Bible alone?

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marksman

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Matthew 18:17 is speaking about WITNESSING.

"But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established."

2 Corinthians 13:1; 1 Timothy 5:19; Hebrews 10:28.

To God Be The Glory
Sorry but you have got that one wrong. This passage is about disciplining a wayward member of the church.
 

marksman

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Only because you've NEVER heard the church in Antioch which they were the first Christians! AND, second the church at Troas which gathered on the first day of the week!



True. The only church that has the final authority on earth is the church that comprise of all true believers, and these are they that are scattered throughout all the local congregations of the world.

Again I repeat and read my lips (attention @Philip James) there are no perfect churches in this earth!

To God Be The Glory
NO church gathered on Sunday because it was a normal work day.
 

marksman

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Show me a perfect church (even at Rome) and I will travel to that country to become a member!

Look at your church before convicting other churches.

I would rather belong to a church that admits to wrong doctrines than in a church whose leaders are hypocrites that when they fall the whole church falls bacause what their leader proclaim is law. Yet, take a good look at what your church leaders have done. It's like Humpty Dumpty. So please, don't speak how great your church is. And, the most grievous part is all your churche members have NOT made a change for correction and have become partakers of their sins also because you believe your pope and leaders can do no wrong! Tell this to the victims!!!

To God Be The Glory
And don't forget the popes way back who had illegitimate children.
 
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marksman

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Hello JunChosen,

In fact we have!

Ignatius, who was ordained by apostles and made bishop of the Church in Antioch says this:

4:1 Be ye careful therefore to observe one eucharist
(for there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ and
one cup unto union in His blood; there is one altar,
as there is one bishop, together with the presbtery
and the deacons my fellow-servants), that whatsoever
ye do, ye may do it after God.

St. Ignatius of Antioch to the Philadelphians (Lightfoot translation)

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Peace be with you!
If Ignatius was born in 50AD, how could he be appointed by the apostles?
 
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Illuminator

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It's not enough to say this verse or that verse proves the Bible is the sole rule of faith. The "Bible alone" Christian (God bless them all) must prove that Tradition and the Magisterium are not needed for sound teaching. Until that happens, the false charge of elevating Tradition above Scripture is just a bunch of fear mongering nonsense. So it becomes paramount to change the meaning of "Tradition" into a dirty word.

tradition-scripture-magisterium.jpg


“All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work” (2 Tim. 3:16–17).

This passage doesn’t teach formal sufficiency, which excludes a binding, authoritative role for Tradition and Church. Protestants extrapolate onto the text what isn’t there. If we look at the overall context of this passage, we can see that Paul makes reference to oral Tradition three times:
2 Timothy 1:13-14
2 Timothy 2:2
2 Timothy 3:14
And to use an analogy, let’s examine a similar passage:

Ephesians 4:11–15

If 2 Timothy 3 proves the sole sufficiency of Scripture, then, by analogy, Ephesians 4 would likewise prove the sufficiency of pastors and teachers for the attainment of Christian perfection. In Ephesians 4, the Christian believer is equipped, built up, brought into unity and mature manhood, and even preserved from doctrinal confusion by means of the teaching function of the Church. This is a far stronger statement of the perfecting of the saints than 2 Timothy 3, yet it does not even mention Scripture.

So if all non-scriptural elements are excluded in 2 Timothy, then, by analogy, Scripture would logically have to be excluded in Ephesians. It is far more reasonable to recognize that the absence of one or more elements in one passage does not mean that they are nonexistent. The Church and Scripture are both equally necessary and important for teaching.
 
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Illuminator

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If Ignatius was born in 50AD, how could he be appointed by the apostles?
We know that Peter and Paul were martyred around 67 A.D., so logically Peter was alive when Ignatius was a young man. He wrote his letters on his way to martyrdom in 110 AD, meaning he was around 60 at the time, long after Peter was dead. Imagine that, a 60 year old man posed such a threat to the mighty pagan Romans that they had to kill him.
 
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Illuminator

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And don't forget the popes way back who had illegitimate children.
And don't forget the hypocrisy and sins of the reformers. It's a stupid nowhere discussion leading into another senseless Catholic bashing thread, more childish "your daddy is uglier then my daddy" arguments.

Most popes were good holy men, and your cheap shot has nothing to to with todays world. We don't deny there were scum bag popes, 10 at the most, but that doesn't disprove the doctrine of the papacy. It proves the gates of hell attacked from within, but did not prevail. Equating impeccability with infallibility is the endless screeching of anti-Catholic ignoramuses, and no bad pope ever taught anything anyway.

How many anti-Catholic bigots are too young to remember St. Pope John Paul was shot by evil forces? Oh! but we'll forget about him!!! We can watch a tv series that makes centuries old popes more important!

Anti-racism is all the rage these days, but nobody dare discuss the results of the Amazon Synod. There is a media blackout on the most anti-racist document in church history. Gee, I wonder why? NOOO, lets argue the same boring 500 year old arguments that have been refuted a million times because it's safer.
 
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theefaith

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John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing

rom 5:5 obedience to the faith!
 

Philip James

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Who is Ignatius?

Ignatius was the Bishop of Antioch responsible for the Church in Syria.

He was martyred for the Faith around 105 AD.

You can find english translations of his letters here: Ignatius of Antioch

I would rather belong to a church that admits to wrong doctrines than in a church whose leaders are hypocrites that when they fall the whole church falls

Really? You would rather be in a church that admittedly teaches error rather than one that teaches Truth, because of the failings of men?

Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice.


Oh, didn't you know I and the true believers are going to be a part of the Bride?

The wedding feast is NOW! No need to wait...

Peace be with you!
 

marksman

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We know that Peter and Paul were martyred around 67 A.D., so logically Peter was alive when Ignatius was a young man. He wrote his letters on his way to martyrdom in 110 AD, meaning he was around 60 at the time, long after Peter was dead. Imagine that, a 60 year old man posed such a threat to the mighty pagan Romans that they had to kill him.
Now answer the question.
 

Illuminator

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I haven't seen anyone BLAH BLAH BLAH... ... ...
That is gross misrepresentation of what every Catholic in here has posted on the subject of the sex abuse crisis. Notice marksman does not give thread and post number references to what he claims are red herrings, because he is afraid of the truth. I didn't give marksman full quote in my reply because its disgusting nature would be repeated, counter-productive to the efforts of the moderators to have it deleted. That bat they like to beat Catholics with is showing signs of wear. Since they seem to be so in love with the sex abuse topic, which nauseates any decent human being, here's a nice video you can wallow in. Yes, THIS TIME I'M POSTING A RED HERRING just for your entertainment, and it's all about pedophilia.

 
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Philip James

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You said apostles - plural. John is singular.

As Illuminator already pointed out, many apostles were still alive after 50 AD..

If you're looking for more reason to trust Ignatius, Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna, commends him (and his letters) here:

"The letters of Ignatius which were sent to us by him, and others as
many as we had by us, we send unto you, according as ye gave charge;
the which are subjoined to this letter; from which ye will be able to
gain great advantage. For they comprise faith and endurance and every
kind of edification, which pertaineth unto our Lord."

Polycarp to the Philippians (Lightfoot translation)

And of course Jesus commends Smyrna here:

To the angel of the church in Smyrna, write this: " 'The first and the last, who once died but came to life, says this:

"I know your tribulation and poverty, but you are rich. I know the slander of those who claim to be Jews and are not, but rather are members of the assembly of Satan.


Peace!
 

Illuminator

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That is gross misrepresentation of what every Catholic in here has posted on the subject of the sex abuse crisis. Notice marksman does not give thread and post number references to what he claims are red herrings, because he is afraid of the truth. I didn't give marksman full quote in my reply because its disgusting nature would be repeated, counter-productive to the efforts of the moderators to have it deleted. That bat they like to beat Catholics with is showing signs of wear. Since they seem to be so in love with the sex abuse topic, which nauseates any decent human being, here's a nice video you can wallow in. Yes, THIS TIME I'M POSTING A RED HERRING just for your entertainment, and it's all about pedophilia.

Sen. Cruz calls for criminal investigation into Netflix’s ‘Cuties’ | WBTW
 

Illuminator

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The Bible does not tell us which books of the Bible are are authoritative. Nor does the Bible tell us which books are not authoritative. Tradition has informed us that our modern Bible is authoritative, but some here are opposed to reliance upon tradition. So, if they oppose tradition, they oppose the Bible. Each of us must seek the truth the best we are able, using the traditional cannon of the Bible according to Catholicism, Protestantism, or Christian Orthodoxy.
Bible alone Christians (God bless them all) are not opposed to tradition, they are opposed to what they think tradition means.
 

marksman

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As Illuminator already pointed out, many apostles were still alive after 50 AD..

If you're looking for more reason to trust Ignatius, Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna, commends him (and his letters) here:

"The letters of Ignatius which were sent to us by him, and others as
many as we had by us, we send unto you, according as ye gave charge;
the which are subjoined to this letter; from which ye will be able to
gain great advantage. For they comprise faith and endurance and every
kind of edification, which pertaineth unto our Lord."

Polycarp to the Philippians (Lightfoot translation)

And of course Jesus commends Smyrna here:

To the angel of the church in Smyrna, write this: " 'The first and the last, who once died but came to life, says this:

"I know your tribulation and poverty, but you are rich. I know the slander of those who claim to be Jews and are not, but rather are members of the assembly of Satan.


Peace!
I haven't got a letter to the Philippians from Polycarp in my bible. And Jesus wasn't an apostle. He was the Saviour.
 

Illuminator

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I haven't got a letter to the Philippians from Polycarp in my bible.
That's because the Catholic Church didn't deem Polycarp's letters, or any ECF's letters, or the Didache to measure up to the Church's strict criteria for canonization. To you, that means they are worthless.
And Jesus wasn't an apostle.
Brilliant.

It is impossible to write any sensible early church history based on the bible alone, but you don't care, you do it anyway. That's why it's so important for you to dismiss or ignore the ECF's because none of them were sola scripturists.

"Bible alone" theology is not taught anywhere in the Bible, not found anywhere for 15 centuries, except it is used by every heretic in the patristic period. "Bible alone" theology is unworkable, illogical, and a circular man made tradition that is indefensible. That is why you have made every effort to derail the thread.

TEXT without CONTEXT is a PRETEXT.
The BIBLE without the CHURCH is just an EXCUSE.
 
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Illuminator

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Protestants have long held that the Bible is self-authenticating. Even the Roman Catholic Church, though giving regard to the Deuterocanonical books, will agree about the Canonical books; and Bible-believing, Protestant Christians would say that a hierarchy is not needed to tell them what is canonical. In the New Testament, with the exception of the Acts of the Apostles (notable title) and Luke, the author of Acts, all the NT books were authored by Apostles.

Supposed doubt about what the Bible really is, is a complete red herring.
Bible-believing, Protestant Christians would say that a hierarchy is not needed to tell them what is canonical.

They can say that all day, such a dogmatic statement as such is not found anywhere in the Bible. It's not inferred or suggested or hinted at. Nothing. Nadda. Zero.
I would challenge any Bible-believing, Protestant Christian to prove, using the premise of SS, that the Magisterium is not needed to tell them what is canonical. That's just as stupid as saying the Seat of Moses (the Old Testament Magisterium) was not needed to tell the Israelites what 5 books belonged in the Pentateuch.

That's just as dumb as saying Peter, James, John, other apostles and elders were not the Magisterium of the Council of Jerusalem. So lets stick with straight up biblical exegesis. But we can't do that without some guidelines as agreed by all as to what makes a reasonable exegete: one who brings out the meaning of passages based on context, not pre-conceived biases. Show from Scripture, and Scripture Alone, where this dogma is taught, suggested, inferred or hinted at. Use sound exegetical guidelines.

Next, show from history that no hierarchy was needed to prove inspired books from forged books. Give historical evidence that "a pluralty of elders" in union with true believers was all that was needed to discern the canon, because we all know how human beings agree on everything, just like they agreed on everything and didn't really debate for 4 centuries.

Bible-believing Protestants can't agree on whether or not baptism is an essential doctrine because there they have no Magisterium, and don't think one is necessary to clarify what is a moral act and what is not. They don't want a Magisterium, and should stop making a fuss about something they don't want.
This may shed some light on why Bible Believing Protestants are losing their best scholars to Catholicism. The answers they were getting fell short of common sense.

IMO, failure to prove the Magisterium in harmony with Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture were/are not needed for sound teaching tells me the Bible-believing Protestant is an oxymoron of terms.
 
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