@Prayer Warrior This is also why for preachers and Bible students to pray before reading and study of God's Word is so healthy. We do indeed need the gracious leading and illumination of the Holy Spirit, Who shall not speak of Himself, but shall testify and glorify the Lord Jesus, the central theme of the Scriptures.
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Prayer Warrior
Well-Known Member
Very true! Our own empty interpretations bring glory to man. But truth brings glory to God!
@Prayer Warrior Indeed so; I'm convinced that the whole area of interpretation is one which the professing church has fallen down very badly sometimes. At the Renaissance and Reformation, interpretation was all about words and their meaning in context, in writings, whether Scripture or wherever.
Now in politics and institutions so much of the way words are used are to promote the vested interests of the system, and not about using words honestly in the pursuit of truth and holiness.
Prayer Warrior
Well-Known Member
So often there is a twisting of the truth, but love rejoices when truth prevails! 1Cor 13:8
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Equally important is that the body of Christ meet with all it's members in open discussion groups where our gifts have an opportunity to be used to build each other up. I've received the most insight into the scriptures this way. Why not, since this is the way the Bible tells us to meet.
Prayer Warrior
Well-Known Member
I agree. I’m always blessed when others share what the Lord has been showing them through His Word! This can be a pastor or any other believer.
@Although I wouldn't equate group discussion/'therapy', etc. with the leading of the Holy Spirit, yes, the gatherings of pilgrim believers are indeed intended to be God honouring and edifying (Acts 2.42).
Prayer Warrior
Well-Known Member
Um, I didn't take what @Ferris Bueller said to be group therapy at all. He said "open discussion groups where our gifts have an opportunity to be used...."
Years ago, my family attended a church where the pastor set aside time during the church service and encouraged all believers to use our gifts to minister to one another. I would wait for the Holy Spirit to direct me, and at times He would show me someone to minister to. One time, the Holy Spirit directed me to a woman and anointed me to deliver a prophetic message to her, which was quite lengthy. In the middle of it, she stopped me and asked if we knew each other. I told her that we had a mutual friend at the church who had told me that she and her husband had just brought a new house. That's all I knew about her, but the message the Holy Spirit gave me went way beyond that knowledge. She told me that what I was saying was right on.... It was a very encouraging and uplifting message.
See, I KNOW when the Holy Spirit moves on me in the use of that gift. There's power and peace that's hard to describe! There's really nothing like it! But prophecy can be a difficult gift, as well. Sometimes, God has used me to deliver a hard word, and I have been rejected in the process even when I have delivered the message in all meekness. (I'm not talking about anyone on this forum; just wanted to make that clear.)
Often, the Holy Spirit will direct me in my study of the Bible. Lately, He has been directing me to study the book of Revelation. I know it's the Holy Spirit because I've never had much of a desire to study it. Last week while reading, I turned back in my Bible a few pages and spotted the following verses. You could say that they jumped out at me, and I immediately thought of this thread.
2 John 1:7-11--Many deceivers have gone out into the world; they do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch yourselves so you don’t lose what we have worked for, but that you may receive a full reward. Anyone who does not remain in Christ’s teaching but goes beyond it, does not have God. The one who remains in that teaching, this one has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your home, and don’t say, “Welcome,” to him; for the one who says, “Welcome,” to him shares in his evil works.
I thought about all of the denominational doctrines that go beyond Christ's teaching. I'm not saying this applies to all denominational doctrine, but some of it. We are not allowed to take what Christ said and expound on it using human logic, but this is being done. One thing I learned as I've used the gift of prophecy is to say ONLY what the Holy Spirit gives me to say, nothing less and nothing more. We humans want to add our own thoughts, but this muddies the waters. People need the clean fresh Living Water of the Holy Spirit that Jesus gives!
John 4:13-14--Jesus said, “Everyone who drinks from this water will get thirsty again. But whoever drinks from the water that I will give him will never get thirsty again — ever! In fact, the water I will give him will become a well of water springing up within him for eternal life.”
John 7:37-39--On the last and most important day of the festival, Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, he should come to Me and drink! The one who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, will have streams of living water flow from deep within him.” He said this about the Spirit. Those who believed in Jesus were going to receive the Spirit, for the Spirit had not yet been received because Jesus had not yet been glorified.
Taking a quick break from work.
Have a look, here's a couple. Let's see how the Holy Spirit guides you with these:
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by his deed, because he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
Act 7:2 He replied, 'My brothers, my fathers, listen to what I have to say. The God of glory appeared to our ancestor Abraham, while he was in Mesopotamia before settling in Haran,
1 Cor 4:15 for even though you might have ten thousand slaves to look after you in Christ, you still have no more than one father, and it was I who fathered you in Christ Jesus, by the gospel.
God Bless
<<<James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by his deed, because he offered his son Isaac on the altar?>>>
The sense that Abraham is father there is not in the same sense and context as that in Matthew 23:9. To the Jews, Abraham was their father, being their ancestor, for if you noticed, James was writing to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad(James 1:1), the Jewish Christians.
Are all the Catholic priests your ancestors that they are your "fathers" so that you all call them "father"?
<<<Act 7:2 He replied, 'My brothers, my fathers, listen to what I have to say. The God of glory appeared to our ancestor Abraham, while he was in Mesopotamia before settling in Haran,>>>
The fathers there again is not in the same sense and context as that in Matthew 23:9. "My brothers, my fathers" is Stephen's respectful address to the people who are mostly of Israel.
<<<1 Cor 4:15 for even though you might have ten thousand slaves to look after you in Christ, you still have no more than one father, and it was I who fathered you in Christ Jesus, by the gospel.>>>
The sense that Paul is a father to them there is not in the same sense as that in Matthew 23:9. Besides, nowhere in that scriptures does it say and effectively say that they are to call Paul, "father". I know not one passage where the apostles were called "father".
By the way, why did you seem to ignore and evade my request, that you tell us your interpretation of Matthew 23:9 or what your "Church" father teach you it means?
Tong
R1297
You are taking the literal interpretation and bending it however you want. St James did not comply with Lord according to your interpretation by calling Abraham our Father, which means the Holy Spirit did not comply to Jesus either since it's the inspired Word of God.
Many seek to be right, and as a result, they fail to seek the truth.
How can we respond to the “call no man father” question?
Of course you'll say that without even attempting to tell us your or your Church's interpretation.
It seems pretty clear that you just want for us to believe whatever you or your Church say is right to be what is right, and whatever you or your Church say is wrong to be what is wrong with regards the understanding of scriptures. In effect, that would be telling us that your Church tells the people that if their reading of scriptures does not fall in line with what they teach, their understanding is wrong. That is exactly what the Scribes and Pharisees say to the people of Israel. Are you not in the know of what resulted from this, that there was the necessity that the former covenant of God with Israel be replaced by a new covenant where it says among others, "None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them."? And so the many "Woes" in Mt. 23 to Scribes and the Pharisees who sit in Moses’ seat.
<<<Many seek to be right, and as a result, they fail to seek the truth.>>>
Your favorite line I have noticed. Perhaps you should clarify who are these "many" you are referring to. Else such statement really do not make much sense. What is the truth they fail to seek?
And again your answer to my request is yet another link. Another article that again will be shown to be flawed, which seek to tell the Catholics how they should answer such question pertaining to Mt.23:9, when what they ought to do is explain why they should call all the priests as "father". What the article really does there is to promote the "Catholic Church" as the only one who have and knows the truth, and is the only one who can teach the truth, and that then, one can only learn and understand the words of God in scriptures through them, as if their word is infallible, which to my knowledge is what is claimed.
The article said and I quote:
"If a Catholic is wrong in calling his priest “father,” then everyone who refers to his own natural father as “father” is also in the wrong. Both usages would be prohibited by a literal interpretation of Jesus’ words."
The article clearly is coming from a misuse of the scriptures in Mt. 23:9, taking the passage out of context. The argument is really no argument at all and if ever, a very weak one at that. The article puts forth such weak argument, one that is easily refuted.
So, there is the error again. The context is with regards the Scribes and Pharisees, who sit in Moses’ seat. The context clearly is with regards the office of the Levitical priesthood, that involves the teaching of God's words found in the Jewish Bible, of which the Scribes and Pharisees, in those days were occupied with. It's definitely not about our own natural fathers and ancestors. That's why, regarding the reference verses you gave, James 2:21 and Acts 7:2, I said that they are not in the same sense and context as that in Matthew 23:9. 1 Cor 4:15, on the other hand is also not in the same sense and context as that in Matthew 23:9, for Paul there was speaking as an apostle of Jesus Christ. While the sense in which Paul speaks of "father" in that passage is not with regards to natural relation or to natural ancestry, but with regards spiritual relationship, if I may so call it, the context there is about the gospel, the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is not the same as in Mt. 23:9. Paul, in that sense of "father" said that the Christians do not have many fathers, or in the version you quoted "you still have no more than one father".
So, why do you have so many fathers (all Catholic priests numbering to thousands upon thousands). Tell us, how are they all your "fathers"? Why do you call them all "father". I am sure you know the reason why you do, for I believe you don't do it blindly but with knowledge, so you don't need anyone else in a link to do that for you.
As I pointed out in my post #511, even while Paul in 1 Cor. 4:15 speaks of himself as a father in a sense to the Christians in Corinth, nowhere in that scriptures does it say and effectively say that they are to call Paul, "father". I know not one passage where the apostles were called "father". Is Peter, John, James, and all the other apostles, fathers to the church in Corinth? Were they all called father by the church during their time - father Paul, father Peter, father John, etc...? Where then is this idea of calling all your priests "father" coming from? Apparently, it's not coming from scriptures.
Tong
R1298
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Here's what I'm talking about.
1 Corinthians 14:26
When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up.
But the church doesn't do this. Instead we have cold, dead, boring, powerless liturgy. The mainline denominations major in this kind of unbiblical meeting together. Especially the Catholic church from whom it seems the Protestants got their idea of how to have church from.
You've probably never been in a true meeting of the saints, or, if you have you were unable to accept it because your conscience is geared toward having church the unbiblical traditional way it is done by our mainline churches. In other words, you don't feel that you've been obedient to 'go to church' unless you've gone to one of these cold, dead services. If that's true, I understand. I'm not condemning you. The church lost connection with the head a very, very long time ago and we're the victims of it in these last days.
I believe I have indeed witnessed Acts 2.42 practised:
"And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."
Prayer Warrior
Well-Known Member
The thing is these dead church services (dead because the Holy Spirit is not allowed to operate) may not FEEL dead or cold to people who have an emotional attachment to the traditional practices of a regimented church service. But I think these services would begin to feel dead to these people once they have experienced the life of the Spirit truly moving in a church service.
Unfortunately, even services in charismatic churches can be dead if things are not done in the power of the Spirit. I've experienced the dead at various churches (charismatic and non-charismatic). And I've experienced the alive--the power of the Holy Spirit at various churches and groups and in my family and in my bedroom as I worship the Lord.........
@Prayer Warrior The preacher C H Spurgeon commented on the phenomenon of pulpit and pews being occupied by dead ppl...
Prayer Warrior
Well-Known Member
@Prayer Warrior So it was then; so it is so often now. Acts 2.42 is a good challenge for professing church life, and prayer and the Scriptures in daily, personal life.
Prayer Warrior
Well-Known Member
I'm so grateful that we now have the apostles' teaching in the form of the Bible!
Acts 2:42--And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching, to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread, and to the prayers.
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