Sources? I know you don't have credible sources for this. I know that.
Trump using the Bible as a prop...
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bukka
Well-Known Member
If I recall correctly, the Patriot Act doesn't eliminate due process and the civil rights of American citizens. Do you feel comfortable living in a police state if that's true? Does this mean that police can murder citizens?
I also remember the Bush administration's argument about detainees at Gitmo; and the Supreme Court (like it or not) said that since the people detained there had never stepped foot on American soil, they weren't entitled to all the rights of people in the USA.
Trump can talk about declaring this group or that a terrorist organization; but he can't apply it domestically. That applies only to foreign groups. His talk is more hot air that betrays his ignorance of how things work.
Trump Can't Designate Antifa -- or Any Movement -- Domestic Terrorist Organization
As some nationwide protests have turned violent, President Donald Trump pointed to the anti-fascist movement antifa, claiming: “The United States of America will be designating ANTIFA as a Terrorist Organization.” But there is no such official federal designation for domestic terrorism organizations.
Experts cited other reasons a designation — even if it were made possible — would be difficult or questionable. Antifa isn’t one organization but rather an umbrella term for far-left militant anti-fascism groups.
James J.F. Forest, professor in the University of Massachusetts Lowell’s School of Criminology and Justice Studies, told us in an email. “So, imagine the difficulty a prosecutor would face in a court of law ‘proving beyond a reasonable doubt’ an individual was a member of ANTIFA.”
As far as we know, antifa doesn’t have bank accounts or assets or infrastructure, Faiza Patel, director of the liberty & national security program at the Brennan Center for Justice, told us in an interview. Also there haven’t been any deaths attributed to anti-fascist violence, and one of the hallmarks of foreign terrorist organizations — a designation the U.S. government does make — is the acknowledgement of attacks that involve many fatalities.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
If you can, find a copy of a video showing Brett Kavanaugh's confirmation hearing. Fast forward to the point where Lindsey Graham asks Brett Kavanaugh about "enemy combatants."
User Clip: Sen Graham asks about Military Tribunals | C-SPAN.org
Bear in mind that Antifa has been declared an INTERNATIONAL terrorist organization. What is an attack on a Federal Building by an international terrorist?
bukka
Well-Known Member
The Patriot Act does involve the surveillance of American and foreign nationals with little due process. That can be admitted. There's no need to refer to the Brett Kavanough confirmation hearing.
That could be construed as a terrorist action. But keep in mind, the Patriot Act only allows for the arrest and detention of non-nationals under its provisions. The usual domestic laws apply to American citizens with no loss of due process and civil rights.
I disagree if these are American citizens. American civil rights are inalienable or are you comforted,somehow, that civil rights do not exist or that any Administration can take them away from you?
Kavanaugh correctly says American citizens have rights that are protected. If someone commits a crime, he can be prosecuted in the courts. If he provides aid and comfort to our miltary enemies, he can be tried in military courts. None of that means that border patrol agents have the right to snatch citizens off the street without identifying themselves, without probable cause and detaining them without making a charge.
Who declared it that? Trump doesn't have the authority to do that.
If foreign agents commit acts of terror in the US, they are to be tried in civil courts unless martial law has been declared. The miltary doesn't have the right to go around arresting and deporting people inside the USA. That's what happens in dictatorships.
Give your source please for the assertion that Antifa has been declared an international terrorist organization. If you read that somewhere, I'd like to know who told it to you. Someone fed you a bunch of malarky. (I hope you didn't make it up yourself.)
Better yet, visit the State Department's website which has a list of "foreign terrorist organizations."
Foreign Terrorist Organizations - United States Department of State
I find it very odd that the people on the right fantasizing about how "the liberals" want to take away their rights are often the same people in favor of depriving others of their rights.
I don't know how many followers DeAnna Lorraine, QAnon conspiracy theorist, has; but she's talking about forming militias to take back the country.
DeAnna Lorraine Urges Conservatives to Form Militias While Awaiting the ‘Green Light’ to Take Back the Streets | Right Wing Watch
“I think a lot of us are waiting for a green light where someone—whether it be President Trump or someone else—says, ‘OK, everyone grab your guns, you go here, you go there, you go there, and let’s organize and fight back,'” Lorraine said. “It’s not necessarily so realistic for Trump to just shout that out on Twitter. That would be kind of a precarious position for him to put himself in, if he literally says those words and gives that green light that we’re all waiting for. So, I believe that this is the time for us to stand up and get organized in small or large groups, city by city, and start taking back our cities.”
“If you get word of a statue about to be knocked down, or a building about to be defaced, or an anarchist about to come and do something or loot or riot, we’ve got to organize and go there,” she continued. “We’ve got to create our own and execute our own militias”.
I call that anarchy, taking justice into your own hands instead of letting the police and legal system take care of problems.
bukka
Well-Known Member
I would agree, Giuliano.
Historically, Antifa exists to fight Alt Right fascist militias that already exist such as the Ku Klux Klan. Perhaps, DeAnna Lorraine is ashamed of militias having fascist connections and is wanting the general public to join in on the disorders.
It is anarchy that she's espousing. I doubt, though, that the American public is interested in what she's advocating, especially when they can see the meaning behind the political caricatures of the BLM and Antifa by the Alt Right, that of depriving American citizens of their civil rights. If she was a Christian, she should have spoken about the Golden Rule and the parable of the Good Samaritan.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Did you listen to the video? Did you listen carefully?
Go to 3:54
Lindsey Graham: "But you don't have a constitutional right to turn on your own government and collaborate with the enemy of the nation. You will be treated differently. . . . you could hold one of our own as an enemy combatant if they were engaged in terrorist activities in
Afghanistan . . .
Justice Kavanaugh agreed with Senator Graham, that American citizens can be held as enemy combatants.
I agree that the civil rights of Americans are inalienable, meaning they can't be transferred to another person or the government.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I misunderstood William Barr's statement. I know that Antifa is international. The DOJ considers them a domestic terrorist group.
Attorney General William P. Barr's Statement on Riots and Domestic Terrorism
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Disagree. Antifa physically attacks all those who protest for conservative ideas and causes. I have seen it with my own eyes. This is NOT a rational debate between two groups with different ideas. NO. This is a group that uses physical violence to shut down all voices. They stole their name from a German Communist group. There is nothing new about this organization. They exist only to intimidate and to silence decent. They are the strong arm of the Democratic Party. They only exist in Democratic cities and States. Their job is to keep a ground roots movement from removing these leaders from office.
Antifaschistische Aktion - Wikipedia
I haven't checked it lately but from what I remember under the Patriot Act even citizens when accused [accused, not convicted] of terrorism may lose their right to due process. The powers that be may not have used this much thus far [but how can I know for certain?], but that law was passed a long time ago and the courts have not struck it down as unconstitutional. The problem of course is if due process is lost a person could be arrested and imprisoned without ever [for someone without money or influential friends...?] coming before a judge to even consider changing the sentence or dismissing the case because it might be unconstitutional. I am no lawyer, but something is certainly rotten in Denmark... or is it in the USA?
I read the whole statement and didn't see Antifa termed a "domestic terrorist group." Barr condemned violence carried out by some groups as domestic terrorism. Such violence is against the law and can be prosecuted. Belonging to Antifa by itself is not a crime.
Federal law enforcement actions will be directed at apprehending and charging the violent radical agitators who have hijacked peaceful protest and are engaged in violations of federal law.
To identify criminal organizers and instigators, and to coordinate federal resources with our state and local partners, federal law enforcement is using our existing network of 56 regional FBI Joint Terrorism Task Forces (JTTF).
The violence instigated and carried out by Antifa and other similar groups in connection with the rioting is domestic terrorism and will be treated accordingly.”
To identify criminal organizers and instigators, and to coordinate federal resources with our state and local partners, federal law enforcement is using our existing network of 56 regional FBI Joint Terrorism Task Forces (JTTF).
The violence instigated and carried out by Antifa and other similar groups in connection with the rioting is domestic terrorism and will be treated accordingly.”
In Afghanistan or any other country, yes. On the streets of American cities, no. You certainly can't be arrested in the US and sent to Gitmo without a trial.
Just for your information. First from the following site to update information I have which is much older:
How does the Patriot Act strip away the Bill of Rights? | YoExpert Q&A
Copied from above site:
On September 11th, 2001 America witnessed an atrocity. What exactly happened on that day is still, by many accounts, unclear. One of the consequences, though, is very clear. Using the fear generated after the 9/11 attacks, George Bush signed into law the Patriot Act. A piece of legislation that stomps on American rights in the name of terrorism. Anger and fear cloud the mind, producing irrational thoughts and feelings. So much so that citizens will give up civil liberties to defend freedom. For example, Amendment IV protects citizens from illegal search and seizure. It asks that a warrant for probable cause be given before any personal search can be done. The act completely ignores this in the name of terrorism. It states that the government may search and seize at any time without a warrant to assist in terror investigations. Regardless of the reasons, this violates one of our most fundamental rights, and is vague on what constitutes "terrorism" in the first place. This applies to citizens of the U.S. just to be clear.
Everyone wants to feel safe, and a violation like the 9/11 attacks brings into question how safe one can be. On the other hand, the chances of being killed by a terrorist is highly improbable, with a long list of deadly things that could happen many times over before a terrorist ever had the chance. When a person feels violated as many did on 9/11, their emotions shift into overdrive leaving logic screaming in the dark recesses of the gray matter. This is exactly what happened, and the Patriot Act is the result of people thinking with emotions. Another right, Amendment VI of the Bill of Rights, gives citizens the right to a fair and speedy trial by jury, with the support of counsel. The act gives the power of the government to imprison Americans indefinitely, without a trial or counsel. Of course it says terrorism in this law too, but that word can be thrown around pretty loosely, and defined in many different ways. In any case, It should not matter if a citizen is considered a terrorist. The Bill of Rights applies to all citizens, not just some.
Then I saved this in my computer many years ago when some people were questioning such things as the removal of due process from US Citizens by the Patriot Act provisions. I have it listed under a
media release dated 12-11-2004 from:
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 15:56:48 -0800
From: "GeorgiaAnn"
Subject: MEDIA RELEASE: Patriot Act 1 & 2
Excerpts from what I have saved from that 2004 release:
Here is a quick thumbnail sketch of just some of the
draconian measures encapsulated within this tyrannical
legislation:
SECTION 501 (Expatriation of Terrorists) expands the
Bush administration'?s enemy combatant definition to
all American citizens who may have violated any
provision of Section 802 of the first Patriot Act.
(Section 802 is the new definition of domestic
terrorism, and the definition is any action that
endangers human life that is a violation of any
Federal or State law. ) Section 501 of the second
Patriot Act directly connects to Section 125 of the
same act. The Justice Department boldly claims that
the incredibly broad Section 802 of the First USA
Patriot Act isn?t broad enough and that a new,
unlimited definition of terrorism is needed.
Under Section 501 a US citizen engaging in lawful
activities can be grabbed off the street and thrown
into a van never to be seen again. The Justice
Department states that they can do this because the
person had inferred from conduct that they were not a
US citizen. Remember Section 802 of the First USA
Patriot Act states that any violation of Federal or
State law can result in the enemy combatant terrorist
designation.
SECTION 201 of the second Patriot Act makes it a
criminal act for any member of the government or any
citizen to release any information concerning the
incarceration or whereabouts of detainees. It also
states that law enforcement does not even have to tell
the press who they have arrested and they never have
to release the names.
I don't follow such things much any more for assorted reasons I am not discussing here, but I posted this for the benefit of interested people and in consideration of your statement that no one in USA can be arrested without trial... that is without due process of law supposedly guaranteed under the original Bill of Rights [1st 10 Amendments to the US Constitution]
The leader of a supposedly Christian nation lifting up the Bible - the Word of God, you say, is disgusting and blasphemy. It is good that you tell us in no uncertain terms what kind of person <junobet> is. Herewith it's stop of our acquaintance.
bukka
Well-Known Member
If you've heard of the so-called Trump prophecies of Mark Taylor, Lance Wallnau, etc. and Trump's supposed "anointing" by God, that Trump is another "christ", or "anointed one", I think you'd find the act disgusting and blasphemous. I side with junobet on this. For us, Jesus is the Christ, and is our only Lord and Savior.
Also, America is not, and has never been a Christian nation. Christ calls us as individuals, one by one. He does not call nations to himself. Many are called but few are chosen.
junobet's point is taken. For an anti-christ, such as Trump, using the Bible is only a hypocritical prop. Trump's life indicates that he doesn't believe in it.
Aren't you being rather quick in your judgement in respect to junobet? Maybe you should hear junobet out on this matter.
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BreadOfLife
Well-Known Member
- Jan 2, 2017
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You’re right about the U.S. not officially being a “Christian” nation. But it WAS founded on Judeo-Christian principles – and that is an inescapable, historical FACT. And unless he’s throwing it on the ground and stomping on it – or openly mocking it - A President of the United States wielding a Bible for a photo-op is a good thing.
As for whether President Trump is a “good” person or whether or not he has changed - it’s not up to YOU or me to judge his heart. That is for God ALONE to judge.
God can use whomever He desires to do His will – even a “bad” guy like Pharoah in the OT.
bukka
Well-Known Member
You're not entirely correct there, BreadOfLife. If Christ's message is that "many are called but few are chosen" and that "the way is narrow and few find it", that means that the supposed Judeo-Christian principles that you speak of, especially its moral principles, are going to be rejected by the many. That America can be, somehow, a de facto Christian nation because of foundational principles is a false supposition. Jesus is simply calling individuals, not nations. He's calling the few and warns that the way is narrow. We are not of this world. He doesn't call us to erect kingdoms and nations in his name.
I request that you be more attentive of Scripture.
Not if he is an anti-christ. I don't accept the Trump prophecies from Mark Taylor, Lance Wallnau, etc. For me, I accept Christ Jesus as a sufficient Lord and Savior and do not need any other so-called "anointed" leaders.
I agree.
I agree that God can use whomever he desires to do his will, but Christians are to worship "in Spirit and in Truth". We are not going to be able to worship God by following someone whose conversation invariably betokens deceit, who undermines our walk "in Spirit and in Truth".
For me again, Christ Jesus is Savior and Lord. We do not need any other "anointed" leaders.
God tells Ekklesia to judge all things, so we won't be judged later (and much much more severely),
so then we can recognize those who follow a man instead of following Jesus,
those who bring a false instead of true Gospel,
those who bow down to idols daily, willingly, and continue to say it is not so.
so then we can recognize those who follow a man instead of following Jesus,
those who bring a false instead of true Gospel,
those who bow down to idols daily, willingly, and continue to say it is not so.
I thought it was a defective bill when it first passed. Parts of it got struck down in court.
Has any American ever been prosecuted for terrorism as a result of the spying parts of this law? If so, I haven't heard about it. I think there have been wiretaps done using this law that were used to prosecute other things like drug running, immigration abuses, etc., but no terrorists.
What amazes me is that Trump seemed so offended that someone in his campaign was being spied on but he never called for the law to be changed. In fact, he wanted the wiretap provisions extended. Has this law expired? It was supposed to be temporary. I thought Congress and Trump couldn't agree on things. . . .
Patriot Act - Wikipedia
The Trump administration delivered a letter to Congress in August 2019 urging them to make permanent three surveillance provisions of the Patriot Act. The provisions included section 215, which enables domestic call-record collection as well as the collection of other types of business records.
In November 2019, the House approved a three-month extension of the Patriot Act which would have expired on December 15, 2019. It was included as part of a bigger stop-gap spending bill aimed at preventing government shutdown which was approved by a vote of 231–192. The vote was mostly along party lines with Democrats voting in favor and Republicans voting against. Republican opposition was largely due to the bill's failure to include $5 billion for border security. Ten Democrats voted against the bill. This group included a number of progressive Democrats who urged their colleagues to oppose the bill over the measure to extend surveillance. Representative Justin Amash (Independent) submitted an amendment to remove the Patriot Act provisions, but it was defeated by the House Rules committee.
On March 10, 2020, Jerry Nadler proposed a bill to reauthorize the Patriot Act, and it was then approved the majority of US House of Representatives after 152 Democrats joined the GOP in supporting the extension. The surveillance powers of the Patriot Act needed renewal by March 15, 2020, and after it expired, the U.S. Senate approved an amended version of the bill. After President Donald Trump threatened to veto the bill, the House of Representatives issued an indefinite postponement of the vote to pass the Senate version of the bill; as of June 2020, the Patriot Act remains expired.
It is odd isn't it how when Trump became President, suddenly he liked the idea of spying on other people. He just didn't like it when the FBI was spying on Manafort.
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