John 6:66 - Why did many disciples stop following Jesus?

[Ferris Bueller]

Here's the right question for this thread.

If the disciples who left were the ones who correctly understood the spiritual truth that Jesus was talking about eating and drinking his literal flesh and blood why did they leave? Surely such a revelation would show them to be the true disciples of Christ just as you claim that revelation makes you and your church the true disciples of Christ.

 

[Truthcampaign.org]

Apparently you have a lot of "why" questions. Questions that you think would make a metaphor to be not a metaphor. Let me try to help you with that.

<<<why did angry arguments breakout over this?>>>

They were really there for food for the stomach(26), and Jesus rebuked them for that (27). Then He pointed to Himself, that they should eat Him. Now, what do you think that sounds (in the literal) like to them? So, they murmured among themselves. For that simply is madness to their hearing.

<<<why did the Jews take Jesus’ words literally and say, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”>>>

They did, and that was the problem. That was why they murmured among themselves and quarreled over such foolishness and madness saying "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”(52)

<<<why did Jesus then give an “ultimatum” after the disciples argued over his teaching? “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.”>>>

That wasn't an ultimatum sir. Jesus in v.53-58 just continued what He was telling them about Himself. Of course He was not telling them that they kill Him there and then and that they all eat His flesh and drink His blood for them to have eternal life and not die. Perhaps, if you and five thousand more, who takes the words of Jesus there literally, would have killed Him and ate Him, for then you would not die and even have eternal life or would you, like them, argue over His words?

<<<why did Jesus say his flesh is “true” food and his blood is “true” drink?>>>

It was a figure of speech He used to tell them about Himself. He used this figure of Him being the "bread of life" as they followed Him seeking for food.

<<<why did the disciples say, “this saying is hard, who can accept it?”>>>

They did not realize that what Jesus was telling them is figurative rather than literal.

<<<why did Jesus say, “does this shock you?” >>>

Because Jesus know they are shocked for they murmur and quarrel about what they heard Him say about eating His flesh and drinking His blood, that they did not understand what He was telling them.

<<<why did many of his disciples return to their former way of living and no longer accompany him?>>>

They did not understand what Jesus was telling them (v.60). If what Jesus said was literal and not figurative, then they would not have complained and said "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?". For then, they would have understood Jesus, since there is nothing hard in what Jesus said if taken literally. It would not be a hard saying. What is hard for them, since they took it literally, is HOW can Jesus give them His flesh to eat (52). To them, that is simply impossible, if not, madness. So, perhaps they thought that Jesus had gone mad and crazy. If they continue to follow a man whom they thought to be like that, what would that make of them?

<<<why did Jesus ask if the twelve apostles were going to leave too? >>>

Jesus simply wanted to know from them if they too would do as they did, if they too think of Him as they did.

I hope this helps.

Tong
R1304

The crowd doesn’t initially take Jesus’ comments to literally. He has to use this literal imagery three separate times before they finally take it literally.

The First time, In John 6:32-33, Jesus says: “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven, and gives life to the world.”

The people think that He is referring to literal bread, but they don’t think that He’s referring to Himself. Their response is (John 6:34), “Lord, give us this bread always.”

So He approaches it a second time, explaining that He’s referring to Himself. This culminates in John 6:41, in which He says, “I am the Bread which came down from Heaven.”

The crowd still doesn’t take Him to literally mean that His Flesh is Bread. They take the saying figuratively, and their shock is instead at the implication that He is saying that He came from Heaven. They say (John 6:42) “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from Heaven’?” Notice that in the way that they have reframed it, they’ve disregarded the “Bread” reference entirely, assuming it to be metaphorical.

So Jesus addresses it a third time. This time, He emphasizes the explicitly Eucharistic aspect, in a way that is virtually unavoidable (John 6:48-51):

I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.

It’s only at this point that they take Him literally, after He’s presented the same teaching three different ways.

So that’s the first difference. Here, you don’t just have some naive overly-literal crowd assuming that Jesus must mean everything literally. You have Jesus hammering this point over and over until the people finally take Him at His word. The second difference is how He responds to them taking Him literally.

And He does clarify His meaning, but He does so by doubling down on the literalism (John 6:53-58):

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.

His language is even more strongly literal after He’s challenged on than before. It’s 180 degrees opposed to how He responds in every instance in which He’s using figurative language

This becomes even clearer in the verses following. After Jesus has emphasized (for the fourth time now) that He means this literally, His disciples say, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” (John 6:60). Jesus then presses them on it again, and John 6:66 says that “After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him.” Then, Jesus confronts the Twelve, and presses them on it (John 6:67): “Will you also go away?”

THIS IS NOT METAPHORICAL AT ALL!!!

 

[Tong2020]

That's a pretty good argument, all to suggest that you can follow Jesus and yet reject His words and the words of His Church for 2000 years...

6:2 But mark ye those who hold strange doctrine
touching the grace of Jesus Christ which came to us,
how that they are contrary to the mind of God. They
have no care for love, none for the widow, none for
the orphan, none for the afflicted, none for the
prisoner, none for the hungry or thirsty. They abstain
from eucharist (thanksgiving) and prayer, because they
allow not that the eucharist is the flesh of our
Saviour Jesus Christ, which flesh suffered for our
sins, and which the Father of His goodness raised up.

CHAPTER 7
7:1 They therefore that gainsay the good gift of God
perish by their questionings. But it were expedient
for them to have love, that they may also rise again.

ignatius-smyrnaeans-lightfoot.html


This cup is the new covenant in my blood

Peace be with you!

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!

Welcome back. I thought you stopped your exchange with me since you did not address some of my questions to you in the past posts. Anyway,....

Anyone can follow and be said to follow Jesus. Others true, others not, and others for the wrong reasons. As for me, I believe in Jesus, His person, life, works, and words, written in scriptures, more than those spoken by men. I accept the words, not of any man, but of God's words He have spoken at various times and in various ways, in time past to the fathers by the prophets, by Jesus Christ, and by the Holy Spirit through the chosen apostles, written out in scriptures. That my friend is not only 2000 years ago, but many more years before that.

Listen to what apostle Paul said to Timothy:

2 Timothy 3:14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

What book in the Bible are those quotations coming from? Can't find them. For even when the apostles were the ones preaching, here's what scriptures said:

Acts 17:11
These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

Tong
R1305

 

[Tong2020]

And therein lies your problem. You demand that the perceptions of our flesh establish our reality, rather than the Word of God...

It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

What are His words again?

this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.

I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."

Yet still today many ask 'how can this man give us his flesh to eat..' ?

'This is My Body, take and eat'

Peace be with you!

<<<You demand that the perceptions of our flesh establish our reality, rather than the Word of God..>>>
Why, do you expect your flesh to perceive the things of the Spirit of God? Don't you know that the things of the Spirit of God, which are written in scriptures are not perceived by the flesh, but are spiritually discerned?

Let me still go on and point out a few more points regarding the subject of the body and blood of Christ. You know that Jesus, on the night before he was crucified, He had supper with His disciples. There He had bread and said “Take, eat; this is My body.”, and had the fruit of the vine and said "Drink from it, all of you. For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins". I am presuming that you take that literally too.

My question, do you say that the bread and the fruit of the vine there became literally the body and blood of Jesus Christ at that supper? Note, He is referring to His body and blood before the resurrection which is in front of them (disciples). Is that not this supper that Jesus told His disciples to do in remembrance of Him?

Tong
R1306

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The crowd doesn’t initially take Jesus’ comments to literally. He has to use this literal imagery three separate times before they finally take it literally.

The First time, In John 6:32-33, Jesus says: “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven, and gives life to the world.”

The people think that He is referring to literal bread, but they don’t think that He’s referring to Himself. Their response is (John 6:34), “Lord, give us this bread always.”

So He approaches it a second time, explaining that He’s referring to Himself. This culminates in John 6:41, in which He says, “I am the Bread which came down from Heaven.”

The crowd still doesn’t take Him to literally mean that His Flesh is Bread. They take the saying figuratively, and their shock is instead at the implication that He is saying that He came from Heaven. They say (John 6:42) “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from Heaven’?” Notice that in the way that they have reframed it, they’ve disregarded the “Bread” reference entirely, assuming it to be metaphorical.

So Jesus addresses it a third time. This time, He emphasizes the explicitly Eucharistic aspect, in a way that is virtually unavoidable (John 6:48-51):

I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.

It’s only at this point that they take Him literally, after He’s presented the same teaching three different ways.

So that’s the first difference. Here, you don’t just have some naive overly-literal crowd assuming that Jesus must mean everything literally. You have Jesus hammering this point over and over until the people finally take Him at His word. The second difference is how He responds to them taking Him literally.

And He does clarify His meaning, but He does so by doubling down on the literalism (John 6:53-58):

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.

His language is even more strongly literal after He’s challenged on than before. It’s 180 degrees opposed to how He responds in every instance in which He’s using figurative language

This becomes even clearer in the verses following. After Jesus has emphasized (for the fourth time now) that He means this literally, His disciples say, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” (John 6:60). Jesus then presses them on it again, and John 6:66 says that “After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him.” Then, Jesus confronts the Twelve, and presses them on it (John 6:67): “Will you also go away?”

THIS IS NOT METAPHORICAL AT ALL!!!

Now explain why the people that you say correctly understood that Jesus was talking literally left. According to you they possess the great revelation that only the true people of God have, yet they left.

 

[Tong2020]

THIS IS NOT METAPHORICAL AT ALL!!!

Jesus knew what they are following Him for and rebuked them. They were not following Him because they believe that He is the Messiah.

John 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

The disciples or followers did not believe in Jesus:

John 6:30 Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’ ”

In the verses above, they were asking for a sign that He will perform and brought Moses, whom they believed was a man of God, pointing to the manna in the desert. It is from this that Jesus used the figure of bread to tell them about Himself, for the people's mind were preoccupied with food, moreso of free food that even endures to everlasting life. He refuted their wrong belief about the manna, telling them it was not the true bread from heaven (v.32). In v.33, He told them that He is the true bread from heaven. As if they did not hear what Jesus said, that Jesus is the true bread from heaven that they said:

John 6:34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”

So Jesus, made it clear to them in verse 35 saying "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst". And Jesus said of them in v.36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe." In verse 37-40, Jesus explained to them what He was really telling them about Himself, Him being the true bread from heaven. (Look at v.40 and relate that to v.36.)

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Now, what happened after Jesus told them that? They started to complain.

John 6:41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” 42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”

Looking at v.41, they seem not to have heard what Jesus told them in v.36-40, and only heard what Jesus said in v.35. It was now clear to them that Jesus is pointing to Himself as the bread from heaven. It is what they complained about. But besides that, human logic and reasoning kicked in to them asking "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”

This is what Jesus in response to them:

John 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

Interrupted by their complaints, Jesus rebuked them in v.43 saying regarding their complains and questions saying "Do not murmur among yourselves." Then in verses 44-51, He went on to continue what He was telling them in v.35-40. You will see, that what He was telling them was about His telling them that He is the bread from heaven, the bread of life. From that, it is clear that what He meant by the figure of Him being the bread from heaven is what He told them in verses 37-40, and on to verses 44-47. At this point, they again interrupted Jesus, and this time there is now quarrel amongst themselves:

John 6:52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”

Apparently they are really not hearing what Jesus was telling them. They have this problem, which can be understood in the question in v.52, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”. Evidently, they do not hear and do not understand what He says plainly in verses 37-40, 44-47. With that, Jesus just continued, but this time not going back to using the figure of Him being bread, as food to eat.

John 6:53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

As we can see, Jesus did not bother to answer their question in v.52. Instead He continued in figurative language (v.53-58). And again, as they have done so, they complained saying:

John 6:60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”

Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you?" (v.61). Their complaining suggest they were. They are seeking for life. But apparently, all they knew is living by bread. They seem to not know or perhaps they have not learned what is taught in scriptures that "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." (Deut. 8:3. Mt.4:4). We can see why Jesus said:

John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

I think that's enough at that point. Now, let me take you back to verse 58 where Jesus said, "This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

"This bread" refers to Jesus Christ. He compares eating of the manna against eating of Himself. What is the comparison? Those who ate the manna, they died. Those who eats of Jesus Christ, will live forever. Of the manna, what death is referred to? Is it not physical death? How about of the eating of Jesus Christ? You have done so a hundred or maybe even thousands of times already, right? That's eternal life for you, the many times as much as you've eaten, and that literally, as manna was eaten literally in the days in the wilderness. Considering literally what Jesus said in v. 58, that would mean you will not die, unlike those who ate the manna who died. Besides, in the last supper, all 12 apostles ate the body and drank the blood of Jesus, that is, as you believed, the transformed bread and wine. Yet all 12 died like those who ate the manna in the desert, even considering that it is Jesus Himself who gave them bread and wine.

Remember, the words of Jesus are spirit, and they are life. It means then that if one feed on the words of Jesus, he have life in him. Jesus said in a figure of speech "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you."

Hope this helps!

Tong
R1307

 

[Philip James]

Why, do you expect your flesh to perceive the things of the Spirit of God?

I don't. Thats exactly my point. To insist that the Eucharist is not the flesh and blood of Christ, because ones flesh perceives bread and wine, is to listen to ones flesh and not Jesus' words, which are Spirit and Life!

My question, do you say that the bread and the fruit of the vine there became literally the body and blood of Jesus Christ at that supper?

Jesus said it. I believe Him!

Is that not this supper that Jesus told His disciples to do in remembrance of Him?

Yes.

Peace!

 

[Tong2020]

I don't. Thats exactly my point. To insist that the Eucharist is not the flesh and blood of Christ, because ones flesh perceives bread and wine, is to listen to ones flesh and not Jesus' words, which are Spirit and Life!

Oh, then I stand corrected. My mistake. So you're saying that the bread and wine, while they are perceived as material bread and wine, are in your reality the body and blood of Jesus. And perhaps, while they are perceived as perishable, are in your reality imperishable, right? And perhaps, if you were alive and was with Jesus back then, while Jesus was flesh and blood when He was on earth, in your reality He is not, just as the bread is in your reality is not bread but the body of Christ and the wine is in your reality is not wine but the blood of Christ.

And by the way, how are the words of Jesus spirit? Here were the words of Jesus in John 6:55, "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed." Can you explain to us how those words are spirit?
___________________________________
Tong2020 said:
My question, do you say that the bread and the fruit of the vine there became literally the body and blood of Jesus Christ at that supper?

Jesus said it. I believe Him!

If Jesus said that, I too will believe Him. But where did Jesus said that the bread and the fruit of the vine there became literally His body and blood?

Anyway, so you believe that. In your belief then, all the apostles ate of the literal flesh of Jesus and had drank of the literal blood of Jesus at the last supper, right? Right. And what did Jesus said when one eats of His flesh and blood? Did not Jesus said "This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."? However, all the apostles are dead just as those who ate of the manna. You have also eaten of his flesh and blood, not once even but a hundred or maybe even thousands of times already, right? That's eternal life for you. And you have eternal life as many times as much as you've eaten, and that literally, as manna was eaten literally in the days in the wilderness. But will you die? Yes you will literally die someday, as all of us will.
___________________________________
Tong2020 said:
Is that not this supper that Jesus told His disciples to do in remembrance of Him?

Yes.

Yes. It was for in remembrance of Jesus Christ, that they are to break bread as they did in that night before His death. Also, scriptures said that as often as they do that, they proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes. There is not in scriptures that speaks of any other purpose or reason pertaining to the coming together of the brethren to eat the Lord’s Supper, than those.

Tong
R1308

 

[DaChaser]

I created the website below. The Bread of Life Discourse is a stumbling block for protestants, which has to do with eternal life.

Many seek to be right, and as a result, they fail to seek the truth!

Truth Campaign | Gospel of John Chapter 6 | Always Seek The Truth!

God Bless!

Jesus Himself is the Bread of life, not any wafer or wine!

 

[Truthcampaign.org]

Looking at v.41, they seem not to have heard what Jesus told them in v.36-40, and only heard what Jesus said in v.35. It was now clear to them that Jesus is pointing to Himself as the bread from heaven. It is what they complained about. But besides that, human logic and reasoning kicked in to them asking "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”

You assume they did not hear Jesus in verse 36-40.

As scripture scholars would say, Jesus is reading their hearts and knows exactly what they are believing. 36-40 is about lack of belief in Jesus and what he is teaching. God already knows who will believe based on free will and who won't; and he is letting them know.

Interrupted by their complaints, Jesus rebuked them in v.43 saying regarding their complains and questions saying "Do not murmur among yourselves." Then in verses 44-51, He went on to continue what He was telling them in v.35-40. You will see, that what He was telling them was about His telling them that He is the bread from heaven, the bread of life. From that, it is clear that what He meant by the figure of Him being the bread from heaven is what He told them in verses 37-40, and on to verses 44-47. At this point, they again interrupted Jesus, and this time there is now quarrel amongst themselves:

You again assume, instead of letting scripture provide you the answers! You distort them to match your theories.

36-40, Jesus explains that the crowd was not believing and that he knows who would believe and who would not.

Crowed started complaining again about him being the bread of life from heaven. The are clearly complaining about Jesus being bread from heaven:

42 Meanwhile the Jews were complaining to each other about him, because he had said, 'I am the bread that has come down from heaven.'

Jesus reiterates in 44-45 that he knows who believes and doesn't. Jesus is saying to his disciples, though you have "come to me" because you are called a disciples of Christ in the Holy Bible, you have to listen(45), learn(45) and most importantly believe(47) what you listen and learned.

47 In all truth I tell you, everyone who believes has eternal life. What does believe mean?

Some people including yourself believe the theory that the disciples were not called by God the Father (44) and therefore left Jesus in 66. The bible clearly states that God calls ALL people. If Jesus calls you, then it was granted by the father. Here is just a couple verses:

Jesus draws ALL men to himself - John 12:32

Jesus calls on ALL people to come and he will give them rest - Matt 11:28

God calls on everyone to be saved and reach full knowledge of the truth. 1Tim 2:4

With all this said, you most definitely had to listen and learn from the Father and had “come to Jesus” to be called a “disciple of Christ” in the Holy Bible. John 14:9-10

The Father can draw us but we are free to walk away. We are free to ignore his calling just like Judas. Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?" He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was to betray him. John 6:70-71

The Father draws them, they come to Christ, they abandon Christ, and Jesus does not then welcome them on the last day. There is nothing in that passage which says that anyone who comes to Christ must stay there. In John 10:29, we read that no one is able to take them away from God, but they can most certainly walk away based on their free will.

John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

I have already answered this:

Some say this verse confirms that Jesus was speaking symbolically with regard to the Bread of Life Discourse in John chapter 6. Does this verse confirm that Jesus in fact was speaking symbolically?

Verse 63: “It is the spirit that gives life, while “the” flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.”

• What are the words he just spoke? Several times Jesus spoke, eat my flesh (7) and drink my blood (3) to obtain eternal life.

• What does “no avail” mean? It means “no help or benefit.”

• Did Jesus say “my” flesh is of no avail? No, he said “the” flesh is of no avail.

• Is Jesus’ flesh of no avail? No!

• The Lord is perfect and sinless. His flesh is holy and pure. His flesh and spirit rose from the dead. Was his flesh on the cross of no help or benefit? Jesus is referring to “our” sinful flesh. The Lord is saying, it is no help or benefit to feed “our” flesh that dies and withers away. “His” resurrected flesh and blood feeds our spirit (soul), which gives life.

• Consuming his flesh and blood feeds our spirit (soul) which gives life, not our sinful flesh which is of no avail. We transform into the Body of Christ by spiritually being fed, so we too rise from the dead.

https://truthcampaign.org/truth-campaign-2/

"This bread" refers to Jesus Christ. He compares eating of the manna against eating of Himself. What is the comparison? Those who ate the manna, they died. Those who eats of Jesus Christ, will live forever. Of the manna, what death is referred to? Is it not physical death? How about of the eating of Jesus Christ? You have done so a hundred or maybe even thousands of times already, right? That's eternal life for you, the many times as much as you've eaten, and that literally, as manna was eaten literally in the days in the wilderness. Considering literally what Jesus said in v. 58, that would mean you will not die, unlike those who ate the manna who died. Besides, in the last supper, all 12 apostles ate the body and drank the blood of Jesus, that is, as you believed, the transformed bread and wine. Yet all 12 died like those who ate the manna in the desert, even considering that it is Jesus Himself who gave them bread and wine.

Consuming his flesh and blood feeds our spirit (soul) which gives life, not our sinful flesh which is of no avail. We transform into the Body of Christ by spiritually being fed, so we too rise from the dead.

God Bless

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

I agree that you must serve God with the right motive.
Joh 6:25-27, 54, 60, 66-69 The people had the wrong motive for associating with Jesus and his disciples, they stumbled at his words. Jesus understood that some people were associating with him and his disciples solely for material advantage. While physical food sustains people day by day, “food” from God’s Word will make it possible for humans to stay alive forever. Jesus urges the crowd to work . . . for “the food that remains for everlasting life,” that is, to put forth effort to satisfy their spiritual need and to exercise faith in what they learn. Mt 4:4; 5:3; Joh 6:28-39.

Why did they follow him after he avoided their efforts to make him a king? Many betrayed a fleshly viewpoint, speaking pointedly of the material provisions that Jehovah had made in the wilderness in Moses’ day. The implication was that Jesus should continue to make material provisions for them. Jesus, perceiving their wrong motives, began to teach them spiritual truths that could help adjust their thinking. (John 6:17, 24, 25, 30, 31, 35-40) In response, some murmured against him, especially when he spoke this illustration: “Most truly I say to you, Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves. He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I shall resurrect him at the last day.”John 6:53, 54.

Jesus’ illustrations often moved people to show whether they truly desired to walk with God. This one was no exception. It provoked strong reactions. We read: “Many of his disciples, when they heard this, said: ‘This speech is shocking; who can listen to it?’” Jesus went on to explain that they should look for the spiritual meaning of his words. He said: “It is the spirit that is life-giving; the flesh is of no use at all. The sayings that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.” Still, many would not listen, and the account reports: “Owing to this many of his disciples went off to the things behind and would no longer walk with him.” John 6:60, 63, 66.

The context indicates that those who feed and drink do so in a figurative sense by exercising faith in Jesus Christ. (Joh 6:35, 40) Jesus made this statement in 32 C.E., so he was not discussing the Lord’s Evening Meal, which he would institute a year later. He made this declaration just prior to “the Passover, the festival of the Jews” (Joh 6:4), so his listeners would likely have been reminded of the impending festival and the significance of the lamb’s blood in saving lives on the night that Israel left Egypt (Ex 12:24-27). Jesus was emphasizing that his blood would likewise play an essential role in making it possible for his disciples to gain everlasting life.
Jesus’ statement may allude to Jer 31:3, where Jehovah said to his ancient people: “I have drawn you to me with loyal love.” (The Septuagint uses the same Greek verb here.) Joh 12:32 shows that in a similar way, Jesus draws men of all sorts to himself. The Scriptures show that Jehovah has given humans free will. Everyone has a choice when it comes to serving Him. (De 30:19, 20) God gently draws to himself those who have a heart that is rightly disposed. (Ps 11:5; Pr 21:2; Ac 13:48) Jehovah does so through the Bible’s message and through his holy spirit. The prophecy from Isa 54:13, quoted in Joh 6:45, applies to those who are drawn by the Father. Joh 6:65.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said:
Looking at v.41, they seem not to have heard what Jesus told them in v.36-40, and only heard what Jesus said in v.35. It was now clear to them that Jesus is pointing to Himself as the bread from heaven. It is what they complained about. But besides that, human logic and reasoning kicked in to them asking "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”

You assume they did not hear Jesus in verse 36-40.

As scripture scholars would say, Jesus is reading their hearts and knows exactly what they are believing. 36-40 is about lack of belief in Jesus and what he is teaching. God already knows who will believe based on free will and who won't; and he is letting them know.

Yes, you can say that. But my statement is not without basis. As I said "Looking at v.41, they seem not to have heard what Jesus told them in v.36-40, and only heard what Jesus said in v.35.". So, it was on the basis of verse 41 which says "The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” They were silent about all that Jesus said in v.36-40, but complained regarding what Jesus said in v.33-35.

We know that Jesus Christ can read the hearts of men. But unless He tells us, we would not know what He knows regarding what's in their hearts. So looking at the passage, what did Jesus know about these who followed Jesus? From v.36, it is that they have seen Him and yet do not believe.
_________________________________
Tong2020 said: ↑
Interrupted by their complaints, Jesus rebuked them in v.43 saying regarding their complaints and questions saying "Do not murmur among yourselves." Then in verses 44-51, He went on to continue what He was telling them in v.35-40. You will see, that what He was telling them was about His telling them that He is the bread from heaven, the bread of life. From that, it is clear that what He meant by the figure of Him being the bread from heaven is what He told them in verses 37-40, and on to verses 44-47. At this point, they again interrupted Jesus, and this time there is now quarrel amongst themselves:

You again assume, instead of letting scripture provide you the answers! You distort them to match your theories.

36-40, Jesus explains that the crowd was not believing and that he knows who would believe and who would not.

No sir, there is no assumption there. Read verse 35 where Jesus said "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." What He said in verses 36-40, starting with telling them concerning their unbelief in Him, is very much about Him being the bread of Life. He speaks of them whom the Father had given Him, who will come to Him, that they will have eternal life. In that, He was saying figuratively that He is the bread of life, for those who come to Him, given by the Father, will have life eternal. Sadly though, they do not believe in Him, which translates to the figure of them not partaking of the bread of life.

Crowed started complaining again about him being the bread of life from heaven. The are clearly complaining about Jesus being bread from heaven:

42 Meanwhile the Jews were complaining to each other about him, because he had said, 'I am the bread that has come down from heaven.'

Yes they were and notice, not a word about anything what Jesus said in v.36-40.

Jesus reiterates in 44-45 that he knows who believes and doesn't. Jesus is saying to his disciples, though you have "come to me" because you are called a disciples of Christ in the Holy Bible, you have to listen(45), learn(45) and most importantly believe(47) what you listen and learned.

Not that they are called disciples there, that it means they are true disciples. No sir. Afterall, it was revealed by Jesus Christ why they followed Him (read v.26).

<<<Jesus is saying to his disciples, though you have "come to me"....>>>
Nowhere in the passage can we read Jesus saying such thing.

47 In all truth I tell you, everyone who believes has eternal life. What does believe mean?

Some people including yourself believe the theory that the disciples were not called by God the Father (44) and therefore left Jesus in 66.

That is a misrepresentation, if not, a false accusation. I never believe such. Please show where you got that from.

<<<What does believe mean?>>>
If up to now you don't know what believe mean, then you have a big problem.

The bible clearly states that God calls ALL people. If Jesus calls you, then it was granted by the father. Here is just a couple verses:

Jesus draws ALL men to himself - John 12:32

Jesus calls on ALL people to come and he will give them rest - Matt 11:28

God calls on everyone to be saved and reach full knowledge of the truth. 1Tim 2:4

One, "draw" is not the same with "call".

All three cited scriptures are misused. John 12:32 drawing have a different sense in the drawing in John 6:44. This had been shown to you, but to no avail. I am not telling you to take my word for it. You can study that by looking at the original Greek texts and their meaning and senses, together with the context, yourself. Mat.11:28 is an invitation. Further, it is not even an invitation to all men in general, but specific to all men who labor and are heavy laden. 1 Tim. 2:4 is not saying that God calls on everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. It tells us about a desire of God. Hope you see the misuse.

With all this said, you most definitely had to listen and learn from the Father and had “come to Jesus” to be called a “disciple of Christ” in the Holy Bible. John 14:9-10

With what I've shown you above, what you say there points back to you.

*continue next post....

Tong
R1309

 

[Tong2020]

The Father can draw us but we are free to walk away. We are free to ignore his calling just like Judas. Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?" He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was to betray him. John 6:70-71.

The Father draws them, they come to Christ, they abandon Christ, and Jesus does not then welcome them on the last day.

There is nothing in that passage which says that anyone who comes to Christ must stay there. In John 10:29, we read that no one is able to take them away from God, but they can most certainly walk away based on their free will.

God choose people for different purposes. Pharoah was chosen for a purpose as was Judas. The 11 disciples chosen by Jesus were for another, that is, to be His apostles.

You seem to believe and make so much of your so called free will, to be more powerful than the Almighty God, at least in that sense. If you believe that you can walk away from Him, even while you claim to believe in Him, then that's speaks of your faith. But that does not mean that that is what it is for all.
_________________________
Tong2020 said:
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

I have already answered this:

Some say this verse confirms that Jesus was speaking symbolically with regard to the Bread of Life Discourse in John chapter 6. Does this verse confirm that Jesus in fact was speaking symbolically?

Verse 63: “It is the spirit that gives life, while “the” flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.”

• What are the words he just spoke? Several times Jesus spoke, eat my flesh (7) and drink my blood (3) to obtain eternal life.

• What does “no avail” mean? It means “no help or benefit.”

• Did Jesus say “my” flesh is of no avail? No, he said “the” flesh is of no avail.

• Is Jesus’ flesh of no avail? No!

• The Lord is perfect and sinless. His flesh is holy and pure. His flesh and spirit rose from the dead. Was his flesh on the cross of no help or benefit? Jesus is referring to “our” sinful flesh. The Lord is saying, it is no help or benefit to feed “our” flesh that dies and withers away. “His” resurrected flesh and blood feeds our spirit (soul), which gives life.

• Consuming his flesh and blood feeds our spirit (soul) which gives life, not our sinful flesh which is of no avail. We transform into the Body of Christ by spiritually being fed, so we too rise from the dead.

And I've already given my refutation to most, if not all, of that. Don't know why you just keep reposting that. You should instead address my, and other's, refutation or argument against that. I'll say a few new comments on some here.

<<<What are the words he just spoke? Several times Jesus spoke, eat my flesh (7) and drink my blood (3) to obtain eternal life.>>>
But that is not all of what Jesus spoke. One only have to Read John 6 and will see a lot more that Jesus said.

<<<The Lord is saying, it is no help or benefit to feed “our” flesh that dies and withers away.>>>
No, He was not saying that by what He said in verse 63. For elsewhere, Jesus said, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God". The point of what He is making in v.63 is found in the last statement "The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life." He is pointing them to that His words are life. Feed on the words of Jesus, for His words are life. So, in John 6, we read and can easily tell what are the words of Jesus are there.

<<<Consuming his flesh and blood feeds our spirit (soul) which gives life, not our sinful flesh which is of no avail. >>>
As pointed above, it is His words that are life, not His literal flesh and blood. His words are that which feeds us that gives life. As bread is for the body or the material part of man, His words which are spirit, is for the soul or the spiritual part of man. As Jesus said "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God".

Hope this helps.

Tong
R1310

 

[Truthcampaign.org]

That is a misrepresentation, if not, a false accusation. I never believe such. Please show where you got that from.

I'll make this quick because I have to work.

I might be mixing you up with other on this forum and I apologize. With that said, how your word your argues are confusing and not to the point. Tell me what you believe in John 6 and why. Please don't make it super long because I don't have the time -- super busy. Please be very clear and to the point. I appreciate it! God Bless.

 

[Tong2020]

I'll make this quick because I have to work.

I might be mixing you up with other on this forum and I apologize. With that said, how your word your argues are confusing and not to the point. Tell me what you believe in John 6 and why. Please don't make it super long because I don't have the time -- super busy. Please be very clear and to the point. I appreciate it! God Bless.

<<<Tell me what you believe in John 6>>>

What particular passage in John 6 are you asking what I believe?

Tong
R1311

 

[Philip James]

Dear Tong,

Oh, then I stand corrected. My mistake. So you're saying that the bread and wine, while they are perceived as material bread and wine, are in your reality the body and blood of Jesus. And perhaps, while they are perceived as perishable, are in your reality imperishable, right? And perhaps, if you were alive and was with Jesus back then, while Jesus was flesh and blood when He was on earth, in your reality He is not, just as the bread is in your reality is not bread but the body of Christ and the wine is in your reality is not wine but the blood of Christ.

let me make this clear, neither I , nor you establish reality. It is God Who establishes reality.

so then, when Jesus says 'this is my body', it is either true or not true independently of my belief, or your unbelief.

For 2000 years the Church in Rome, the Church in Alexandria, and the Church in Constantinople have professed that Jesus really meant what He said and that the Eucharist is truly the body and blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ, and that this we have received from the apostles...
Where is the 2000 year old Christian community that says otherwise?

And by the way, how are the words of Jesus spirit? Here were the words of Jesus in John 6:55, "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed." Can you explain to us how those words are spirit?

Jesus' words are spirit because they are Truth! And the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Truth!

___________________________________
Tong2020 said:
My question, do you say that the bread and the fruit of the vine there became literally the body and blood of Jesus Christ at that supper?

If Jesus said that, I too will believe Him. But where did Jesus said that the bread and the fruit of the vine there became literally His body and blood?

This is my Body. Take and eat

Anyway, so you believe that. In your belief then, all the apostles ate of the literal flesh of Jesus and had drank of the literal blood of Jesus at the last supper, right? Right. And what did Jesus said when one eats of His flesh and blood? Did not Jesus said "This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."? However, all the apostles are dead...

Have you not heard? Our God is the God of the living!

Jesus told her, "I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live,


and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

The apostles are very much alive.

All you holy apostles, pray for us!

Yes. It was for in remembrance of Jesus Christ, that they are to break bread as they did in that night before His death. Also, scriptures said that as often as they do that, they proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes. There is not in scriptures that speaks of any other purpose or reason pertaining to the coming together of the brethren to eat the Lord’s Supper, than those.

Ex 12:6
1Cor 10:16-18
Mal 1:11
Heb 13:10
ezek 37:27
Eph 5:31-32


You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Peace be with you!

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!

 

[Truthcampaign.org]

Jesus went on to explain that they should look for the spiritual meaning of his words. He said: “It is the spirit that is life-giving; the flesh is of no use at all. The sayings that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.”

Hi Barney,

So this is the main bases for your belief that Jesus was speaking figuratively. After Jesus just got done explaining seven times to eat this flesh (even tearing and gnaw on it; in the greek) and three times to drink his blood or you will have no eternal life, he comes back and says just joking. I was speaking metaphorically, and then allows his disciples to leave on a misunderstanding. This does not make sense.

............

Was Jesus speaking symbolically in John chapter 6:63? If so, why did the disciples stop following Jesus?

Some say this verse confirms that Jesus was speaking symbolically with regard to the Bread of Life Discourse in John chapter 6. Does this verse confirm that Jesus in fact was speaking symbolically?

Verse 63: “It is the spirit that gives life, while “the” flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.”

• What are the words he just spoke? Several times Jesus spoke, eat my flesh (7) and drink my blood (3) to obtain eternal life.

• What does “no avail” mean? It means “no help or benefit.”

• Did Jesus say “my” flesh is of no avail? No, he said “the” flesh is of no avail.

• Is Jesus’ flesh of no avail? No!

• The Lord is perfect and sinless. His flesh is holy and pure. His flesh and spirit rose from the dead. Was his flesh on the cross of no help or benefit? Jesus is referring to “our” sinful flesh. The Lord is saying, it is no help or benefit to feed “our” flesh that dies and withers away. “His” resurrected flesh and blood feeds our spirit (soul), which gives life.

• Consuming his flesh and blood feeds our spirit (soul) which gives life, not our sinful flesh which is of no avail. We transform into the Body of Christ by spiritually being fed, so we too rise from the dead.

https://truthcampaign.org/truth-campaign-2/

 

[Truthcampaign.org]

<<<Tell me what you believe in John 6>>>

What particular passage in John 6 are you asking what I believe?

Tong
R1311

From my website:

Did the disciples leave because Jesus taught, to “truly believe” in him, required supernatural faith that many disciples did not have?

YES!

The Lord does not just want a relationship with you. He wants “intimacy” with you! We are all made for intimacy. There are studies that show if babies are not held, they can die. We are made for intimacy. It’s extremely intimate when spouses give their entire bodies to each other which create these beautiful babies. We are all intimate human beings.

Our intimate God came into this world as an intimate baby. How awesome is that! In John chapter 6, Jesus took intimacy one big step further. By consuming the Bread of Life, we transform into the Body of Christ. Our intimate God wants to “literally” dwell within each and everyone of us.

In the Bread of Life Discourse, Jesus is talking about the requirement to have supernatural faith. His disciples were not “believing” in his supernatural teachings. Many disciples said, “this saying is hard, who can accept it.”(60). Then Jesus said, “what if you see the son of man ascend to where he was before?” (62) Contextually, why would Jesus say this? Is ascending to heaven incomprehensible? Yes! So is bread becoming literal flesh. It is of the miraculous, and that is the obvious point Jesus makes in verse 62.

Supernatural faith means to believe beyond scientific understanding or laws of nature; of the miraculous similar to his supernatural birth and the multiplying of bread and fish. Many disciples lacked in supernatural faith and therefore left him and went back to their former ways of living.

Consuming his flesh and blood feeds our spirit (soul) which gives life, not our sinful flesh which is of no avail. We transform into the Body of Christ by spiritually being fed, so we too rise from the dead.

https://truthcampaign.org/truth-campaign-6/

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Hi Barney,

So this is the main bases for your belief that Jesus was speaking figuratively. After Jesus just got done explaining seven times to eat this flesh (even tearing and gnaw on it; in the greek) and three times to drink his blood or you will have no eternal life, he comes back and says just joking. I was speaking metaphorically, and then allows his disciples to leave on a misunderstanding. This does not make sense.

............

Was Jesus speaking symbolically in John chapter 6:63? If so, why did the disciples stop following Jesus?

Some say this verse confirms that Jesus was speaking symbolically with regard to the Bread of Life Discourse in John chapter 6. Does this verse confirm that Jesus in fact was speaking symbolically?

Verse 63: “It is the spirit that gives life, while “the” flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.”

• What are the words he just spoke? Several times Jesus spoke, eat my flesh (7) and drink my blood (3) to obtain eternal life.

• What does “no avail” mean? It means “no help or benefit.”

• Did Jesus say “my” flesh is of no avail? No, he said “the” flesh is of no avail.

• Is Jesus’ flesh of no avail? No!

• The Lord is perfect and sinless. His flesh is holy and pure. His flesh and spirit rose from the dead. Was his flesh on the cross of no help or benefit? Jesus is referring to “our” sinful flesh. The Lord is saying, it is no help or benefit to feed “our” flesh that dies and withers away. “His” resurrected flesh and blood feeds our spirit (soul), which gives life.

• Consuming his flesh and blood feeds our spirit (soul) which gives life, not our sinful flesh which is of no avail. We transform into the Body of Christ by spiritually being fed, so we too rise from the dead.

https://truthcampaign.org/truth-campaign-2/

Jesus was being figurative throughout that sixth chapter of John and they didn't understand what Jesus was saying and Jesus knew they weren't really trying to understand him they were not about to understand spiritual things they were materialistic. Jesus explained things very in verses 26-42 of John chapter 6 yet the Jews showed they had no faith in him. Also anyone who knows the scriptures know that literally drinking blood is against the law covenant. So yes Jesus was speaking figuratively.

 

[Truthcampaign.org]

Jesus was being figurative throughout that sixth chapter of John and they didn't understand what Jesus was saying and Jesus knew they weren't really trying to understand him they were not about to understand spiritual things they were materialistic. Jesus explained things very in verses 26-42 of John chapter 6 yet the Jews showed they had no faith in him. Also anyone who knows the scriptures know that literally drinking blood is against the law covenant. So yes Jesus was speaking figuratively.

If he was speaking figuratively, then the greatest teacher ever misled his very own disciples. Why would he allow his disciples to leave on a wrong interpretation?

Any divine command that comes later modifies divine commands that came earlier. When Jesus declared all foods clean (Mark 7:19), his command superseded the earlier command that certain foods be regarded as unclean (LV 11:1-8). If Jesus today commands us to drink his blood, his command supersedes any prior command concerning drinking blood.

“The blood is the life,” as the Torah taught the Jews, and the life of a creature belongs to God. Hence the Jews were to pour the blood out on the earth, not because it was too vile but because it was too sacred. They were to seek their life, not from any creature, but from God himself. How fitting then that when Jesus (Who is the Life) comes we are commanded to drink his blood (Mt 26:27–28). His is the blood we not only may but must drink if we are to have life in us (Jn 6:53).