John Darby

[Truther]

That's funny, you can't even keep to the subject and object of the Revelation 19 chapter!

Rev 19:2-9
2 For true and righteous are His judgments: for He hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of His servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God That sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye His servants, and ye that fear Him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
KJV

The "great whore" definitely is NOT... Rome. It is about the beast setup in power in Jerusalem on earth for the end of this world.

No, the whore found in Rev 17 is already destroyed in Rev 18 is Rome, and the marriage supper is in chapter 19...

Rev 17
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.(present tense).

 

[Davy]

No, the whore found in Rev 17 is already destroyed in Rev 18 is Rome, and the marriage supper is in chapter 19...

Rev 17
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.(present tense).

You might want to go back and study about the last 3 Trumpet - Woe periods again. The 7th Trumpet is when Bible prophecy for this world is done, over with, and The Father and His Son are literally reigning over all the kingdoms of this world. That won't happen until the day of Christ's 2nd coming on the final day of this world. That is when the rewards are handed out to His servants, and His wrath falls upon the wicked, as written there in Rev.11. All that is to happen on the final 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe.

But the beast in Jerusalem is shown in power within the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing. That is why Rev.11 says the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will kill God's two witnesses and their dead bodies left laying in the street of Jerusalem for three and one half days. That happens within the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period.

The Babylon harlot is defined as a "great city" at the end of Rev.17. It is also shown about that beast there in Rev.11, which is in Jerusalem. So no, it's not about Rome, nor the 70 A.D. destruction of Rome. The 6th Trumpet events are still yet to occur, as God's two witnesses have NEVER YET appeared in Jerusalem to this day. We still await that fulfillment. So it's very, very easy to know this is so because it is easy to prove in God's Holy Writ.

 

[Truther]

You might want to go back and study about the last 3 Trumpet - Woe periods again. The 7th Trumpet is when Bible prophecy for this world is done, over with, and The Father and His Son are literally reigning over all the kingdoms of this world. That won't happen until the day of Christ's 2nd coming on the final day of this world. That is when the rewards are handed out to His servants, and His wrath falls upon the wicked, as written there in Rev.11. All that is to happen on the final 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe.

But the beast in Jerusalem is shown in power within the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing. That is why Rev.11 says the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will kill God's two witnesses and their dead bodies left laying in the street of Jerusalem for three and one half days. That happens within the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period.

The Babylon harlot is defined as a "great city" at the end of Rev.17. It is also shown about that beast there in Rev.11, which is in Jerusalem. So no, it's not about Rome, nor the 70 A.D. destruction of Rome. The 6th Trumpet events are still yet to occur, as God's two witnesses have NEVER YET appeared in Jerusalem to this day. We still await that fulfillment. So it's very, very easy to know this is so because it is easy to prove in God's Holy Writ.

No, there are 2 physical cities. One is Jerusalem in Rev 11 and another is Rome in Rev 17-18.

Jerusalem is judged by an earthquake and is partially destroyed, but Rome is completely wiped out forever during the entire millennial reign of Christ to come. It will be left uninhabitable for 1000 years. God hates the RCC.

 

[Davy]

No, there are 2 physical cities. One is Jerusalem in Rev 11 and another is Rome in Rev 17-18.

Jerusalem is judged by an earthquake and is partially destroyed, but Rome is completely wiped out forever during the entire millennial reign of Christ to come. It will be left uninhabitable for 1000 years. God hates the RCC.

I disagree. The Babylon harlot of Revelation 17-18 is about Jerusalem in a fallen worship state with the coming Antichrist setting himself up there as God in a rebuilt temple. That is the event involving the coming "abomination of desolation" that Lord Jesus warned us about, and the "man of sin" that Apostle Paul warned us about (Matthew 24; 2 Thess.2).

Rev.17 connects the beast king and the ten kings of Daniel 7 and Rev.13. And what does Rev.17 tell us about those beast parameters?

Rev 17:3
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
KJV

Rev 17:12-13
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
KJV

Rev 13:1
13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
KJV

Thus it's important to remember what a previous chapter teaches (like Rev.13), when reading a later chapter (like Rev.17).

 

[Truther]

I disagree. The Babylon harlot of Revelation 17-18 is about Jerusalem in a fallen worship state with the coming Antichrist setting himself up there as God in a rebuilt temple. That is the event involving the coming "abomination of desolation" that Lord Jesus warned us about, and the "man of sin" that Apostle Paul warned us about (Matthew 24; 2 Thess.2).

Rev.17 connects the beast king and the ten kings of Daniel 7 and Rev.13. And what does Rev.17 tell us about those beast parameters?

Rev 17:3
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
KJV

Rev 17:12-13
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
KJV

Rev 13:1
13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
KJV

Thus it's important to remember what a previous chapter teaches (like Rev.13), when reading a later chapter (like Rev.17).

No, Rev 17 says the woman is that great city that reigns over the kings of the earth. That was Rome it was speaking of.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls. -1 Peter 1:3–9

various trials ...tested by fire to try the genuineness of Faith. Considered your post for several days and hate to keep coming back but it remains on my mind. My brother is in ICU. For one) my head is not functioning right but I still do not understand how this does not connect to the passage of the day of the Lord will try the work ...whether it be genuine or as in the parable where it withers, is scorched and burned up by the heat, consumed, has no root and once ‘persecution’ comes for the sake of the word ...to try whether the Faith be genuine it becomes offended and falls or goes away. Offended when ‘travail’ cometh instead of the word sent to John ‘blessed is he who is not offended in Me.’

Wadr how does one address ‘with persecutions’ in Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time ...with persecutions. With contractions ‘pangs’. You are a mother yes? Consider those contractions which are hell but necessary...not just necessary in ‘time draws near’ but also what part do those contractions ‘pangs’ have in deliverance (giving birth)? If I’m not mistaken, without the pangs how would there be a delivery?

‘Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome...the outcome of deliverance with unspeakable joy which Christ said ‘no man taketh it from you’ whom you haven’t seen, but you love with hope and expectation of delivery of a child.

Like you I also struggle to make a point clear though I try. Is the travail, tribulation, pains, contractions not the same? Yet in one case it is the persecutions and tribulation that come ...and then upon those not his it is said to be a different kind of fire to try burning them up and consuming. Does that line up with the word though which says it comes upon all, for God is not a respecter of persons. (Imo)His word shows a travail where what is conceived is wasted and consumed and produces nothing. Same trial it appears, ‘to test the quality’ whether it be of God or men...not being different in the testing but different in ‘endures and is born’ a joy, a hope, with contractions ...a persecution for His Namesake. The travail and ‘pangs’ necessary in deliverance ‘though it be tried’ whether there is death or Life.

(imo) in the following hear ‘contractions’ upon all Romans 8:18-26 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. [19] For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. [20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, [21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. [22] For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. [23] And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. [24] For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? [25] But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. (for our joy Christ to be made full) [26] Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Romans 9:22-23 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: [23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory (endless treasury) on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


Tecarta Bible

 

[GISMYS_7]

Hebrews 9:28=Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To ""those who eagerly wait for Him"" He will appear a second time. ====Those believers that deny the rapture will be left behind!! Why choose to stay behind and suffer under anti-christ rule and the judgments of the great tribulation???

 

[Davy]

No, Rev 17 says the woman is that great city that reigns over the kings of the earth. That was Rome it was speaking of.

No, Rev 17 says the woman is that great city that reigns over the kings of the earth (the ten kings). That is Jerusalem in the coming great tribulation it is speaking of.

 

[GISMYS_7]

No, Rev 17 says the woman is that great city that reigns over the kings of the earth (the ten kings). That is Jerusalem in the coming great tribulation it is speaking of.

Rome is the city John was speaking about.

 

[Davy]

Rome is the city John was speaking about.

Jerusalem is the city John was speaking about.

 

[Keraz]

Jerusalem is the city John was speaking about.

Revelation 17:18 refers to Rome.
Rome is the seat of the Roman Catholic Church, that has had sway over the kings of the earth. Not now, of course.
Proved by the seven hills of Rome. verse 9.

It seems that the seat of the One World Govt will be in Rome. The 10 kings that have not yet begun to reign, verse 12, will take their positions of authority in the ten regions around the world; as is already decided. [google; 10 world regions]
But it won't be long before another powerful man will take control of them all. It will be him that negotiates a 7 year treaty, Daniel 9:27, with Beulah, the new nation in all of the holy Land. Isaiah 62:1-5
After half of the 7 years has passed peacefully, he will attack Beulah and conquer the holy people. Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7

Note; that the 'beast', the leader of the OWG, the Anti-Christ, will hate the 'whore' and will destroy the RCC. Revelation 17:16

 

[Davy]

Revelation 17:18 refers to Rome.
Rome is the seat of the Roman Catholic Church, that has had sway over the kings of the earth. Not now, of course.
Proved by the seven hills of Rome. verse 9.

Nope.

Because the "seven heads" being "seven mountains" are about areas upon the earth involving the "waters" the harlot sits upon. And what did Jesus show those "waters" of Rev.17 represent?

Rev 17:1-3
17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
KJV

Rev 17:12-13
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
KJV

Rev 17:15
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
KJV

Rev 17:18
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
KJV


Rev.17 Clues:
1. the great whore sits upon many waters
2. she sits upon the beast that has seven heads and ten horns
3. the kings of the earth commit fornication with her
4. the ten horns are ten kings that rule concurrent with the beast
5. the waters she sits upon represent peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues
6. the great whore represents "a great city".

Put all those prophetic parameters together, and it is pointing to a ruling city over all peoples and nations, and over their kings. Revelation 13:4-8 is part of this, because we are told the "dragon" will have power over all peoples and nations for 42 months, and he represents the "another beast" of that Rev.13 chapter in connection with the pseudo-Christ Lord Jesus warned of in Matthew 24 and Mark 13, which is to appear in... JERUSALEM.

The pointer to Rome was an old belief by the Protestant Reformers back in Martin Luther's days. Only Church systems of men whose leadership has been taken over by Satan's host still push that old idea today. The pope was not the prophesied Antichrist for the end in their time, nor is the pope today the coming Antichrist for the end.

But can a pope fall away from Christ and mislead his flock? Yes. So can Protestant religious systems of men. Jerusalem is the city to watch for the end, not Rome.

 

[Naomi25]

various trials ...tested by fire to try the genuineness of Faith. Considered your post for several days and hate to keep coming back but it remains on my mind. My brother is in ICU. For one) my head is not functioning right but I still do not understand how this does not connect to the passage of the day of the Lord will try the work ...whether it be genuine or as in the parable where it withers, is scorched and burned up by the heat, consumed, has no root and once ‘persecution’ comes for the sake of the word ...to try whether the Faith be genuine it becomes offended and falls or goes away. Offended when ‘travail’ cometh instead of the word sent to John ‘blessed is he who is not offended in Me.’

I'm not sure that I suggested they are not connected, just that in each instance, the reference to the 'fire' must be considered in specific context. Sometimes fire warms, sometimes it destroys, and understanding which particular use the fire is being given, would change how we understand it, yeah?
I think in the cases of 1 Cor 3, where our works are 'tested by fire', we are to understand the fire in terms of clay work. Molding clay can bring about something beautiful, but it's weak and has no real functionality. Placing it in scorching heat will produce something that is both usable and beautiful. Paul is telling us that it's easy to form ideas and 'beliefs', but once they've passed through the fires of life, we can know these principles will stand firm.
1 Peter 1 is very similar...it speaks of being 'tested by fire' so that we might know the 'genuineness of our faith'.
These examples speak of the Christian life...the experience those who already believe in Jesus have day by day during this particular age, between his first and second coming. The 'other' sort of fire the bible describes, the one where we could say the imagery calls for a destroying fire, rather than a refining one, clearly comes at the end of this age, at Christ's return.

The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. -Matthew 13:41–42

and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. -Revelation 20:10

Wadr how does one address ‘with persecutions’ in Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time ...with persecutions. With contractions ‘pangs’. You are a mother yes? Consider those contractions which are hell but necessary...not just necessary in ‘time draws near’ but also what part do those contractions ‘pangs’ have in deliverance (giving birth)? If I’m not mistaken, without the pangs how would there be a delivery?

‘Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome...the outcome of deliverance with unspeakable joy which Christ said ‘no man taketh it from you’ whom you haven’t seen, but you love with hope and expectation of delivery of a child.

Like you I also struggle to make a point clear though I try. Is the travail, tribulation, pains, contractions not the same? Yet in one case it is the persecutions and tribulation that come ...and then upon those not his it is said to be a different kind of fire to try burning them up and consuming. Does that line up with the word though which says it comes upon all, for God is not a respecter of persons. (Imo)His word shows a travail where what is conceived is wasted and consumed and produces nothing. Same trial it appears, ‘to test the quality’ whether it be of God or men...not being different in the testing but different in ‘endures and is born’ a joy, a hope, with contractions ...a persecution for His Namesake. The travail and ‘pangs’ necessary in deliverance ‘though it be tried’ whether there is death or Life.

So...just trying to make sure I'm getting you here: you're saying you think that the bible calls Christians to 'travail, tribulation and pains' and non-Christians to the fire that burns, but they are essentially, the same, or at least, lead to the same place?

If that's what you are suggesting (and please do correct me if I'm wrong), I'm not sure I can agree with it. Because, while yes, the passages that speak of Christians enduring trials and tribulations with hope and faith...even joy, knowing we can trust God, the passages that speak of 'the fiery furnace' or 'eternal fire' are clearly linked with those who do not know Jesus and speak of a finality rather than something that leads to redemption. Also, the passages that speak of using 'fire to refine' are clearly speaking to those who are already found in Christ.
We must, however difficult, acknowledge that such passages like this, exist within scripture:

And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. -Matthew 12:32

(imo) in the following hear ‘contractions’ upon all Romans 8:18-26 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. [19] For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. [20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, [21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. [22] For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. [23] And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. [24] For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? [25] But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. (for our joy Christ to be made full) [26] Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Again, context is essential. And Romans 8:18-26 should not be understood as a general promise to humanity.

So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. -Romans 8:12–18

These are obviously promises to those who already have the Spirit of God, who are already crying out to God in repentance and faith. It practically screams that people who love, serve and are found in Christ can hold onto the promise of 'the glory that is to be revealed to us' when we find ourselves in the midst of trials and hardships. It's what we can hang onto.
In other words....people who reject or despise Christ do not have this promise.

 

[farouk]

@Naomi25 I do love Romans 8!

 

[Keraz]

Nope.

Your confusion arises from denial of how the 'beast' will rule from Rome, as he will be descended from those people of the 'prince' that shall come... Daniel 9:26
But at the middle of the final 'week', he will conquer Jerusalem and sit in the Temple, ruling from there for the next 3 1/2 years, until Jesus Returns and destroys his army at Armageddon and chains him up.

 

[Truther]

No, Rev 17 says the woman is that great city that reigns over the kings of the earth (the ten kings). That is Jerusalem in the coming great tribulation it is speaking of.

Rome reigned over the earth in the 1st century. The Jews reigning over the earth in the 1st century is silly, as Rome ruled them too.

 

[Davy]

Your confusion arises from denial of how the 'beast' will rule from Rome, as he will be descended from those people of the 'prince' that shall come... Daniel 9:26
But at the middle of the final 'week', he will conquer Jerusalem and sit in the Temple, ruling from there for the next 3 1/2 years, until Jesus Returns and destroys his army at Armageddon and chains him up.

Nah, the coming pseudo-Christ of Matthew 24:23-26 that Jesus warned about is to appear in Jerusalem, and there he will place the "abomination of desolation" in a new temple in Jerusalem in our near future. Apostle Paul showed the same thing in 2 Thessalonians 2. And Jesus through His Apostle John repeated the warning about the "another beast" of Revelation 13:11 forward.

The only reason why you'd latch onto the Rome idea is because you are deceived into believing safety is going to be in Jerusalem during the coming tribulation, when it will be just the opposite according to Christ's Olivet discourse for the end.

 

[Davy]

Rome reigned over the earth in the 1st century. The Jews reigning over the earth in the 1st century is silly, as Rome ruled them too.

Who said anything about the Jews ruling the earth in the 1st century? I certainly did not. You're not playing games too like others here do, are you?

 

[Truther]

Who said anything about the Jews ruling the earth in the 1st century? I certainly did not. You're not playing games too like others here do, are you?

No, the last verse of Rev 17 gives us a description of the whore(woman).....


18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.


Which was Rome.

Jerusalem was reigning over nothing when this was written, much less the kings over the earth.