Is the messiah the father himself in flesh?

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Jane_Doe22

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Yes, but again, you have distinctly defined three separate persons. And, yes, you are correct, we all know what a person is, ...and yet you undermine the definition in your explanation. Persons are a singular consciousness, regardless of their respective ontologies. You are a person, as I am a person, we are autonomous of each other, definitively in will, but currently also in action and purpose. No one can deny this definition.
But, as far as purpose is concerned, even the three musketeers were one in purpose, and all Christians are mandated to become one, as Jesus and God were one.
In the garden, Christ prayed to the Father, "Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done." (Luke 22:42)

I ask you:
Whom is Christ talking to here? Is He talking to Himself?
Who's will is being done?

My answers are: Christ isn't talking Himself, He's talking to a different person- the Father. And Christ carries out the will of the Father.
They are two different persons, but united in that one will. They are one. And yes, we are likewise command to surrender our flawed wills/whims to the Father's perfect will.

Please tell me that you are aware of the inconsistencies and implausibilities in what you stated, ..at least, so far?
Thanks!
I don't find them to be inconstant or implausible at all. And with all possible respect, I find the Athanasian Creed's approach of "substance" to be very problematic.
 

sho

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In the beginning of the bible. In Genesis. Until the verse three. There are only three "things" metioned.
First: god
Second: spirit
Third: word

1. In the beginning God(first) created the heavens and the earth.
2. ...and the Spirit(second) of God was hovering over the waters.
3. And God said, .Let there be light(the word, third) And there was light.


First God is mentioned, then his spirit and as last his word. God Spirit Word= Creation
The Bible clearly says that the Messiah existed before the world, and he even created everything. So one of these three "things" must be the Messiah.
But what is God, what is spirit and what is his word? If we know the answers to these questions, then and only then do we know who or what the Messiah is.
 

sho

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But what is God, what is spirit ....?
This is my answer:
The bible says, God is a spirit. So if God is a spirit, God must be the spirit himself. If the holy spirit is the spirit of the father, the holy spirit must be the father himself. If the holy spirit is another person and he is not the father, how does it fit? It's not logical because the conclusion would be that there are actually two gods. The father is a spirit and the holy spirit is a spirit, both are according to the bible God, but if they are not same person. It has to mean: 2 spirits=2 gods.
So God is for sure only one spirit and this spirit is the father who is sometimes called the holy spirit.
 

Ronald Nolette

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No trinity, but just one God who became flesh?

Nope ! Haven't read all the others, but this is an ancient heresy known as trimodalism aka one God who showed HImself in three different modes or people.

Jesus spoke of the Father and the Spirit. The Father and the Spirit were present after Jesus came out of the water when John baptized Him.

So there is only one God who is expressed in three spearate and eternal beings- the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
 

101G

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Nope ! Haven't read all the others, but this is an ancient heresy known as trimodalism aka one God who showed HImself in three different modes or people.

Jesus spoke of the Father and the Spirit. The Father and the Spirit were present after Jesus came out of the water when John baptized Him.

So there is only one God who is expressed in three spearate and eternal beings- the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
the Father is the Holy Spirit, as well as the son. Father and son are only title of the Holy Spirit.

there was only one presence at the Baptism of the Lord Jesus.

A. the apperance of the dove is the HOly Spirit.

B. the apperance of the Man the Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit diversified in flesh

that's it. many say the voice was the Father's error, the bible never say that. people "assume" that lie. so if it was the Father voice post book chapter and verse to that fact.


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101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

Ronald Nolette

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the Father is the Holy Spirit, as well as the son. Father and son are only title of the Holy Spirit.

there was only one presence at the Baptism of the Lord Jesus.

A. the apperance of the dove is the HOly Spirit.

B. the apperance of the Man the Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit diversified in flesh

that's it. many say the voice was the Father's error, the bible never say that. people "assume" that lie. so if it was the Father voice post book chapter and verse to that fact.


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101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

So according to you, Jesus was being deceptive when He taught the disiples to pray to teh Father, that the Father and HIm were one, and that He was going back to the father, and when He said He would send the Holy Spirit? HHe could have simply said He was the only god in the flesh! Why do you thinkHe needed mans help to edit the Scriptures!
 
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101G

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So according to you, Jesus was being deceptive when He taught the disiples to pray to teh Father, that the Father and HIm were one, and that He was going back to the father, and when He said He would send the Holy Spirit? HHe could have simply said He was the only god in the flesh! Why do you thinkHe needed mans help to edit the Scriptures!
the Father and the Son is a "Diversity" with each other.. (smile), so yes, while in flesh as a man pray to his "Spirit" which is in heaven, the Father, the Holy Ghost.

now who sent the Holy Spirit? lets see.

A. Jesus. scripture, John 15:26 "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:"

or was it,

B. the Father who sent the Holy Spirit. scripture, John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

well Ronald who sent the Holy Spirit. but before you answer, two scriptures that you need to read before you answer... ok.

#1. John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."

#2. Revelation 5:6 "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth."

ok Ronald who sent the Holy Spirit?. Name please.

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101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

Ronald Nolette

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the Father and the Son is a "Diversity" with each other.. (smile), so yes, while in flesh as a man pray to his "Spirit" which is in heaven, the Father, the Holy Ghost.

now who sent the Holy Spirit? lets see.

A. Jesus. scripture, John 15:26 "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:"

or was it,

B. the Father who sent the Holy Spirit. scripture, John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

well Ronald who sent the Holy Spirit. but before you answer, two scriptures that you need to read before you answer... ok.

#1. John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."

#2. Revelation 5:6 "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth."

ok Ronald who sent the Holy Spirit?. Name please.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

Both the Father and Son sent teh Spirit!

Anyone reading SCripture see three separate persons not one person who changes identity like we change clothes!
 
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101G

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Both the Father and Son sent teh Spirit!

Anyone reading SCripture see three separate persons not one person who changes identity like we change clothes!
ERROR, only one sent the Spirit, listen, Revelation 5:6 "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth."

Now Ronald who is this SENT into the Earth? read it again, "stood a Lamb as it had been slain" meaning some one who died and now risen. so who is it Ronald.

and when you answer that then we will know who sent the Holy Spirit..... (smile).

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101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

101G

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if you're having a little trouble I suggest you read your commentary, or commentaries to help you out... (smile).

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101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

101G

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yes modalism/oneness is heresy
well anyone can answer the question.... (smile).

I Just love this, Revelation 5:6 "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth."

Christophnay, maybe you can shed some light on who this is here in Revelation chapter 5, the Lamb... (smile). help a brother out.

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101G

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@Christophany, @Ronald

there is no math involved? have you read your commentaries on the verse? ..... (smile).

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101G

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Well I don't like to keep people in the dark, but this time........ why not... John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;"
John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."

Revelation 5:6 "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth."

if one cannot get that now then they are still DEAD.

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101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

historyb

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I am sure there will be only one throne. And the one who will sit on it is the son, because he is God in flesh. The father who is not flesh and has therefore no body cannot sit anywhere because he is invisible, but the son is the visible image of the father.

No the Son is separate from the Father. One God in three persons and to be a Christian one must accept this truth. You say show me Scripture because you think everything has to be in there when it does not. As Christ was Baptized God the Father said "Behold, this is my Son with whom I am well pleased". At God the Son's baptism all three persons of the Trinity were present. Your heretical position will not stand, your position was condemned at a Church council in 321 AD.
 

ChristisGod

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No the Son is separate from the Father. One God in three persons and to be a Christian one must accept this truth. You say show me Scripture because you think everything has to be in there when it does not. As Christ was Baptized God the Father said "Behold, this is my Son with whom I am well pleased". At God the Son's baptism all three persons of the Trinity were present. Your heretical position will not stand, your position was condemned at a Church council in 321 AD.
And in this Creed as well

The Athanasian Creed- 500 ad
This creed is named after Athanasius (A.D. 293-373), the champion of orthodoxy against Arian attacks on the doctrine of the trinity. Although Athanasius did not write this creed and it is improperly named after him, the name persists because until the seventeenth century it was commonly ascribed to him. It is not from Greek (Eastern), but from Latin (Western) origin, and is not recognized by the Eastern Orthodox Church today. Apart from the opening and closing sentences, this creed consists of two parts, the first setting forth the orthodox doctrine of the trinity, and the second dealing chiefly with the incarnation and the two-natures doctrine. The translation above was adopted by the CRC Synod of 1988.

Whoever desires to be saved should above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and unbroken will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity,
neither blending their persons
nor dividing their essence.
For the person of the Father is a distinct person,
the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,
their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.
The Father is uncreated,
the Son is uncreated,
the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is immeasurable,
the Son is immeasurable,
the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

The Father is eternal,
the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings;
there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;
there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty,
the Son is almighty,
the Holy Spirit is almighty.
Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord,
so catholic religion forbids us
to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
The Son was neither made nor created;
he was begotten from the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers;
there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller;
in their entirety the three persons
are coeternal and coequal with each other.

So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity
and their unity in their trinity.

Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.

But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.

Now this is the true faith:

That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.

He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time;
and he is human from the essence of his mother,
born in time;
completely God, completely human,
with a rational soul and human flesh;
equal to the Father as regards divinity,
less than the Father as regards humanity.

Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however,
not by his divinity being turned into flesh,
but by God's taking humanity to himself.
He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence,
but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh,
so too the one Christ is both God and human.

He suffered for our salvation;
he descended to hell;
he arose from the dead;
he ascended to heaven;
he is seated at the Father's right hand;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic(universal) faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.
 
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DNB

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In the garden, Christ prayed to the Father, "Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done." (Luke 22:42)

I ask you:
Whom is Christ talking to here? Is He talking to Himself?
Who's will is being done?

My answers are: Christ isn't talking Himself, He's talking to a different person- the Father. And Christ carries out the will of the Father.
They are two different persons, but united in that one will. They are one. And yes, we are likewise command to surrender our flawed wills/whims to the Father's perfect will.


I don't find them to be inconstant or implausible at all. And with all possible respect, I find the Athanasian Creed's approach of "substance" to be very problematic.
Yes, I agree with everything that you said in the above post, absolutely. And, just to explain, I'm against any deification of Jesus or the Holy Spirit (as an autonomous person). So, I categorically reject the Athanasian Creed also, and all the Creeds formulated at the Ecumenical Councils.
But, previously, you stated that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit each were God, and each were individual persons, and yet, that there is only one God. How can this logically be, without subscribing to polytheism?
 

ChristisGod

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Yes, I agree with everything that you said in the above post, absolutely. And, just to explain, I'm against any deification of Jesus or the Holy Spirit (as an autonomous person). So, I categorically reject the Athanasian Creed also, and all the Creeds formulated at the Ecumenical Councils.
But, previously, you stated that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit each were God, and each were individual persons, and yet, that there is only one God. How can this logically be, without subscribing to polytheism?
then its anathema according to the church.............
 
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