Grace vs Legalism

[amadeus]

No, to turn the UNsaved in the Church into the actually SAVED. Because of the OSAS liberal message, there are many who believe that the sins they are committing, are covered by the blood of Jesus. Anytime you hear the word "covered" in the salvation message, that is a false doctrine. Jesus literally TAKES AWAY our desire to sin through the baptism of the Holy Spirit...

An additional word on this covering thing. The first mention of a covering would probably be in Genesis when Adam and Eve felt the need to sew together fig leaves so they would not be embarrassed by their own nakedness. God improved on that covering, but the need for the covering was still there. Before they disobeyed they were not embarrassed and seemingly did not notice any lack of a covering.

Even the skin covering from God was to be a temporary thing until the realization of the Reality where again the one with the New Life would not notice or see anything to embarrass him. This is, I believe, what you describe as "taking away our desire to sin through the baptism of the Holy Spirit". How much do we love God? How much do we love our old selves of flesh and the temptations that came with the package we had when born to our natural mothers.

Jesus brought something better, but most believers stop short as if it was all done before it really was. Have all of us received all the good, all of the Life, that Jesus brought for us? James speaks clearly about double mindedness and Paul also writes about it although calling it by a different name [old man and new man].

People may read the verses and conclude because I guess because of the teachings of some church group or some man or even their own natural parents that they are already beyond that. The time for realizing the Reality is now...
before there is no more time.

 

[amadeus]

Are you asking, does anyone have a true assurance that they have eternal life?

Much love!

The question would be... Do we live by faith or by knowledge? Remember then what faith is:

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Heb 11:1

"But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith" Gal 3:11

But many people are not satisfied with living by faith from moment to moment until the end of their course. They want to sit back in their easy chair now... and therefore are quick to embrace teachings that are not of faith.

Never ending Life is for someone who overcomes it all like Jesus did. Has not God provided everything that is needed to do just that?

 

[marks]

I usually try to do that, but sometimes even the second time through I miss what I missed. Later when someone has responded to one of my posts and I reread it then it hits me between the eyes just how nonsensical it was because of typos....

Just so!!

 

[Waiting on him]

No, to turn the UNsaved in the Church into the actually SAVED. Because of the OSAS liberal message, there are many who believe that the sins they are committing, are covered by the blood of Jesus. Anytime you hear the word "covered" in the salvation message, that is a false doctrine. Jesus literally TAKES AWAY our desire to sin through the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

It is the old nature, the "flesh" that sins. But the Spirit of God takes us OUT of the flesh, and into the Spirit nature called the divine nature, Romans 8:9 and 2 Peter 1:2-11.

Knowing that I was still in the old nature for the first 30 years of my life going to church, it opened my eyes when I was literally born again and filled with the Spirit of God on Feb. 9, 1977 around 8:00 pm at a Wednesday night prayer meeting, that completely changed me from having NO POWER over committing willful intentional sins, to having no desire to do anything the Spirit pulled me away from.

My ministry is from home. My only outlet is writing books to Christians, and on these forums. So my ministry is not to the unsaved of the world, but to the unsaved, AS I HAD BEEN THOSE 30 YEARS, IN THE CHURCH.

It is the FALSE ASSURANCE of the unsaved in the Church, that I am so afraid for. Can you see the answer to you question? My motive is not to boast in my own salvation, but to show that the Word of God about having power over sin IS TRUE. We all need to judge ourselves, and not listen to some of the very vocal false prophets on here, that many agree with - YIKES! And you should know who I'm talking about, as you have liked his message.

This only seems to be some sort of mental gymnastics to me.

Scripture states that only what appears to you to be sin is sin, but what if I view you or your life and I see sin, what then?

 

[marks]

Never ending Life is for someone who overcomes it all like Jesus did. Has not God provided everything that is needed to do just that?

He has given us all we need for life and godliness in His great and precious promises. So we are to add to our faith, virtue, and knowledge, and so forth . . . which reminds me . . . this was something I learned from a couple of @Episkopos 's posts, about virtue, not moral exellence, per se, though I believe that is involved just the same, more, valor. He had a lot to say that filled out the meaning better.

Maybe this valor is the boldness, the setting of our heart towards God to carry this faith into our lives, to see His great and precious promises fulfilled in me.

Yes, I absolutely agree! God has given us all we need!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Scripture states that only what appears to you to be sin is sin, but what if I view you or your life and I see sin, what then?

This is I think a real issue in living as it were according to the knowledge of good and evil. We should be letting that go in favor of living according to the life of Christ, living in me.

Another thought I have on this is, either there is a moral relativism, as one sees that this is not sin, and another sees that this is sin, and for them it is so, because that's how they see it, or, there is separate standard one or both are not seeing, that delineates what is and is not sin.

In these passages, that which is not of faith is sin, if you know the good to do and you don't, that's sin, you could say they show moral relativism, and it looks like that in a sense.

But on the other hand, the standard, as it seems to me, isn't about the individual actions, instead, what's behind them. Like asking what sort of people are we that we do and don't do certain things?

And here it seems the standard is that we act in accordance with our faith, and with our own understanding of what is good. And who else can know what's in our minds? God alone can judge.

Judging according to the things we see is the wrong kind of judgment. It CANNOT take into account the heart. Not even we are able to do that even within ourselves.

Much love!

 

[Waiting on him]

This is I think a real issue in living as it were according to the knowledge of good and evil. We should be letting that go in favor of living according to the life of Christ, living in me.

Another thought I have on this is, either there is a moral relativism, as one sees that this is not sin, and another sees that this is sin, and for them it is so, because that's how they see it, or, there is separate standard one or both are not seeing, that delineates what is and is not sin.

In these passages, that which is not of faith is sin, if you know the good to do and you don't, that's sin, you could say they show moral relativism, and it looks like that in a sense.

But on the other hand, the standard, as it seems to me, isn't about the individual actions, instead, what's behind them. Like asking what sort of people are we that we do and don't do certain things?

And here it seems the standard is that we act in accordance with our faith, and with our own understanding of what is good. And who else can know what's in our minds? God alone can judge.

Judging according to the things we see is the wrong kind of judgment. It CANNOT take into account the heart. Not even we are able to do that even within ourselves.

Much love!

Agreed, though we can see the product of sin, anything that is contrary to the will of God will bring calamity. I believe that this is guaranteed. No flesh will not inherit, nor will glory in His presence. I believe it’s when we take our focus of of His righteousness alone which is in Christ, and begin to focus on the workings of our flesh we enter into an ideology founded in our own righteousness, which in my opinion is the most dangerous sin. Self deception.

 

[mjrhealth]

No, to turn the UNsaved in the Church into the actually SAVED. Because of the OSAS liberal message, there are many who believe that the sins they are committing, are covered by the blood of Jesus. Anytime you hear the word "covered" in the salvation message, that is a false doctrine. Jesus literally TAKES AWAY our desire to sin through the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Are not yours, did not Jesus die for all the sins of mankind once and forever, even you took time to get it, so does that make everyone else worse than you. It may be nice that you are "perfected" but Jesus still has a lot of work to do to perfect others, doesnt need "guilt" thrown into it which comes from satan not Jesus.

As for religion 100% agree, done more damage than anything.

 

[justbyfaith]

Anytime you hear the word "covered" in the salvation message, that is a false doctrine.

Then Paul was preaching false doctrine in Romans 4:7. Perhaps you should take some scissors and cut that verse out of your Bible.

What is this "body of sin"?

It is the encapsulation of that which is sinful within us.

WE are not our bodies, which are corrupt flesh.

I beg to differ. In Romans 7:18 we find that in me (that is, in my flesh) there dwells no good thing.

 

[BarneyFife]

This only seems to be some sort of mental gymnastics to me.

Scripture states that only what appears to you to be sin is sin, but what if I view you or your life and I see sin, what then?

Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin. (James 4:17)
This means exactly what it says, no more, no less.

But to God, all sin is sin. And all sin must be disposed of eventually. No sin could ever have been committed without the immediate expiration of the offender's life, had not Christ pledged Himself to be the surety of probation. We have no idea what sin cost God's dear Son. If we did, we would cling to Him all the more tenaciously and thus guard more carefully the avenues of the adversary to our souls.

 

[justbyfaith]

It should be clear that the scripture has concluded all to be under sin in order that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe (Galatians 3:22).

All are under sin. This word "all" means "all"...which includes the ones who are sanctified wholly.

Those who have repented of committing sins and do not commit sin any longer, still do have sin indwelling them.

We are able to repent and have this repentance be practically viable so that after repenting of specific sins, we don't commit those sins any longer.

However, there is a sense in which as long as we are in these vile bodies (Philippians 3:21 (kjv)), we will have indwelling sin to have to deal with.

We are born of the flesh; and therefore we are made of flesh (John 3:6). The flesh is sinful by nature.

It can be crucified, so that indwelling sin does not any longer have dominion over a man (Romans 6:14).

In this, indwelling sin is not eradicated; but it is mortified / put to death.

So we are enabled to walk, practically, in newness of life.

 

[Waiting on him]

It should be clear that the scripture has concluded all to be under sin in order that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe (Galatians 3:22).

All are under sin. This word "all" means "all"...which includes the ones who are sanctified wholly.

Those who have repented of committing sins and do not commit sin any longer, still do have sin indwelling them.

We are able to repent and have this repentance be practically viable so that after repenting of specific sins, we don't commit those sins any longer.

However, there is a sense in which as long as we are in these vile bodies (Philippians 3:21 (kjv)), we will have indwelling sin to have to deal with.

We are born of the flesh; and therefore we are made of flesh (John 3:6). The flesh is sinful by nature.

It can be crucified, so that indwelling sin does not any longer have dominion over a man (Romans 6:14).

In this, indwelling sin is not eradicated; but it is mortified / put to death.

So we are enabled to walk, practically, in newness of life.

Um,,,, you just said walking in newness of life is in our own power.

 

[justbyfaith]

Um,,,, you just said walking in newness of life is in our own power.

Sorry, I forgot to add:

Rom 8:13, For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

 

[BarneyFife]

It should be clear that the scripture has concluded all to be under sin in order that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe (Galatians 3:22).

All are under sin. This word "all" means "all"...which includes the ones who are sanctified wholly.

Those who have repented of committing sins and do not commit sin any longer, still do have sin indwelling them.

The context of verse 22 tells a different story. All that need be done is to read it carefully.

Galatians 3
21Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Sin is sin.

We tell atheists they should believe something they can't see.
But we won't stoop to do the same thing when it comes to sanctification.
The fact that there appear to be no sinless people doesn't make it impossible.
The Bible suggests that Enoch managed to get so close to God that He took him.

 

[justbyfaith]

I don't see the context of Galatians 3:22 telling a different story. I believe that it is a first rule of hermeneutics that the context of any singular verse will never nullify the plain meaning of that verse. Because there are no contradictions in holy scripture.

That being said, the fact that we are no longer under the law does not mean that we are no longer under sin. Yes, the law is what makes sin imputable to a man. But even if sin is not imputed, it remains that it is a reality. For death reigned from Adam to Moses and there was no law to impute sin to the human race during that time. But why did people die? Because the wages of sin is death. I conclude that sin was a part of the human race even though there was no law to point out that man was sinful. Sin is not imputed where there is no law. But there is still sin.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Scripture states that only what appears to you to be sin is sin, but what if I view you or your life and I see sin, what then?

I agree.

James 5:19-20
19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

 

[CharismaticLady]

@Waiting on him

What I want to know from you is what would you do to save your brethren? Nothing, because they are saved no matter what they do? (Do you believe in OSAS)

 

[CharismaticLady]

Have you ever sat down and examined all the uses of sarx - flesh - in the NT? I think this is a very revealing study, to see exactly how the Bible consistently uses that word.

Much love!

What I'm more interested in is how Paul was using it in Romans 8.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I usually try to do that, but sometimes even the second time through I miss what I missed. Later when someone has responded to one of my posts and I reread it then it hits me between the eyes just how nonsensical it was because of typos....

Right, and me with a head-ache. I've got a brain tumor that I didn't think was growing. Maybe it is about time to have another MRI.

 

[Waiting on him]

@Waiting on him

What I want to know from you is what would you do to save your brethren? Nothing, because they are saved no matter what they do? (Do you believe in OSAS)

Well, if there my brethren, then Christ has already saved them. As far as the OSAS goes my answer would be not all who say they are saved are saved possibly, but I do not believe salvation is something I maintain. I believe it to be Christ only it originates with and concludes with Him.