you're attaching to these words. If so, please explain.

Sorry – but your arguments are asinine and based on your opinions and very little fact.

I’m not any “less” of a Catholic because I haven’t jumped into the so-called “Trump prophecy” conversation. And the President isn’t “anti-Christ” simply because he hasn’t condemned every untrue thing said about him.

You have a very poor and immature understanding of the Catholic teaching on sinning by commission and omission. Sin is ALL about intent – and you cannot sin without intent.

As for the civil War – STUDY YOUR HISTORY.
It was about FAR more than slavery – although slavery was the main topic. It WAS about state’s rights – but that is neither here nor there. Mississippi was ONE state and died not relresent ALL of the grievances of every other Southern statebesides, my point is that the President is doing ALL he can to bring the country back to normal – but is being fought all the way by each individual state. READ your Constitution.

Your ideas about States losing their rights during a pandemic are NOT based in any kind of fact – but solely on your own opinion.

This is why I keep telling you to do your HOMEWORK before you post.

Finally – regarding your misuse of the word “veneration” – it is NOT the same thing as “worship”:

Venerate definition:
verb
1. regard with great respect; revere.
"Mother Teresa is venerated as a saint"

Worship definition:
noun
1. the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.
"the worship of God"

Veneration is not “worship” so much as it is adulation and respect.
That’s why – for the THIRD time – I said that we don’t just venerate Christ – we WORSHIP Him.

Just admit that you used the wrong word and move on . . .

 

[bukka]

Sorry – but your arguments are asinine and based on your opinions and very little fact.

This is ad hominem and is unworthy of you.

I’m not any “less” of a Catholic because I haven’t jumped into the so-called “Trump prophecy” conversation.

You are not "less" or "more" of a Catholic. Either you are a Catholic or you are not. It's that you've failed to condemn the Trump prophecies as you are required to do by your church's teaching. You persisted in your silence, one of the Nine Ways of being an accessory to sin.

And the President isn’t “anti-Christ” simply because he hasn’t condemned every untrue thing said about him.

Given the President's Evangelical and conservative Catholic support, the Trump prophecies are too big for the President to ignore. If President Trump had any moral integrity, he should have condemned them. He didn't, showing that he's just another fetid anti-christ claiming divine sanctions to rule and to claim obedience.

You have a very poor and immature understanding of the Catholic teaching on sinning by commission and omission.

This is another ad hominem and is unworthy of you.

Sin is ALL about intent – and you cannot sin without intent.

This doesn't excuse your sin of omission in respect to the Trump prophecies which have been around for years. You sinned because of your silence in respect to them, in one of the Nine Ways you can be an accessory to sin.

As for the civil War – STUDY YOUR HISTORY.
It was about FAR more than slavery – although slavery was the main topic.

I would agree that the Civil War was about some minor issues apart from slavery, but they were not part of the casus belli that originated the conflict. I do study history.

It WAS about state’s rights – but that is neither here nor there.

The South didn't support states rights until after the Civil War. Before the war, they were against states rights condemning it because it interfered with the fugitive slave laws. States rights in one of the Lost Cause fictions that developed after that war.

Mississippi was ONE state and died not relresent ALL of the grievances of every other Southern state

I would agree that there were other, separate grievances in the various ordinances of secession that the Southern states had issued, but that is irrelevant. All of the Confederate States subscribed ultimately to the constitution that they adopted, enshrining slavery as a perpetual institution.

besides, my point is that the President is doing ALL he can to bring the country back to normal – but is being fought all the way by each individual state. READ your Constitution.

Your ideas about States losing their rights during a pandemic are NOT based in any kind of fact – but solely on your own opinion.

This is why I keep telling you to do your HOMEWORK before you post.

All this has no basis in reality. The President already has the authority to deal with the pandemic. He should have declared it a national emergency and dealt with it using his authority to deal with pandemic emergencies and biological attacks as Commander-In-Chief. This is one of his powers. Or do you say that the President has no recourse of action if we're facing a biological attack?

Also, as I've already said, States have certain rights, but they're irrelevant in a national emergency regarding a pandemic. Trump failed to exercise leadership and passed the responsibility to the states, in effect, creating the ineffective 50-state response that we currently see concerning the epidemic. That is why we see the monumental numbers of infections and deaths, many of which have been unnecessary.

Finally – regarding your misuse of the word “veneration” – it is NOT the same thing as “worship”:

Venerate definition:
verb
1. regard with great respect; revere.
"Mother Teresa is venerated as a saint"

Worship definition:
noun
1. the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.
"the worship of God"

Veneration is not “worship” so much as it is adulation and respect.
That’s why – for the THIRD time – I said that we don’t just venerate Christ – we WORSHIP Him.

Just admit that you used the wrong word and move on . . .

Venerate (the verb), strictly speaking, is not a synonym to worship (the noun). That is a blunder on your part. Veneration and worship are synonyms, strictly speaking. If you remember your high school English, synonyms have the same general meaning but differ in application, according to common usage.

Thesaurus results for VENERATION

Synonyms & Near Synonyms for veneration

acclamation, adoration, adulation, approbation, deference, hero worship, homage, honor, idolatry, infatuation, lionization, praise, props [slang], reverence, worship

Thesaurus results for WORSHIP

When could reverence be used to replace worship?
The words reverence and worship can be used in similar contexts, but reverence presupposes an intrinsic merit and inviolability in the one honored and a similar depth of feeling in the one honoring.

When is venerate a more appropriate choice than worship?
While the synonyms venerate and worship are close in meaning, venerate implies a holding as holy or sacrosanct because of character, association, or age.

By common usage, we can restrict the word "worship" to God alone, but that is only a convention in English usage. I don't think you've made your case.


Remember, Trump is the center of a political cult. He is an anti-christ that is worshiped by his followers. We have only one anointed one, that is Christ the Lord.

 

[BreadOfLife]

This is ad hominem and is unworthy of you.

No - it's not an "ad hominem". Your arguments ARE asinine and based on opinion and very little fact.
That's called an observation - not an ad hominem . . .

You are not "less" or "more" of a Catholic. Either you are a Catholic or you are not. It's that you've failed to condemn the Trump prophecies as you are required to do by your church's teaching. You persisted in your silence, one of the Nine Ways of being an accessory to sin.
This doesn't excuse your sin of omission in respect to the Trump prophecies which have been around for years. You sinned because of your silence in respect to them, in one of the Nine Ways you can be an accessory to sin.

There is not a SINGLE Catholic teaching that "requires" me to know about every lie known to man. If I never heard about these "prophecies" - then how could I condemn them?? As I stated before - you have a woefully-ignorant understanding of Catholic teaching.

Given the President's Evangelical and conservative Catholic support, the Trump prophecies are too big for the President to ignore. If President Trump had any moral integrity, he should have condemned them. He didn't, showing that he's just another fetid anti-christ claiming divine sanctions to rule and to claim obedience.

This is complete nonsense as you are assigning responsibility to the President to know every lie or tall tale told about him.
Nobody is responsible for the things people day ABOUT them.

THIS is a prime example of why I told you that your arguments ar immature and childish . . .

This is another ad hominem and is unworthy of you.

Again - NOT an ad hominem - but an observation.
I don't think you even know what an "ad hominem" is - although it seems to be your favorite term . . .

I would agree that the Civil War was about some minor issues apart from slavery, but they were not part of the casus belli that originated the conflict. I do study history.

The South didn't support states rights until after the Civil War. Before the war, they were against states rights condemning it because it interfered with the fugitive slave laws. States rights in one of the Lost Cause fictions that developed after that war.

I would agree that there were other, separate grievances in the various ordinances of secession that the Southern states had issued, but that is irrelevant. All of the Confederate States subscribed ultimately to the constitution that they adopted, enshrining slavery as a perpetual institution.

All this has no basis in reality. The President already has the authority to deal with the pandemic. He should have declared it a national emergency and dealt with it using his authority to deal with pandemic emergencies and biological attacks as Commander-In-Chief. This is one of his powers. Or do you say that the President has no recourse of action if we're facing a biological attack?

Also, as I've already said, States have certain rights, but they're irrelevant in a national emergency regarding a pandemic. Trump failed to exercise leadership and passed the responsibility to the states, in effect, creating the ineffective 50-state response that we currently see concerning the epidemic. That is why we see the monumental numbers of infections and deaths, many of which have been unnecessary.

Regardless of the South's collective understanding of Slavery as a perpetual institution - the War was not fought about slavery alone.

But I digress, because this entire tangential argument had absolutely NOTHING to do with the original debate - other than to show you that the President is NOT a monarch who simply declares and decrees things that every state must obey.
YOU seem to think that he can simply "order" every stat to run their Covid programs in lock step with the Federal government - and this is NOT the case.

Venerate (the verb), strictly speaking, is not a synonym to worship (the noun). That is a blunder on your part. Veneration and worship are synonyms, strictly speaking. If you remember your high school English, synonyms have the same general meaning but differ in application, according to common usage.

Thesaurus results for VENERATION

Synonyms & Near Synonyms for veneration

acclamation, adoration, adulation, approbation, deference, hero worship, homage, honor, idolatry, infatuation, lionization, praise, props [slang], reverence, worship

Thesaurus results for WORSHIP

When could reverence be used to replace worship?
The words reverence and worship can be used in similar contexts, but reverence presupposes an intrinsic merit and inviolability in the one honored and a similar depth of feeling in the one honoring.

When is venerate a more appropriate choice than worship?
While the synonyms venerate and worship are close in meaning, venerate implies a holding as holy or sacrosanct because of character, association, or age.

By common usage, we can restrict the word "worship" to God alone, but that is only a convention in English usage. I don't think you've made your case.

Remember, Trump is the center of a political cult. He is an anti-christ that is worshiped by his followers. We have only one anointed one, that is Christ the Lord.

Another asinine argument based on your personal disdain for the man - and ZERO fact or reason.

By your idiotic logic - every sports hero, every historical figure or intellectual giant, every musician or artist or anybody else who is admired for excelling at what they do is an "antichrist".

You needn't worry, though.
Nobody is going to put YOU in that category for writing this kind of drivel . . .

 

[bukka]

No - it's not an "ad hominem". Your arguments ARE asinine and based on opinion and very little fact.

This is both unsupported assertion and ad hominem which is unworthy of you.

That's called an observation - not an ad hominem . . .

This is the rationalization of the sin of malice, the abuse of another.

here is not a SINGLE Catholic teaching that "requires" me to know about every lie known to man. If I never heard about these "prophecies" - then how could I condemn them?? As I stated before - you have a woefully-ignorant understanding of Catholic teaching.

This is more rationalization of sin. For thousands of posts, here on Christianity Board, you've chiding others for an ignorance of Catholic teaching and other matters, for failing to do the needed 'do diligence' to properly learn and understand a subject. Yet you've failed to do the proper 'do diligence' in respect to President Trump and the controversies that have surrounded him, in this case the Trump Prophecies. This negligent concern for the truth does point, in many instances to your indifference towards it, which is sinful. I notice that you've only superficially attempted to answer my arguments.

What I've said still holds. You're now aware of Silentium consensu importat, that silence implies consent. Within your church, the Nine Ways to be an accessory to Sin, again, are: By counsel, By command, By consent, By provocation, By praise or flattery, By concealment, By partaking, By silence, and By the defense of the evil done. Your being an accessory to the sin, involving the Trump prophecies, and anti-christ, is your silence in respect to them. You had needed to speak out. That was an imperative responsibility. You didn't do so. You became an accessory to sin.

Why are you so abusive with people you disagree with? Why all the name calling? Why is it that you're always posting with such malice?

What had been a terrible surprise to you is that you've attacked a Protestant who's been doing 'do diligence' in Catholic spiritual theology. As a Charismatic, I've discovered that I've had to learn about the charisms in the past centuries. I had to learn about Catholic teaching. Now, in the deepest of ironies, I have to address your stunning ignorance of the Catholic faith. Are you teachable? Can you learn from others?

In Catholic teaching there is the discernment of Spirits, how to tell if one is being influenced, or possessed by the divine or by the diabolical spirit. What do you think on these matters?

The 16 signs of the divine Spirit are: Truth, Gravity, Enlightenment, Docility, Discretion, Humility, Peace, Confidence in God, Flexibility of Will, Purity of Intention, Patience in suffering, Self-abnegation (taking up one's cross), Simplicity, Liberty of spirit, Desire to imitate Christ, and Disinterested love.

Are people on Christianity Board seeing this coming from you?

The 18 signs of the diabolical spirit are: Spirit of falsity, Morbid curiosity, Confusion, Obstinacy, Constant indiscretion, Spirit of pride and vanity, Restlessness and unnecessary anxiety, False humility, Despair, Presumption, Disobedience, Selfish motives, Impatience, Rebellion of the passions (violent inclinations to evil), Hypocrisy, Attachment to created things, Neglect of the imitation of Christ, and feigned charity.

Are people on Christianity Board seeing this coming from you?

Then there are the outward signs of the fruits of the Holy Spirit and the great sins against the Holy Spirit.

The 12 fruits of the Holy Spirit are: Charity, Joy, Peace, Patience, Longanimity, Goodness, Benignity, Mildness, Fidelity, Modesty, Continency, and Chastity.

Are people on Christianity Board seeing this coming from you?

The 6 great sins against the Holy Spirit are: Presumption, Despair of God's mercy, Resisting the known truth, Envy of another's spiritual good, Obstinacy in sin, and Final impenitence.

Are people on Christianity Board seeing this coming from you?

I think that you may not like how other people think of you. I suspect that you may not care. I don't have to insult you. I think that what you've shown us is sufficient for us to draw the conclusions.

I'm sure that Catholics have sent you a PM saying you should see a priest and do confession, saying you need deep spiritual counseling. I suspect that you're actually very hostile to the Catholic church.

This is complete nonsense as you are assigning responsibility to the President to know every lie or tall tale told about him.
Nobody is responsible for the things people day ABOUT them.

THIS is a prime example of why I told you that your arguments ar immature and childish . . .

This cannot possibly be correct because if the ministers, who were in the Oval Office, laid hands upon Trump and prayed with Trump, they would have explained the meaning of the "laying on of hands", and the belief in their "anointing" of him in his leadership. Trump would have to have heard about the prophecies about him, eventually, from his syncopants. That's simply human nature.

Again, I say that when Trump was in the early months of his Presidency, he should have came out and condemned these prophecies, saying that he was, in no way, "anointed" by God. He failed to do so. This meant, in effect, that Trump consented to them, hoping that gullible people would fall for them and support him as a leader with a religious sanction. Technically, this made him an anti-christ, one of the many fetid anti-christs that have come down through the centuries who've claimed divine sanctions to rule and to compel obedience. One thing that we do know about Trump is his concerns for wealth, power and obedience.

You cannot plead the case of Trump's ignorance.

The last ad hominem is unworthy of you.

Again - NOT an ad hominem - but an observation.

This is the rationalization of the sin of malice, the abuse of another.

I don't think you even know what an "ad hominem" is - although it seems to be your favorite term . . .

This is feigned speculation as a part of the rationalization of the sin of malice, the abuse of another.

Regardless of the South's collective understanding of Slavery as a perpetual institution - the War was not fought about slavery alone.

But I digress, because this entire tangential argument had absolutely NOTHING to do with the original debate - other than to show you that the President is NOT a monarch who simply declares and decrees things that every state must obey.

Again you're incorrect. The American Presidency has much more power than that of the Confederate Presidency. In times of national emergency, federal authority eventually must prevail over state authority depending on the matter.

I think that you have an exaggerated understanding of State's Rights in the American system as opposed to the Confederate system.

YOU seem to think that he can simply "order" every stat to run their Covid programs in lock step with the Federal government - and this is NOT the case.

As I've said before, Trump failed to use the discretionary powers that he already possesses to deal with national pandemic emergencies and biological attacks. Trump can defend the national interest in his authority as Commander-In-Chief.

State institutions involving medicine, and hospitals, can be directly placed under federal authority in the event of a pandemic or biological attack from another country for the purposes of resolving the pandemic or the attack.

Another asinine argument based on your personal disdain for the man - and ZERO fact or reason.

By your idiotic logic - every sports hero, every historical figure or intellectual giant, every musician or artist or anybody else who is admired for excelling at what they do is an "antichrist".

This ad hominem is unworthy of you.

And so this is your acknowledgement that veneration is a synonym of worship? I guess so.

I see that you don't like your idol, Donald Trump, being attacked.

You needn't worry, though.
Nobody is going to put YOU in that category for writing this kind of drivel . . .

Your nostrils must have been flared in anger when you posted that.

This ad hominem is unworthy of you.

 

[BreadOfLife]

This is both unsupported assertion and ad hominem which is unworthy of you.
This is the rationalization of the sin of malice, the abuse of another.
This is the rationalization of the sin of malice, the abuse of another.
This is feigned speculation as a part of the rationalization of the sin of malice, the abuse of another.
The last ad hominem is unworthy of you.
This ad hominem is unworthy of you.
This ad hominem is unworthy of you.
Your nostrils must have been flared in anger when you posted that.

And ALL of these excuses are a weak defense of your failure to support your position.

This is more rationalization of sin. For thousands of posts, here on Christianity Board, you've chiding others for an ignorance of Catholic teaching and other matters, for failing to do the needed 'do diligence' to properly learn and understand a subject. Yet you've failed to do the proper 'do diligence' in respect to President Trump and the controversies that have surrounded him, in this case the Trump Prophecies. This negligent concern for the truth does point, in many instances to your indifference towards it, which is sinful. I notice that you've only superficially attempted to answer my arguments.

What I've said still holds. You're now aware of Silentium consensu importat, that silence implies consent. Within your church, the Nine Ways to be an accessory to Sin, again, are: By counsel, By command, By consent, By provocation, By praise or flattery, By concealment, By partaking, By silence, and By the defense of the evil done. Your being an accessory to the sin, involving the Trump prophecies, and anti-christ, is your silence in respect to them. You had needed to speak out. That was an imperative responsibility. You didn't do so. You became an accessory to sin.

Why are you so abusive with people you disagree with? Why all the name calling? Why is it that you're always posting with such malice?

What had been a terrible surprise to you is that you've attacked a Protestant who's been doing 'do diligence' in Catholic spiritual theology. As a Charismatic, I've discovered that I've had to learn about the charisms in the past centuries. I had to learn about Catholic teaching. Now, in the deepest of ironies, I have to address your stunning ignorance of the Catholic faith. Are you teachable? Can you learn from others?

In Catholic teaching there is the discernment of Spirits, how to tell if one is being influenced, or possessed by the divine or by the diabolical spirit. What do you think on these matters?

The 16 signs of the divine Spirit are: Truth, Gravity, Enlightenment, Docility, Discretion, Humility, Peace, Confidence in God, Flexibility of Will, Purity of Intention, Patience in suffering, Self-abnegation (taking up one's cross), Simplicity, Liberty of spirit, Desire to imitate Christ, and Disinterested love.

Are people on Christianity Board seeing this coming from you?

The 18 signs of the diabolical spirit are: Spirit of falsity, Morbid curiosity, Confusion, Obstinacy, Constant indiscretion, Spirit of pride and vanity, Restlessness and unnecessary anxiety, False humility, Despair, Presumption, Disobedience, Selfish motives, Impatience, Rebellion of the passions (violent inclinations to evil), Hypocrisy, Attachment to created things, Neglect of the imitation of Christ, and feigned charity.

Are people on Christianity Board seeing this coming from you?

Then there are the outward signs of the fruits of the Holy Spirit and the great sins against the Holy Spirit.

The 12 fruits of the Holy Spirit are: Charity, Joy, Peace, Patience, Longanimity, Goodness, Benignity, Mildness, Fidelity, Modesty, Continency, and Chastity.

Are people on Christianity Board seeing this coming from you?

The 6 great sins against the Holy Spirit are: Presumption, Despair of God's mercy, Resisting the known truth, Envy of another's spiritual good, Obstinacy in sin, and Final impenitence.

Are people on Christianity Board seeing this coming from you?

I think that you may not like how other people think of you. I suspect that you may not care. I don't have to insult you. I think that what you've shown us is sufficient for us to draw the conclusions.

I'm sure that Catholics have sent you a PM saying you should see a priest and do confession, saying you need deep spiritual counseling. I suspect that you're actually very hostile to the Catholic church.

I'm not "abusive" to anybody who simply disagrees with me.
I simply out people like YOU - who LIE about Catholic teaching - in their place.

You want respect and charity??
Try GIVING some . . .

This cannot possibly be correct because if the ministers, who were in the Oval Office, laid hands upon Trump and prayed with Trump, they would have explained the meaning of the "laying on of hands", and the belief in their "anointing" of him in his leadership. Trump would have to have heard about the prophecies about him, eventually, from his syncopants. That's simply human nature.

Again, I say that when Trump was in the early months of his Presidency, he should have came out and condemned these prophecies, saying that he was, in no way, "anointed" by God. He failed to do so. This meant, in effect, that Trump consented to them, hoping that gullible people would fall for them and support him as a leader with a religious sanction. Technically, this made him an anti-christ, one of the many fetid anti-christs that have come down through the centuries who've claimed divine sanctions to rule and to compel obedience. One thing that we do know about Trump is his concerns for wealth, power and obedience.

You cannot plead the case of Trump's ignorance.

I'm not "pleading" anything.
I am stating plainly that neither the President nor I nor anybody else is responsible for the rubbish people say about them.

YOUR judgement of him and me will only lead to your spiritual demise . . .

Again you're incorrect. The American Presidency has much more power than that of the Confederate Presidency. In times of national emergency, federal authority eventually must prevail over state authority depending on the matter.
I think that you have an exaggerated understanding of State's Rights in the American system as opposed to the Confederate system.

As I've said before, Trump failed to use the discretionary powers that he already possesses to deal with national pandemic emergencies and biological attacks. Trump can defend the national interest in his authority as Commander-In-Chief.

State institutions involving medicine, and hospitals, can be directly placed under federal authority in the event of a pandemic or biological attack from another country for the purposes of resolving the pandemic or the attack.

And what YOU think or believe and what the Constitution of the United States allows are completely different matters.

You really have your homework cut out for you . . .

And so this is your acknowledgement that veneration is a synonym of worship? I guess so.
I see that you don't like your idol, Donald Trump, being attacked.

No - I would just rather debate with an adult.

Time for you to step aside and let the serious posters have a shot . . .

 

[Joseph77]

Is this what Jesus warns us about the antichrist among us ? Not to listen, and when possible, they are dealt with (when in an actual meeting of or assembly of those who are truthfully born again ones ).

 

[bukka]

Is this what Jesus warns us about the antichrist among us ? Not to listen, and when possible, they are dealt with (when in an actual meeting of or assembly of those who are truthfully born again ones ).

I would agree, Joseph77. Those who worship the anti-christ, or who are the supporters of an anti-christ, are hollow within, and are not to be listened to in the matter of their apostasy. They may be of many words or few, in the abyss of that hollowness, but their words are as the wind. The blast of wind may seem mighty for a time, but soon the wind is gone, and the memory of that wind passes away.

 

[bukka]

People need to remember the false prophecies of Mark Taylor, Lance Wallnau, etc. supporting Trump.

Here is the full text of one notorious prophecy, that of Mark Taylor:

From Left to Right


FULL TEXT of Mark Taylor's April 28, 2011 Commander in Chief Prophecy:

[1]"The Spirit of God says I've chosen this man Donald Trump for such a time as this. [2]For as Benjamin Netanyahu is to Israel, so shall this man be to the United States of America, for I will use this man to bring honor, respect and restoration to America.

[3]America will be respected once again as the most powerful, prosperous nation on Earth other than Israel. [4]The dollar will be the strongest it has ever been in the history of the United States and will once again be the currency by which all others are judged.

[5]The Spirit of God says the enemy will quake and shake and fear this man I have anointed. [6]They will even quake and shake when he announces he is running for President. [7]It will be like the shot heard across the world.

[8]Then you will say what shall we do now? [9]This man knows all our tricks and schemes. [10]We've been robbing America for decades. [11]What should we do to stop this? [12]The Spirit says, ha, no one shall stop this that I have started, for the enemy has stolen from America for decades and it stops now. [13]For I will use this man to reap the harvest that the United States has sown for and plunder from the enemy what he has stolen and return it back seven-fold to the United States.

[14]The enemy will say, 'Israel, Israel, what about Israel?' [15]Israel will be protected by America once again. [16]The Spirit says yes, America will once again stand hand in hand with Israel and the two shall be as one, for the ties between Israel and America will be stronger than ever and Israel will flourish like never before.

[17]The Spirit of God says I will protect America and Israel, for this next President will be a man of his word. [18]When he speaks the world will listen and know that there is something greater in him than all the others before him. [19]This man's word is his bond and the world and America will know this, and the enemy will fear this, for this man will be fearless.

[20]The Spirit says when the financial harvest begins so shall the parallel in the spiritual for America.

[21]The Spirit of God says in this next election they will spend billions to keep this president out. [22]It will be like money down the toilet. [23]Let them waste their money, for where it comes from is being used by evil forces at work, but they will not succeed. [24]This next election will be a clean sweep for the man that I have chosen. [24]They will say things about this man, the enemy, but it will not affect him and they will say it rolls off of him like a duck. [25]For even as the feathers of a duck protect it, so shall my feathers protect this next president.

[26]Even mainstream news media will be captivated by this man and the abilities that I gift to him and they will even begin to agree with him, says the Spirit." – Mark Taylor

I've numbered the sentences (or verses) of this prophecy and have also broke it into paragraphs. As one can see from the text, there is manifestly false prophecy contained in it.

Trump has never disowned the prophecies given by various people concerning him. When Trump was in the early months of his Presidency, Trump, himself, should have came out and condemned these prophecies, saying that he was, in no way, "anointed" by God. He failed to do so. This meant, in effect, that Trump consented to them, hoping that gullible people would fall for them and support him as a leader. Technically, this made him an anti-christ, one of the many fetid anti-christs that have come down through the centuries who've claimed divine sanctions to rule and to compel obedience. One thing that we do know about Trump is his concerns for wealth, power and obedience.

We have a right to be suspicious of Trump and to question him when he he does various moral actions that are repugnant to Christian belief. Let us all agree that Trump is not not of God. As an anti-christ, Trump is, by definition, anti-God and anti-family.

This also means, on this forum, Christianity Board, Christians have a perfect right to be suspicious of false christs, people who claim to be "anointed", or accept from others that certain people are "anointed" by God. Trump is not "anointed" by God.

For myself, I only accept Jesus as the Christ. It is only he who is Lord and Savior.

 

[Joseph77]

People need to remember the false prophecies of Mark Taylor, Lance Wallnau, etc. supporting Trump.

No, there is no reason to remember any false prophecy about any of the presidents ....

If and when there is a true prophecy, that is better.

There was one some time before Trump was put in office - a true prophecy simply that God would put Trump in office. Nothing false about that - it happened.

Looking at the false prophecy, has no benefit for anyone, unless they followed one of the false prophets - and then it would only help if they were shown their error(s) - a prophecy that did not happen, and repented.

 

[Joseph77]

We have a right to be suspicious of Trump and to question him when he he does various moral actions that are repugnant to Christian belief.

I don't know - maybe. Does God give that right ? God tells us enough not to trust men.
Why be suspicious of him, of any leader of any nation for that matter?
Simply instead trust Jesus and trust the Father in heaven.
All the leaders of the nations , it is written, committed fornication with the beast or system or enemy..... not one might be UNsuspicious, and if another was in place of the one in place, the same would still apply - do not trust men, nor the strength of government or of armies for deliverance - trust the Father in heaven, not men.