Grace vs Legalism

[farouk]

No scripture to prove your opinion.

Simon obeyed the gospel just as the Samaritans (Acts 8:5,12,13).

Therefore if the Samaritans were saved so was Simon.

Peter would have never told a sinner to pray for forgiveness b/c God hears not sinners (Jn 9:31).

Joh 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners:

The Lord Jesus said:

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." (John 10.28-30)

 

[BarneyFife]

Faith is the key. Assurance is a key theme in John's First Epistle.

You might want to double-check on that.

The true believer is not finally lost.

I've been a Christian for 48 years. I've never had enough faith in my sincerity to give me any comfort. All is of grace. Why is John's first epistle to be cherished above other Scripture? The Bible says that man can live only by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. That's the only hope I've ever had that I could hold onto.

 

[farouk]

You might want to double-check on that.

I've been a Christian for 48 years. I've never had enough faith in my sincerity to give me any comfort. All is of grace. Why is John's first epistle to be cherished above other Scripture? The Bible says that man can live only by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. That's the only hope I've ever had that I could hold onto.

1 John 5.13:

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

 

[farouk]

1 John 3.18-19: "My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him."

 

[BarneyFife]

1 John 5.13:

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

I know you can come up with more than one verse to constitute a key theme of an entire 5-chapter epistle.

I propose that the early Christian church was not obsessed with selfish pursuits like "Am I, Oh, am I really saved?" but that they were more captivated with Christ's matchless, unfathomable love toward sinful, rebellious human beings, and that the Sovereign of the Universe could lower Himself to actually become one of us and even give Himself for and to us to rescue us from our quarantine of sin-sickness unto death.

 

[Mr C]

The Lord Jesus said:

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." (John 10.28-30)

The one thing missing from that list is MYSELF.

I can remove myself from the grace of God by disobedience (Heb.10:26-31).
(2Peter 2:20-22) (1Cor.9:27)

2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
(2Tim. 2:17-19)

 

[justbyfaith]

I know you can come up with more than one verse to constitute a key theme of an entire 5-chapter epistle.

I propose that the early Christian church was not obsessed with selfish pursuits like "Am I, Oh, am I really saved?" but that they were more captivated with Christ's matchless, unfathomable love toward sinful, rebellious human beings, and that the Sovereign of the Universe could lower Himself to actually become one of us and even give Himself for and to us to rescue us from our quarantine of sin-sickness unto death.

The subject of eternal security is of importance to the soul.

Many, if they do not find that God would have the ability to keep them, may not ever embark upon the journey of seeking to be born again.

 

[Mr C]

...I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,... (Rev. 3:5).

The above statement implies the Lord will blot out some names from the book of life.

Why were those names in the book of life?

B/c they were saved.

Who placed those names in the book of life?

The Lord did.

 

[BarneyFife]

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Forever? It doesn't say.

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

It means other men. How could they pluck themselves out of His hand?

If it's okay with you, I'm no interloper, but my assurance of abiding in Christ has got to be (and is) a lot stronger than that.

 

[justbyfaith]

The Lord removing salvation from someone because of their disobedience would qualify as a "breach of promise"...Numbers 14:34.

 

[BarneyFife]

Many, if they do not find that God would have the ability to keep them, may not ever embark upon the journey of seeking to be born again.

So we're dictating terms to God now? Sorry, Lord, they won't buy it?

 

[justbyfaith]

John 5:24 (kjv)...

Jhn 5:24, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Breaking it down, this is an absolute promise of the Lord in holy scripture, that is conditional.

The condition: to hear Jesus' words and believe on Him who sent Him.

The promise, threefold:

1) they have everlasting life. This is life that can never come to an end.

2) they shall not come into condemnation. This is Jesus using absolute terminology.

3) they have passed from death unto life. Combine this with (1) and they have passed from death unto everlasting life.

These promises are established in the believer's life from the moment of first faith.

 

[marks]

I know you can come up with more than one verse to constitute a key theme of an entire 5-chapter epistle.

I propose that the early Christian church was not obsessed with selfish pursuits like "Am I, Oh, am I really saved?" but that they were more captivated with Christ's matchless, unfathomable love toward sinful, rebellious human beings, and that the Sovereign of the Universe could lower Himself to actually become one of us and even give Himself for and to us to rescue us from our quarantine of sin-sickness unto death.

That's something I was reflecting on not too long ago, that these early believers heard the Gospel, and really received it, lock stock and barrel, and went their way rejoicing. We've had 2000 years to dissect and analyze and compartmentalize and formalize and divide over.

I'm so glad that God saw fit to give to me the bulk of a teaching they only had a small slice of! I need it to get back to the real Gospel, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself. And having been reconciled by his death, shall we not be much more saved by his life? And that's it. We have been reconciled by Jesus' death, and now we are saved by His life. He has given life to us.

To receive His love and forgiveness with joy, and return to fellowship with Him. I think that this is clearly God's desire for us.

Much love!

 

[farouk]

Forever? It doesn't say.

It means other men. How could they pluck themselves out of His hand?

If it's okay with you, I'm no interloper, but my assurance of abiding in Christ has got to be (and is) a lot stronger than that.

Frankly by God's grace I rely on the hand of the Father and the hand of Son to keep me; I cannot claim anything better; it's wondrous in itself. John 10.27-29:

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

 

[justbyfaith]

Ecc 3:14, I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

Salvation is the gift of the Lord, Romans 6:23.

And the gifts and the calling of God are without repentance, Romans 11:29.

 

[BarneyFife]

The Lord removing salvation from someone because of their disobedience would qualify as a "breach of promise"...Numbers 14:34.

That's quite a stretch. Besides, God doesn't remove salvation. He's not willing that any should perish. He simply allows them to go, just as he allows many to reject Him from the start. Not so complicated. God is a Great Lover of religious liberty issues.

 

[BarneyFife]

Frankly by God's grace I rely on the hand of the Father and the hand of Son to keep me; I cannot claim anything better; it's wondrous in itself. John 10.27-29:

But aren't you claiming a little more than that when you say can never be lost under any circumstances. (Please forgive me if I have you confused with someone else.)

 

[justbyfaith]

That's quite a stretch. Besides, God doesn't remove salvation. He's not willing that any should perish. He simply allows them to go, just as he allows many to reject Him from the start. Not so complicated. God is a Great Lover of religious liberty issues.

No one who has the fear of the LORD in them will walk away from Him. Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv), Psalms 19:9 (kjv).

You were saying that someone with faith can lose their salvation because of disobedience.

However, our position in the Lord is not based on our keeping the law, our performance, or our not sinning against Him (Galatians 2:16). It is based on faith.

Truly, if we are disobedient, it can result in losing faith because we have hardened our hearts through the deceitfulness of sin.

But disobedience, in and of itself, does not place a man outside of the sphere of God's grace.

Most if not all Christians are disobedient at specific times of their lives. This is why we can only be saved through the grace of God.

 

[farouk]

But aren't you claiming a little more than that when you say can never be lost under any circumstances. (Please forgive me if I have you confused with someone else.)

Again, I rest on what John 10.27-29 clearly says:

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

 

[farouk]

PS: These verses are so self-evident that there is no point in going round in circles.