Grace vs Legalism

[Candidus]

It is speaking of a lifestyle of sin.

(1Jn 1:6-9) sets the tone for the whole book.

1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

There is no imaginary "lifestyle" that sets the tone. "He who is born of God doth not commit sin." Period. You might as well just say the theology of the Bible is that God will weigh your good against your bad, and that will determine the outcome of your destiny.

 

[2 Chr. 34:19]

Justification is the erasing of our sin(s) replaced with Christ's constant righteousness (righteous acts or works) throughout his eathly sojourn, nothing more, nothing less. It is a zero-sum transaction, if you will. We agree to trade our bad stuff for His good stuff. Period.

And for every eight people who make this statement, you'll get nine different explanations.

People base their doctrines almost entirely on the writings of Paul. Just do a scan of the board some time and you'll see what I mean (if you haven't already). Much of what he writes is very straightforward. But much of it isn't. The folks he wrote to were in the midst of a philosophical renaissance unlike the world has ever seen. So even the lower classes of the Northern and Eastern Mediterranean possessed very sophisticated (confused/over-complicated) knowledge and thought processes. Paul was an extremely intelligent and very highly-educated person. He was especially qualified to deal with their sophistry. Peter warns in his 2nd epistle that Paul writes some things that are hard to understand. Yet we of the modern and post-modern era largely believe ourselves to be above this pitfall. He even goes so far as to say that untaught and unstable folks twist his writings to cause their own destruction. That's pretty heavy talk. Most people think that untaught and unstable means stupid and crazy. I don't think so. I think it means inexperienced and not well-established in the faith. And if other parts of Scripture are to be believed, we could probably all of us put ourselves into at least 1 of those 2 categories if we're being humble enough. My attitude is that over the years I've learned just enough to realize that I don't know much of anything compared to what is yet available for me to learn from the bible. So I tread very lightly where there are arguments over what Paul is saying in a given passage. Just my two cents' worth.

Thankyou! My hubby thinks that people idolise Paul (like mariology) and people ‘get’ Paul out of pride, as he was a ‘doctor’ of The Law-that’s his opinion. Don’t shoot the messenger

 

[amadeus]

You need to put my question to CL in context of her views.

This question does not represent anything I think, it's designed to elict what she thinks.

That was this?

Can a Spirit filled Christian commit murder?

My answer would be, yes, by quenching the Spirit in him, which was the reason I posted that verse and asked my question. I believe that a Spirit filled person has now what Adam and Eve had then.

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Gen 2:7

God sent Jesus to provide each of us the opportunity to do better than Adam and Eve did that first time around. Like them now we have been given the opportunity [possibility?] to obey God, but like them it is also possible for us to disobey Him. Would not committing murder be disobeying God?

That a person would might choose to disobey God is indeed, as I see it, appears to be the heighth of foolishness, but men have always been foolish creatures. God made us unable to do good all alone. To obey Him and to trust in Him was our opportunity to really become good as God is good. Yet, when so much around us also looks good, is it surprising that so many would choose to walk according to what their eyes of flesh could see rather than by faith? Do we really love God? Enough to live always by faith which would allow us to walk with no sin at all?

Would you and others here stand in judgment against @CharismaticLady who claims something you cannot see in yourself?

"When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." Mark 19:26

Now don't deny someone else's testimony simply because you have not attained to it. People say that everyone sins... after they have receive the Holy Ghost, but is it not a lack of faith that allows them to follow their own ways to sin rather than the Way of Jesus who never sinned?

No, don't ask me that question. God knows my heart and let us leave it at that. Too many people always doubting @CharismaticLady
because of their doubts about themselves or what some person or persons have told them...

 

[marks]

You throw "legalism" at me thinking it will stick.

That wasn't meant directed to you. Sorry if it came across that way.

Much love!

 

[BarneyFife]

Justification by faith is also seen in the Old Testament.

There's no other kind.

 

[marks]

No, don't ask me that question. God knows my heart and let us leave it at that. Too many people always doubting @CharismaticLady
because of their doubts about themselves or what some person or persons have told them...

Hi amadeus,

Not to worry, I'm not planning to. And the only reason I asked that of CL was in the interest of making a doctrinal distinction.

Now don't deny someone else's testimony simply because you have not attained to it.

There's simply more to this than that.

Would you and others here stand in judgment against @CharismaticLady who claims something you cannot see in yourself?

I don't talk about this much. God did the same with me. I know that life. It springs from a gift of faith. Knowing nothing against myself, and walking in the Spirit 24/7. And after some time, I realized, that as God had simply "touched me and made it so", that gave me nothing to help others with. Just hoping that He might do the same for them. I want to help others. I asked Him for the understanding of how this life is so I could help others to understand, to be able to walk this way. I was not expecting what He did. He returned me to my previous state. And then I had to learn how it is we are to walk in that kind of faith.

And He has shown me. @Behold has seen it too.

I'm not here to stand in judgment. I don't actually question whether CL is as she says, but I do question her understanding of it. I'm not judging her. What I fervently want is to show the real life in Christ.

Life in Christ not in flunking yourself because you see some sin, and it's not in vaunting yourself because you don't. It's got nothing to do with either of those. We aren't even fit to judge such things.

Faith, and not works, defines us. Who can say, you are not a Christian because you've committed a sin? You remember, by CL's terms, I'm not a true Christian, I do not know God, I do not have true faith, because I commit sins. That's legalism. And that's what I oppose.

The smoking wick, he will not extinguish, and the bruised flax he will not break.

Much love!

 

[marks]

but there is one doctrine of his that makes grace a license to sin.

Quote him please.

 

[marks]

Along as we don't cross over into Hellenistic (Greek) Dualism, I'm fine.

Me, I'm all about the Bible!

 

[farouk]

I see Him saying put off self, and put on Christ...

@Waiting on him "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (Galatians 2.20)

 

[amadeus]

Hi amadeus,

Not to worry, I'm not planning to. And the only reason I asked that of CL was in the interest of making a doctrinal distinction.

I am not wanting to get into that.

There's simply more to this than that.

I hear and leave it to you and anyone God wants to be in it.

I don't talk about this much. God did the same with me. I know that life. It springs from a gift of faith. Knowing nothing against myself, and walking in the Spirit 24/7. And after some time, I realized, that as God had simply "touched me and made it so", that gave me nothing to help others with. Just hoping that He might do the same for them. I want to help others. I asked Him for the understanding of how this life is so I could help others to understand, to be able to walk this way. I was not expecting what He did. He returned me to my previous state. And then I had to learn how it is we are to walk in that kind of faith.

Give God the glory!

And He has shown me. @Behold has seen it too.

I'm not here to stand in judgment. I don't actually question whether CL is as she says, but I do question her understanding of it. I'm not judging her. What I fervently want is to show the real life in Christ.

I can only speak what I hear and follow Him always. Sometimes I am given an understanding for me alone. I have no doubt that God does this with others as well. What is the whole picture? God sees it! We see what He shows us. Some on this forum probably would be critical, at least in their minds, of this discussion of such things.

Life in Christ not in flunking yourself because you see some sin, and it's not in vaunting yourself because you don't. It's got nothing to do with either of those. We aren't even fit to judge such things.

This is why the judgement is not ours to make! Some people do want to insist!

Faith, and not works, defines us. Who can say, you are not a Christian because you've committed a sin? You remember, by CL's terms, I'm not a true Christian, I do not know God, I do not have true faith, because I commit sins. That's legalism. And that's what I oppose.

The smoking wick, he will not extinguish, and the bruised flax he will not break.

Much love!

I won't judge you my friend. I will say that some things in my mind and/or heart I can scarcely understand and certainly cannot share on this thread. Am I special? No more so than every one of His children is special to God. Just talking about it will sometimes tangle me up because the "pride of life" is Not completely gone in me.
Be blessed! The end for me is not yet!

 

[marks]

I can only speak what I hear and follow Him always. Sometimes I am given an understanding for me alone.

Amen!

 

[justbyfaith]

Once again, do you not believe that God can cleanse us from ALL Sin? The verse before, and the verse after 1:8 both claim that this is what God does if we confess our sins. If ALL does not mean ALL, what sins is the Atonement of Christ too weak to cleanse us from?

Consider what it says in Matthew 8:1-4. Jesus told the leper, who was completely cleansed, to tell no man, but go and show yourself to the priests.

So, it is not that I believe that a man cannot be completely cleansed so that he has no sin; but that if he says that he has no sin, he is deceiving himself and the truth is not in him.

Consider Isaiah 42:19 (kjv), John 9:41 (kjv), and Job 9:21 (kjv).

If someone is truly cleansed from all sin, they are blind to the fact of the matter and therefore would never say that they have no sin.

And also, if anyone is truly cleansed from all sin and knows it, the truth of Ephesians 2:8-9 is not in them if they are prone to boasting about it; and if they actually violate this passage and boast that they have no sin, they are sinning against Ephesians 2:9 and therefore in saying that they have no sin, they are also deceiving themselves.

People who have been truly cleansed do not go around saying, "I am cleansed". They show it by their lives. They may say to someone, "I believe that God can cleanse you."
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Run along now, as you have issues.

Run along now, as you have issues.

Run along now, as you have issues.

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Ive explained this 40 times to justbyfaith, and he's not able to understand it.
So, i'll try you.

If im preaching to a group, and there are a few in the group who do not believe that sin exists, or do not believe they are sinners..
And they interrupt me and say....>"there is no such thing as sin, sin does not exist, we are not sinners".

Then i say....>"listen, if WE say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves.....etc".

So, i just said. "WE"< yet, im not talking about me, am i? Im only talking about THEM.... yet i said "we".
This is what Preachers to...they say "we" when they are talking about the group.

If you can see this, then find justbyfaith and try to get him to understand it, as he can't for the 7 weeks obo that ive been explaining this to him in many Threads.
Good luck.

I understand perfectly that a minister is trained to say "we" when referring to other people. But you do not understand the reason for it. It is because the minister is not supposed to point the finger at his audience and say that they are in a certain plight that he himself is not also in. John, in saying that we all have sin, in not excluding himself, he really is not excluding himself. It is not just because he has been trained not to point the finger; but it is also based in the reality of the fact that we are all in the same plight. If John had wanted to say that not everyone has sin; and if he himself had no sin, he had the perfect opportunity to relay that as a truth. He could have said, "If you say that you have no sin, you deceive yourself, and the truth is not in you." At least then, your pov would have more validity. But as it is, John included himself in the grouping of those who would be deceiving themselves if they were to say that they have no sin. If John was denying indwelling sin in his private moments, he is saying here that he himself, is deceiving himself, and the truth is not in him. I don't think that this is the case.

He's not.
He's also not a sinning apostle.

Of course not. Indwelling sin does not have to be obeyed; because it can be rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any dominion over us (Romans 6:14) in our behaviour.

The carnal christian, who is unable to handle "the meat of the word" and has to be fed the milk of the word, cannot yet SEE themselves as anything other then a SINNER.... a saved sinner.
And because of this they believe they are a sinner who is saved, vs being a born again SAINT and Child of God who is "the righteousness of God".

It is a trustworthy saying and worthy of all acceptation that each and every one of us is the chief of sinners (as we each one owns that saying for ourselves). We are all of us sinners in that we all have indwelling sin.

If we are born of God and abiding, we are not sinners in that we "do not" and "cannot" commit sin (1 John 3:9) as those who are born of God; and in that we "sin not" (1 John 3:6) as those who are abiding in Christ.

the same way youi became trapped in Hebrews, and can't get out.

I read through the book of Hebrews every Saturday.

I also read through every other epistle throughout the course of an entire week.

What is it that Behold teaches? I can put his central theme into a couple of sentences, accurately.

Yes, please do that, @marks. I'm interested in your synopsis.

 

[marks]

Yes, please do that, @marks. I'm interested in your synopsis.

We've transacted a trade with Jesus, our sin for His righteousness. So this is our new reality. He has our sin, and we have His righteousness.

If you don't believe it, you won't walk in His righteousness. But when you do, you will.

Much love!

@Behold

 

[justbyfaith]

We've transacted a trade with Jesus, our sin for His righteousness. So this is our new reality. He has our sin, and we have His righteousness.

If you don't believe it, you won't walk in His righteousness. But when you do, you will.

Much love!

@Behold

This is also what I teach to a certain extent.

However, I do not deny the reality of indwelling sin (1 John 1:8, Galatians 3:22, Romans 3:23) in my teaching.

 

[marks]

This is also what I teach to a certain extent.

However, I do not deny the reality of indwelling sin (1 John 1:8, Galatians 3:22, Romans 3:23) in my teaching.

You see "indwelling sin" differently than I do, and as does @Behold . It's not a matter of denying a doctrine, it's understanding it differently.

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

You see "indwelling sin" differently than I do, and as does @Behold . It's not a matter of denying a doctrine, it's understanding it differently.

Much love!

Please explain, then, how you understand this doctrine and how it does not contradict the literal interpretation of 1 John 1:8.

I do not accept the idea that when John said "we" he really meant "you". I take the holy scriptures at face value.

 

[marks]

Please explain, then, how you understand this doctrine and how it does not contradict the literal interpretation of 1 John 1:8.

I do not accept the idea that when John said "we" he really meant "you". I take the holy scriptures at face value.

1 John 1:9 is about unbelievers becoming Christians, not the way for Christians to become re-reconciled to God. This is the only way the passage truly harmonizes with both it's immediate context, and the rest of the Bible. And there really is no issue of this usage of "we". He's speaking to a general audience in an inclusive way.

If we are not Christians, then we won't understand the correct meaning of Scripture. This statement is true, and has particular application, but you see that while I say, If we, I'm not saying that you or I are not Christians.

And where is there room in the Biblical teaching for "re-reconcliation" to God? Having been reconciled to Him before we were even born, why does this need to be repeated?

IMO, anyway.

Either you are forgiven, and you have life and peace with God, or you are not, and you remain dead, and under condemnation.

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

And if we do not walk in the light, then the blood of Jesus IS NOT cleansing us from sin. Which means we remain in our sin. And remaining in our sin means our faith is meaningless, and we remain in death (1Cor15).

You appear to remain convinced that the Christian must confess new sins to receive new forgiveness, and I am convinced that not only is this not what this passage is teaching, but that this is antithetical to the Gospel of Grace.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Please explain, then, how you understand this doctrine and how it does not contradict the literal interpretation of 1 John 1:8.

I do not accept the idea that when John said "we" he really meant "you". I take the holy scriptures at face value.

Are you the child of Adam? Are you the child of God? Are you both, a mix of light and darkness?

What did Paul mean when he wrote, therefore, it is no longer I that sin, it's the sin that lives in me? The flesh lusts against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh, so you cannot do what you want? What is the flesh that lusts against the spirit, and what is the spirit that lusts against the flesh? These two. Who am I?

I am the spirit, but my flesh wants to rule. I am a new creation, but the body still serves the law of sin and death.

As long as you identify yourself with "no longer I that sin, but sin that lives in me", that's going to be an issue I think.

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

1 John 1:9 is about unbelievers becoming Christians, not the way for Christians to become re-reconciled to God. This is the only way the passage truly harmonizes with both it's immediate context, and the rest of the Bible. And there really is no issue of this usage of "we".

IMO, anyway.

Either you are forgiven, and you have life and peace with God, or you are not, and you remain dead, and under condemnation.

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

And if we do not walk in the light, then the blood of Jesus IS NOT cleansing us from sin. Which means we remain in our sin. And remaining in our sin means our faith is meaningless, and we remain in death (1Cor15).

You appear to remain convinced that the Christian must confess new sins to receive new forgiveness, and I am convinced that not only is this not what this passage is teaching, but that this is antithetical to the Gospel of Grace.

Much love!

I do believe that we need to remain transparent before the Lord in order for the blood of Jesus to "continually cleanse us from all sin."

Jesus washed the disciples' feet in John chapter 13; and this represents the fact that we get our feet dirty from walking in the world. It is not our whole body that needs to be washed; but our feet need to be washed.

 

[justbyfaith]

Are you the child of Adam? Are you the child of God? Are you both, a mix of light and darkness?

What did Paul mean when he wrote, therefore, it is no longer I that sin, it's the sin that lives in me? The flesh lusts against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh, so you cannot do what you want? What is the flesh that lusts against the spirit, and what is the spirit that lusts against the flesh? These two. Who am I?

I am the spirit, but my flesh wants to rule. I am a new creation, but the body still serves the law of sin and death.

As long as you identify yourself with "no longer I that sin, but sin that lives in me", that's going to be an issue I think.

Much love!

Paul wrote that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwells no good thing.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Being born again of the Holy Spirit does not change the fact that we have been born of the flesh, first.