Grace vs Legalism

[BarneyFife]

It is important to read through entire books of scripture and get everything in its immediate context.

Not always. But the chapter is about novices who remain novices by not getting the basics down. The way we get them down is by comparing Scripture with Scripture, not parroting our favorites and our teachers' favorites.

 

[Candidus]

Reply

If you believe that John is speaking of a Christian out of context, who has been cleansed OF ALL SIN (the next verse), then you haven't read much. Read 1 John 3 and then tell me if a child of God is a sinner.

Amen!

What does the First Epistle of John say about sin and the Christian?

The apostle John writes in his First Epistle, “My little children, these things I write unto you, that ye sin not.” (Gk, a singular act of sin.) (2:1). “And if any man sin” (not “when”). (2:1).., “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (2:4). “He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.” (2:10). “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.” (3:6). “He that committeth sin is of the devil.” (3: 8). “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;” (3:9). Notice that John speaks of the grace to not sin occurring at the New-Birth. “Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.” (3:7). “For whatsoever is born of God overcommeth the world: and this is the victory that overcommeth the world, even our faith.” (5:4). “We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and the wicked one toucheth him not.” (5:18). “If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.” (1:6). John says point blank that sinning, or walking in the darkness was incompatible with being a Christian. He says so at least 5 times throughout his First Epistle.

V7. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin.

If we are cleansed from ALL SIN... what is left?

V8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Is John really writing this to Christians he just claimed that had ALL SIN cleansed? Did he lie? Or is he writing to the Gnostics in that church who believed that they had no sin to be cleansed of?

V9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.

John is not confused. He is not the most self-contradictory writer in all the Bible. Again, John promises cleansing from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS... is John claiming that we can be cleansed of ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNSS and ALL SIN, and at the same time the Christian is NOT cleansed from ALL SIN or UNRIGHTEOUSNESS?

Everything John writes in this Epistle defies the interpretation that Christians have sin, or continue to sin.

 

[justbyfaith]

Is John really writing this to Christians he just claimed that had ALL SIN cleansed? Did he lie? Or is he writing to the Gnostics in that church who believed that they had no sin to be cleansed of?

If a Christian believes that he has been cleansed of all sin and therefore does not have sin, is he not in the same boat as the gnostic who believes that he has no sin?

 

[Waiting on him]

If a Christian believes that he has been cleansed of all sin and therefore does not have sin, is he not in the same boat as the gnostic who believes that he has no sin?

I personally believe what's in focus here is love for others. In love for others all the law is fulfilled.

 

[justbyfaith]

I personally believe what's in focus here is love for others. In love for others all the law is fulfilled.

In the practical sense. However, this does not eradicate indwelling sin.

Not to be too obnoxiously redundant, indwelling sin can be rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has dominion over my behaviour (Romans 6:14).

 

[Waiting on him]

In the practical sense. However, this does not eradicate indwelling sin.

Not to be too obnoxiously redundant, indwelling sin can be rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has dominion over my behaviour (Romans 6:14).

Indwelling love cast out all fear.

 

[Waiting on him]

When we get to the place where we can love others more than self then we have been made perfect in love. This in my opinion is His task. The reason I say this is because it is at the core of who He is.
He made a grand demonstration of this 2k years ago.

 

[Waiting on him]

In the practical sense. However, this does not eradicate indwelling sin.

Not to be too obnoxiously redundant, indwelling sin can be rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has dominion over my behaviour (Romans 6:14).

I agree because He casts it out, because where His seed is there is no sin

 

[Candidus]

If a Christian believes that he has been cleansed of all sin and therefore does not have sin, is he not in the same boat as the gnostic who believes that he has no sin?

Absolutely not! The Christian is cleansed from all sin, and 1 Jn. 1:8 does not apply to the one who claims they have no sin to be cleansed of. John's remedy to the Gnostic is "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
John could not write so emphatically against sin being in the Christian life as he does so consistently in this Epistle, and claim that he is applying 1:8 to those same people without ripping this verse from its context and applying their own eisegesis.

 

[Candidus]

When we get to the place where we can love others more than self then we have been made perfect in love. This in my opinion is His task. The reason I say this is because it is at the core of who He is.
He made a grand demonstration of this 2k years ago.

God does not ask us to love others more than ourselves, for the command is that we love ourselves. "Love your neighbor as yourself."
But certainly, I cannot will myself to love; God must work that in and through us.

 

[justbyfaith]

Absolutely not! The Christian is cleansed from all sin, and 1 Jn. 1:8 does not apply to the one who claims they have no sin to be cleansed of. John's remedy to the Gnostic is "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
John could not write so emphatically against sin being in the Christian life as he does so consistently in this Epistle, and claim that he is applying 1:8 to those same people without ripping this verse from its context and applying their own eisegesis.

I disagree with you. 1 John 1:8 applies to the one who claims to have no sin, whether they are a Christian or not; and it declares that the one who claims to have no sin does in fact deceive themselves and the truth is not in them.

 

[Candidus]

I disagree with you. 1 John 1:8 applies to the one who claims to have no sin, whether they are a Christian or not; and it declares that the one who claims to have no sin does in fact deceive themselves and the truth is not in them.

Once again, do you not believe that God can cleanse us from ALL Sin? The verse before, and the verse after 1:8 both claim that this is what God does if we confess our sins. If ALL does not mean ALL, what sins is the Atonement of Christ too weak to cleanse us from?

 

[marksman]

-
The reality is........The Blood of Christ has already cleansed our Sin.....all of it.....>Tomorrow's included.
If you don't understand this, and you have been falsely taught that your sin till the Cross is forgiven, and you then get God to take care of the new ones, by repenting, ... = you have been mislead and are practicing a waste of your time.

If you'll take your NT and turn to Colossians 2:13 AND THEN Romans 4:8, you will find an amazing discovery that, if you will believe it, will transform your Life in Christ.

Colossians 2:13 ...Paul teaches you that ALL your sin is gone, forgiven, remitted, redeemed, by Christ on the Cross.
Roman 4:8 Paul then confirms that God does not ever again, hold you accountable for your sin, in eternity.
He can't, as all your sin, ALL OF IT, Paul just told you is taken care of by Jesus on the Cross as the Blood Atonement.
So, your sin is gone, and when you are confessing and repenting of what is not being charged to you, you are wasting your Christian Life.
God does not re-clean you, every time you mess up and tell Him you are sorry.
He has already CLEANED you with the Blood of Jesus, 2000 yrs ago.
Now, when you can SEE THIS, you have taken your first real steps inside the Grace of God, as Right Believing.

Romans 5:20 "Where SIN abounds...Grace moreso Abounds".... = means....when you sin, (works of the Flesh ) after you are saved, the Blood Atonement has already paid for that one ALSO.... It means that when you sin a year from now, on a Monday morning, just before you come here to argue about OSAS, and you sin again (works of the Flesh)....THE CROSS has already taken care of that one also.
Realize the revelation that something that happened 2000+ years ago on a CROSS, is STILL your Salvation 20 yrs from NOW !
Saint, if God didnt take care of all your sin when you were saved, you'd be hell bound the same day you were born again.
You can't save yourself, and you can't keep yourself CLEAN.
You have to TRUST IN CHRIST at some point, with real Faith, so that your walk of faith is inside the Grace of God, trusting in CHRIST ALONE to KEEP YOU SAVED.
Until you can see this, and start to exist there in your MIND, then you will live outside the understanding of the Grace of God and continue to exist as a confessing repenting Discipleship FAILURE.

If a Legalist-Heretic.... could actually comprehend that you can't out-sin the BLOOD of CHRIST, that this blood has actively and permanently SOLVED your "sin" issue, then what a happy Christian they would be, as then they could actually Trust Christ totally., and not just partly.
This is why Jesus died for you. Its what He's doing on the Cross. He is Paying for (cleansing) our sin, from us, by dying FOR IT ALL.
And He DID.

Amazing how many people who claim to be Christians can't even begin to comprehend SALVATION.
Legalists don't understand that the CROSS is a completed work (Blood Atonement), so, they reach into the bible with eyes closed and spiritual mind locked.... and never care to learn or realize that not every verse is aimed at a born again believer.

Now, for the sake of those of you who have not been taught anything about your NT,.... Scriptures in the NT, and OT< are sometimes literal, sometimes symbolic, and sometimes allegorical....in meaning.
For example, "all who call on the name of Jesus, shall be SAVED"...is literal.
But, "take this cup, as its the blood of the New Covenant".. this can't be LITERAL, as Jesus's Blood is still in HIS BODY, when He's drinking the cup.

See it? ?

A legalist does not understand that "where there is no law, there is no transgression".....as "Christ has ABOLISHED THE LAW" is in the NT, reader. Ephesians 2:15
A legalist, reads Romans 4:8, where they are told that God does not hold them accountable, for sin...(impute)(charge).... and they just foolishly ignore this and run back to Hebrews, a book-letter not written to the CHURCH, but to UNSAVED JEWS..."HEBREWS"... and then they get lost in it and stay lost in it.

Ask why LEGALIST,.. Ask WHY does God not hold you accountable, in Eternity, for your sin that you do tomorrow and next week.

A.) Because God already held Jesus accountable on the CROSS for them ALL.
Understand?.... as this is so so important for you to understand.

A Legalist will take a verse out of Matthew, given before Jesus was on the Cross, that is not NT doctrine for the Blood Bought Redeemed Church, and use this verse out of context to prove to themselves they can "lose it"=(Their Salvation)
A Legalist thinks they are in Christ, then fall out of Christ when they sin, and if they confess = do penance or whatever other deeds they can come up with, they get back INTO Christ.
However, Christ has contradicted you, as He said "I will never leave you or forsake you"...so, "Christ in you, the hope of Glory", is a fact, that you need to start believing.

A Legalist actually believes they are saved untill they sin, then confess, and are saved again, ... as if Salvation is a type of Yo-Yo, of sinning confessing, sinning confessing, sinning confessing.....up down, up down in Christ out of Christ, in Christ, out of Christ.,. kinda crazy, isn't it?
And all of this confusion and chaos is not only the misunderstanding the Blood Atonement, its also not giving FULL Credit DUE to the finished work of Jesus on the Cross.... and that is the REAL issue, for the Legalist - Heretic.
Don't be that person.

John 1 v 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. I guess John must have been a legalist.

 

[Candidus]

John 1 v 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. I guess John must have been a legalist.

I think that you might be right. I can only conclude that John certainly wasn't a Christian because the Bible says... “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.” (3:6). “He that committeth sin is of the devil.” (3: 8). “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;” (3:9). “Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.” (3:7). “For whatsoever is born of God overcommeth the world: and this is the victory that overcommeth the world, even our faith.” (5:4). “We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and the wicked one toucheth him not.” (5:18).

 

[Behold]

She didn't say that she had quoted you.

Her exact words were, "no inniendos, just quotes".

.

She said "just Quotes".

There were no quotes.

Run along now, as you have issues.
Comprehension, among others.

 

[Behold]

Not just in God's view, though, actually dead.

Not dead, as in, inactive, I don't think that's what the Bible means when it talks about dead. Rather separated.

Romans 6:6. """knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him""

Romans 6:11...."Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin"""

So, this is the effect of being born again..
YOU are the "new creation", yet, you are IN the old flesh....tho circumcised from it.

We are not to see ourselves as the desires that the flesh will always want, as we are not that, we are a "new creation". Born AGAIN Apart from the flesh, into God's Spirit, becoming "ONE" with God and Christ.
YET, the flesh, has its mind, and Paul refers to it as "members".
Paul says we are to "mortify our members".... = no longer live in the mind of the Flesh, and no longer see it, or allow it to dictate our acts. == "reckon it DEAD". "Crucified with Jesus on the Cross".

Paul defines this dead man, as the mind of the Flesh, or the "Members" that we are to reckon "dead".

If we are allowing our flesh (members) to lead and control, then we are not existing in the right mind of right believing.
We instead find ourselves in a "war", that is the flesh against the Spirit that is Born again.
To get out of that "war" is to believe right, or to only see yourself as God sees you, = AS the Born Again, New Creation in Christ.
Right believing produces Right Living that "mortifies the members" and exists as "walking in the Spirit".

 

[Behold]

And, yeah, I might've read the book of Jude a few hundred times since my grandmother had me memorize it 46 years ago.

You dont need to memorized the bible, you need to discern it.
If you understood this, we could be agreed.
You are nearly 50 yrs, "friend", without discerning the word, which is why you have no idea what you are talking about.
And apparently your High Horse is just as confused.
But you do like to talk, and no doubt, you'll do more. "friend".
Be sure to give your horse my best regards...

 

[Behold]

John 1 v 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. I guess John must have been a legalist.

He's not.
He's also not a sinning apostle.
Ive explained this 40 times to justbyfaith, and he's not able to understand it.
So, i'll try you.

If im preaching to a group, and there are a few in the group who do not believe that sin exists, or do not believe they are sinners..
And they interrupt me and say....>"there is no such thing as sin, sin does not exist, we are not sinners".

Then i say....>"listen, if WE say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves.....etc".

So, i just said. "WE"< yet, im not talking about me, am i? Im only talking about THEM.... yet i said "we".
This is what Preachers to...they say "we" when they are talking about the group.

If you can see this, then find justbyfaith and try to get him to understand it, as he can't for the 7 weeks obo that ive been explaining this to him in many Threads.
Good luck.

 

[Mr C]

1 John 3:9 9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

It is speaking of a lifestyle of sin.

(1Jn 1:6-9) sets the tone for the whole book.

1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

 

[Behold]

It is speaking of a lifestyle of sin.

Its more then that...

ITs the understanding that the "seed" that is in us, the word of God, that produces "fruit", which is to be born again...as this is the fruit that does not sin..

The issue with understanding this.....is when a believer can't understand that the BORN AGAIN Spirit, that is "in Christ" and is "ONE WITH GOD AND CHRIST....who has become this......."As CHIRST IS, ... so are the born again....in this WORLD">...

The carnal christian, who is unable to handle "the meat of the word" and has to be fed the milk of the word, cannot yet SEE themselves as anything other then a SINNER.... a saved sinner.
And because of this they believe they are a sinner who is saved, vs being a born again SAINT and Child of God who is "the righteousness of God".

So, until the babe in Christ can leave the carnal mind of wrong believing, and enter into the right mind of understanding who they are "in Christ", they will not be able to hear or discern, regarding why God only sees them as a "new Creation". sinless. blood bought... and equal to God in Holiness.