Bible alone?

[BreadOfLife]

Where do you find the term Sacred Tradition of the Canon of Scripture? A tradition of any kind is still a tradition, as "a rose by any other name..."

Any Canon is NOT the authority. Yourself admitted the Holy Spirit is the Author. If God is the Author of Holy Writ, don't you think He will protect it?!!!.

To God Be The Glory

Where do you find the term "Trinity" in the Bible?
Where do you find the term "Canon of Scripture" in the Bible?
Where do you find the term "Bible" in the Bible?

Those terms are Traditions of the Church.

The Canon of of Scripture is ALSO Sacred Tradition of the Church because it is NOT taught in Scripture itself. In other words - the Bible does NOT contain a listing of the Books that belong in it.
This was decided by the Holy Spirit speaking through His CHURCH.

 

[JunChosen]

Mt 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Matthew 18:17 is speaking about WITNESSING.

"But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established."

2 Corinthians 13:1; 1 Timothy 5:19; Hebrews 10:28.

To God Be The Glory

 

[BreadOfLife]

Matthew 18:17 is speaking about WITNESSING.

"But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established."

2 Corinthians 13:1; 1 Timothy 5:19; Hebrews 10:28.

To God Be The Glory

Sort of . . .
Matt.16:15-18 is partially about witnessing - but is about discipline and Church Authority.

Matt. 18:15-18
“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, TELL IT TO THE CHURCH. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

 

[JunChosen]

Where do you find the term "Trinity" in the Bible?
Where do you find the term "Canon of Scripture" in the Bible?
Where do you find the term "Bible" in the Bible?

Those terms are Traditions of the Church.

The Canon of of Scripture is ALSO Sacred Tradition of the Church because it is NOT taught in Scripture itself. In other words - the Bible does NOT contain a listing of the Books that belong in it.
This was decided by the Holy Spirit speaking through His CHURCH.

The term Bible may not be in Scripture so are the words Omniscient and Omnipresent, but you can't deny God is most powerful and almighty, and everywhere present. These are principles NOT tradition.

NOT for the Catholic church but for those whom Christ died and born at different times in history.

To God Be The Glory

 

[JunChosen]

Sort of . . .
Matt.16:15-18 is partially about witnessing - but is about discipline and Church Authority.

Your knowledge and understanding of the passages above came from your church. Your church has a different agenda in that your church believes it is the pillar and ground of truth, instead of what Jesus has declared that He is the way, the truth, and the life. You people like to take away the glory bestowed

You and the Catholics would like to think your church is the authority! Yet Paul was really speaking of the church Christ built by going to the cross. Did your patron saint Peter give his life on behalf of the CC?

To God Be The Glory

 

[BreadOfLife]

The term Bible may not be in Scripture so are the words Omniscient and Omnipresent, but you can't deny God is most powerful and almighty, and everywhere present. These are principles NOT tradition.

NOT for the Catholic church but for those whom Christ died and born at different times in history.

To God Be The Glory

I never denied that God is almighty.
The Scriptures tell us that mush so you are correct in saying that this is not a matter of Tradition.

I stated very plainly that the Canon of Scripture IS part of Sacred Tradition because it is NOT taught in the Bible.
And yes, it WAS the Catholic Church who declared the Canon - and NOT any Protestant denomination.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Your knowledge and understanding of the passages above came from your church. Your church has a different agenda in that your church believes it is the pillar and ground of truth, instead of what Jesus has declared that He is the way, the truth, and the life. You people like to take away the glory bestowed

You and the Catholics would like to think your church is the authority! Yet Paul was really speaking of the church Christ built by going to the cross. Did your patron saint Peter give his life on behalf of the CC?

To God Be The Glory

Your statement in RED doesn't make ANY sense at all.
Here is what the Bible teaches . . .

- Jesus is Truth itself (John 14:6).
- His Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).
- His Church is the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23).
- His Church is the Body of Christ and He is the Head (1 Cor. 12:12-31, Eph. 4:3-6, Col. 1:8).
- Jesus promised His Church that the Holy Spirit would guide her to ALL Truth (John 16:12-15).
- Jesus told the leaders of His Church that WHATEVER THEY BOUND or LOOSED on earth would ALSO be bound and loosed in Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, John 20:21-23).
- His Church has ALL of the Authority of Christ Himself (Luke 10:16).
- Jesus identifies His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:4-5).

Christ's Church isn't "better" than Christ - it IS Christ on earth.

Acts 9:4-5
And falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting ME?” And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting."

 

[JunChosen]

Jesus promised His Church that the Holy Spirit would guide her to ALL Truth

Are you saying the church mentioned above is the CC? God forbid! FYI, there are no perfect churches on this earth.

Jesus told the leaders of His Church that WHATEVER THEY BOUND or LOOSED on earth would ALSO be bound and loosed in Heaven

Most people in Christendom including theologians or Bible scholars do not "get" the gist of "binding and loosing." Is this the reason why the CC have "confessional booths" in their churches so that by confessing their sins to a priest and reciting ten Hail Mary and ten Our Father, their sins are forgiven them? Lol!

This is the danger of having one leader like the pope, when he falls everyone in the congregation falls because what he says is the law.

It is way different in a protestant church where their source is the Bible alone and in its' entirety determines and circumscribes the true Gospel.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Philip James]

FYI, there are no perfect churches on this earth

Are you calling Christ a liar?

Jesus and His Church are One!

This is the danger of having one leader like the pope, when he falls everyone in the congregation falls because what he says is the law.

It is way different in a protestant church where their source is the Bible alone and in its' entirety determines and circumscribes the true Gospel.

You clearly have no idea how the Catholic Church operates.

Unlike some self-appointed 'pastor' who can twist scripture to teach whatever he pleases,

The pope is bound by everything the Church has taught before him...

Were a pope to teach that the Ressurection is a myth (as the moderator of the United Church did in Canada some years ago), or any other heresy, he would automatically excommunicate himself and would no longer be pope!

Peace be with you!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Are you saying the church mentioned above is the CC? God forbid! FYI, there are no perfect churches on this earth.
Most people in Christendom including theologians or Bible scholars do not "get" the gist of "binding and loosing." Is this the reason why the CC have "confessional booths" in their churches so that by confessing their sins to a priest and reciting ten Hail Mary and ten Our Father, their sins are forgiven them? Lol!

If it isn't the Catholic Church, which goes back to the Apostles - which Church is it?
Can you show me th unbroken line of succession of Bishops that stems back from ANY Protestant sect to the Apostles?

I didn't think so . . .

This is the danger of having one leader like the pope, when he falls everyone in the congregation falls because what he says is the law.

It is way different in a protestant church where their source is the Bible alone and in its' entirety determines and circumscribes the true Gospel.

To God Be The Glory

Strange that the Bible itself doesn't prescribe this kind of practical Authority.
The Bible says that the CHURCH is our final earthly Authority (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

 

[JunChosen]

Are you calling Christ a liar?

Jesus and His Church are One!

I was speaking of a physical and NOT a spiritual church.

Next time please ask what the writer has indicated. You are quick to judge. Read Post #168 again and very, very carefully!!!

To God Be The Glory

 

[JunChosen]

If it isn't the Catholic Church, which goes back to the Apostles - which Church is it?
Can you show me th unbroken line of succession of Bishops that stems back from ANY Protestant sect to the Apostles?

I didn't think so . . .

Only because you've NEVER heard the church in Antioch which they were the first Christians! AND, second the church at Troas which gathered on the first day of the week!

Strange that the Bible itself doesn't prescribe this kind of practical Authority.
The Bible says that the CHURCH is our final earthly Authority (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

True. The only church that has the final authority on earth is the church that comprise of all true believers, and these are they that are scattered throughout all the local congregations of the world.

Again I repeat and read my lips (attention @Philip James) there are no perfect churches in this earth!

To God Be The Glory

 

[BreadOfLife]

Only because you've NEVER heard the church in Antioch which they were the first Christians! AND, second the church at Troas which gathered on the first day of the week!

Yup - they were BOTH part of the ONE Catholic Church.
Antioch and Troas are just different places - not different Churches.

True. The only church that has the final authority on earth is the church that comprise of all true believers, and these are they that are scattered throughout all the local congregations of the world.

Again I repeat and read my lips (attention @Philip James) there are no perfect churches in this earth!

To God Be The Glory

Sooooooo, if a Calvinist and a Baptist have an argument about salvation because one believes in Double Predestination and the other doesn't - WHO do they go to to settle the matter, per Matt. 18:15-18.

Let me know when you figure THAT one out . . .


PS - there are no perfect PEOPLE.
The Church IS perfect because it is the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23) - and HE is perfect.

 

[Philip James]

I was speaking of a physical and NOT a spiritual church.

Christ established a visible community through His apostles.

'a city set on a hill cannot be hid'

That community has filled the whole Earth in fulfillment of the scriptures..

As for those who would abandon that community to teach their own traditions John says this:

Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that the antichrist was coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. Thus we know this is the last hour.

They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.

That 'catholic' community is recognizable throughout history since the beginning of the Church.

Personally, i find it hard to understand why anyone would be in a 'church' that admits it's teachings could be wrong..

Peace!

 

[Philip James]

Only because you've NEVER heard the church in Antioch

Hello JunChosen,

In fact we have!

Ignatius, who was ordained by apostles and made bishop of the Church in Antioch says this:

4:1 Be ye careful therefore to observe one eucharist
(for there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ and
one cup unto union in His blood; there is one altar,
as there is one bishop, together with the presbtery
and the deacons my fellow-servants), that whatsoever
ye do, ye may do it after God.

St. Ignatius of Antioch to the Philadelphians (Lightfoot translation)

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Peace be with you!

 

[JunChosen]

Sooooooo, if a Calvinist and a Baptist have an argument about salvation because one believes in Double Predestination and the other doesn't - WHO do they go to to settle the matter, per Matt. 18:15-18.

Let me know when you figure THAT one out . . .

I was not going to respond to any of your comments directed at me any longer because it seems you've "lost it" by pitting your hatred against Calvinism instead of by Scripture. But here I am because of 1Peter 3:15.

Concerning Matthew 18:18 please read Post #132

PS - there are no perfect PEOPLE.
The Church IS perfect because it is the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23) - and HE is perfect.

True, not the physical church either but those whom Christ died for are His "church" which is perfect.

To God Be The Glory

 

[JunChosen]

Personally, i find it hard to understand why anyone would be in a 'church' that admits it's teachings could be wrong..

Show me a perfect church (even at Rome) and I will travel to that country to become a member!

Look at your church before convicting other churches.

I would rather belong to a church that admits to wrong doctrines than in a church whose leaders are hypocrites that when they fall the whole church falls bacause what their leader proclaim is law. Yet, take a good look at what your church leaders have done. It's like Humpty Dumpty. So please, don't speak how great your church is. And, the most grievous part is all your churche members have NOT made a change for correction and have become partakers of their sins also because you believe your pope and leaders can do no wrong! Tell this to the victims!!!

To God Be The Glory

 

[JunChosen]

Ignatius, who was ordained by apostles and made bishop of the Church in Antioch says this:

Who is Ignatius? Show me where in the Bible is his book written at?

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Oh, didn't you know I and the true believers are going to be a part of the Bride? But you are welcome to observe the wedding.

To God Be The Glory

 

[BreadOfLife]

I was not going to respond to any of your comments directed at me any longer because it seems you've "lost it" by pitting your hatred against Calvinism instead of by Scripture. But here I am because of 1Peter 3:15.

Sooooo, because I asked a hypothetical question about TWO completely different types of Protestantism - that YOU couldn't answer, by the way - this means that I "hate" Calvinists??
Talk about a bizarre stretch . . .

Ummmmmmm, how about answering the question?

True, not the physical church either but those whom Christ died for are His "church" which is perfect.
To God Be The Glory

NOT sure what you're trying to say here.
Suffice it to say - Christ and His Church ARE perfect. Not every individual in His Church is perfect.

 

[Illuminator]

Who is Ignatius? Show me where in the Bible is his book written at?

We can give names of "true believers" who upheld authentic beliefs and practices in early church history before there was a Bible. You can't. Their writings are not inspired, but valuable (which your reject or are just plain ignorant of). We can prove the Catholicity of martyrs of the first 3 centuries of Christianity before there was a Bible, whereas you make vague unnamed reference to the "true believers" in a feeble attempt to associate your beliefs with the historic Church, and refuse to admit they were all Catholic, as 1st century St. Ignatius of Antioch clearly was.

Not only have you divorced yourselves from their authentic beliefs and practices (not all explicit in Scripture), you have disowned your elder brother, Judaism, and don't fulfil it in any meaningful sense. So you get tickled with anti-Catholic zingers on "Bible Christian" sites, and run to a forum like this thinking you have something over Catholicism.
"To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant."