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ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
Irrelevant as Jesus like He said in John 2 still raised Himself from the dead. He said it 2 times in John 2 and John 10.
So we see the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit together as the One God raised Jesus from the dead. According to the whole of Scripture who raised Jesus from the dead?
Romans 6:4 teaches that the Father raised Jesus from the dead.
John 2:19-21; 10:17,18 proclaims the Son raised Himself from the dead.
Romans 8:11 proclaims the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead.
And Acts 3:26, 13:30, 17:30,31; 1 Thess. 1:9,10; Heb. 13:20 reveal that only God could raise Jesus from the dead.
Therefore the whole of Scripture reveals the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in the unity as God were responsible for raising Jesus from the dead. You cannot refute this.
Our Blessed Trinity at work.
Amen !
Prayer Warrior
Well-Known Member
You're not exactly right about this if you're responding to what @Jane_Doe22 said. The Mormons technically believe in more than one "god."
Do Mormons believe in the Trinity? | GotQuestions.org
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101G
Well-Known Member
GINOLJC, to all
first thanks for the reply, second, error on your part. this is exacitly what I been saying all along, people putting their own spin on the scriptures. and in doing so they shoot their own self in the foot. 1 Timothy 6:16 "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."
the "Who" here is the Lord Jesus, and the poster ignorantly states, "That statement seems to be saying that Jesus is the source of human immortality". well God don't need immortality, and the angels are not dying off.. one by one... (smile).. lol. so since he's the source of immortality, he's the only one who has it. for IMMORTALITY means, the ability to live forever; eternal life. and the Word "ONLY" here is used as an Adjective, meaning, alone of its or their kind; single or solitary. and "ALONE" means, having no one else present. BINGO. do you know what that means? there is no other person, or person(s) involved. so that kills any three person.
ALL THREE? (see above), this is how you expose false doctrine. if the poster would have just said, ok, Jesus only gives humans eternal life, but he had to add the other two, and got exposed in the lie again. if the verse would have have said "They" only had immortality, then we all could have packed our bags and went home and shut our mouths. but the VERSE said only "ONE" person have Etermal LIFE. but add the other so-called person, that just prove the lie more clearly.
see when you add to the word of God you put the spiritual noose around your own neck.
it's just amazing to what extent people will go and do and even try to change the word of God into a lie .... based on their "OWN" opinion. not what God say, but what they think God mean. it's just amazing what people will do to hang onto an Idol. it's just mind blowing.
PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
I think that you jumped to way too many conclusions there. Not to mention the utter absurdity of what you are professing. We do not see any efficacy in Christ's sacrifice or resurrection, if there is no human involved in the atonement. By definition, there is no sacrifice, if Jesus had nothing to lose by offering himself as an oblation to God, if he were immortal and death posed no threat to him. And, man's faith and hope is void if no human has been raised from the dead. This is elementary, Christian Soteriology 101, Christophany?
The juxtapositions below, between man and Jesus, clearly reflect and explain the affinity that we have with Jesus - humanity. And, how man's hope is effectuated by the raising of a human being - Jesus, the first-born from the dead.
1 Corinthians 15:12-22
15:12. Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13. But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14. and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15. Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17. and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19. If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied. 20. But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (nicknamed "Mormons") believe in ONE God, 3 divine persons. The difference between this and theology stated in the Athanasian Creed is that the Athanasian Creed states that they are one through a shared substance and LDS Christians believe that they are one through unity. Both views are indeed monotheism, albeit not the super-simple monotheism like in Islam.
You and I have been over this many times.
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101G
Well-Known Member
thanks for the reply, second you have one problem, Jesus is the Father Isaiah 9:6. and by him, the Father, JESUS, diversifed in flesh in a G2758 κενόω kenoo state, upon resurrection, he was GIVEN what he HAD, before. supportive scripture, John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." (smile)... I had "WITH?" .... now justbyfaith, do we need to school you again on the term "WITH" again?
people, people, my God how hard is it to understand, listen, Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me." "me" is MINE own ARM
so, who is God's "OWN" ARM? answer, Isaiah 53:1 "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?"
Isaiah 53:2 "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him." (God's OWN ARM is a "HE" himself that is revealed unto us. lets make it plain, the next verse)
Isaiah 53:3 "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not." (People, this is God's OWN ARM, he, he, is despised and rejected of men, who is this? thank you, next verse),
Isaiah 53:4 "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted."
Isaiah 53:5 "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."
if you don't know who this is by NOW YOU'RE AS DEAD AS A DOOR KNOB. God's own ARM is God himself in flesh, Jesus the Christ. and this is done by SHARING his ownself in flesh... which is called "Diversity".
see with "diversity" I will eat your lunch , breakfast, and dinner every time. the scriptures are not going to change for you nor me, it is written.
as said the ARM of God is God himself "shared"... EQUALLY in natural human flesh, per Phil 2:6, but in a G2758 κενόω kenoo state, Per Phil 2:7 & 8. but once glorified, that ARM is the SAME as before, "WITH" all POWER. just as John clearly puts it, and let us help you to understand. John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word (ARM of God) and the Word (ARM of GOD) was with God, (same Person) and the Word (ARM of GOD) was God." BINGO, it's the same one person only shared in flesh.
if one is still that dense, then let the DEAD awake from their sleep of ignorance.
PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
No sho, the juxtaposition in the first verse of 'Holy Spirit' and 'power of the Most High', clearly denote that by miraculous means, God the Father, impregnated the womb of Mary, so that she may conceive a human being. The miraculous means is merely God's gift and extension of Himself, to both empower and animate humans. Mary's womb was acted upon by the 'power of the Most High', and a human can only give birth to another human, it's called genetics. And only humans, as opposed to deities, can be born, mutate (grow), learn, eat, sleep, defecate, and die.
One's visibility, in the way that you have justified it, is only valid while on earth. For the physiology of a human, has absolutely no purpose or efficacy in heaven - 'stomach and food, food and stomach, God will do away with both'. Therefore, your substantiation of Jesus being seated on a throne, and the Father not, bears no weight. The eternal state of either one of them, is nothing like what you described.
Hi JD, sorry, just for the sake of clarification - I've always wondered what was LDS Christology - could you explain what 'one in unity' means (it seems a redundant statement)?
One God - 3 divine persons, is trinitarianism, that the three persons share the same essence - deity. I didn't detect a differentiation in your above explanation, for both parties will say 'one in unity'. Did you mean unity of purpose and will?
Thanks!
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
The Doctrine of God:
Historic Christianity
The one God is a Spirit who is the personal, eternal, infinite Creator of all that exists. He is the only God and necessary for all other things to exist. He exists eternally as a Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. (see Deut. 6:4; Isa. 43:10; 44:6-8; Matt. 28:19; John 4:24; 17:3)
Mormonism
God (Heavenly Father) is an exalted man with a physical body of flesh and bone. LDS founder Joseph Smith said, “If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible-I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345). The trinity is denied with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost seen as three separate entities. “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us” (Doctrine and Covenants [D&C] 130:22).
hope this helps !!!
Historic Christianity
The one God is a Spirit who is the personal, eternal, infinite Creator of all that exists. He is the only God and necessary for all other things to exist. He exists eternally as a Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. (see Deut. 6:4; Isa. 43:10; 44:6-8; Matt. 28:19; John 4:24; 17:3)
Mormonism
God (Heavenly Father) is an exalted man with a physical body of flesh and bone. LDS founder Joseph Smith said, “If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible-I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345). The trinity is denied with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost seen as three separate entities. “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us” (Doctrine and Covenants [D&C] 130:22).
hope this helps !!!
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
The Doctrine of Jesus Christ:
Historic Christianity
Jesus Christ was the virgin born God incarnate who existed in all time with the Father and Holy Spirit in the eternal Trinity. As a man He possessed two natures -human and divine. He lived a sinless life and willingly died on the cross as a sacrifice for the sin of all humanity. (see John 1:1-18; 8:56-59; Phil. 2:6-11; Col. 1:13-22; Heb.1:3; 13:8)
Mormonism
Jesus was the spiritual “first born” Son of God in the preexistence. “Every person who was ever born on earth was our spirit brother or sister in heaven. The first spirit born to our heavenly parents was Jesus Christ, so he is literally our elder brother” (Gospel Principles [GP], p. 11).”And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn” (D&C 93:21). He is also the “only begotten” physical offspring of God by procreation on earth. “Jesus is the only person on earth to be born of a mortal mother and an immortal father. That is why he is called the Only Begotten Son” (GP, p. 64). His atonement (death and resurrection) provides immortality for all people regardless of their faith. “Christ thus overcame physical death. Because of his atonement, everyone born on this earth will be resurrected . . . This condition is called immortality. All people who ever lived will be resurrected, ‘both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous’ (The Book of Mormon [BOM], Alma 11:44)” (GP, p. 74). (See GP, pp. 11, 17-19, 61-77.)
Historic Christianity
Jesus Christ was the virgin born God incarnate who existed in all time with the Father and Holy Spirit in the eternal Trinity. As a man He possessed two natures -human and divine. He lived a sinless life and willingly died on the cross as a sacrifice for the sin of all humanity. (see John 1:1-18; 8:56-59; Phil. 2:6-11; Col. 1:13-22; Heb.1:3; 13:8)
Mormonism
Jesus was the spiritual “first born” Son of God in the preexistence. “Every person who was ever born on earth was our spirit brother or sister in heaven. The first spirit born to our heavenly parents was Jesus Christ, so he is literally our elder brother” (Gospel Principles [GP], p. 11).”And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn” (D&C 93:21). He is also the “only begotten” physical offspring of God by procreation on earth. “Jesus is the only person on earth to be born of a mortal mother and an immortal father. That is why he is called the Only Begotten Son” (GP, p. 64). His atonement (death and resurrection) provides immortality for all people regardless of their faith. “Christ thus overcame physical death. Because of his atonement, everyone born on this earth will be resurrected . . . This condition is called immortality. All people who ever lived will be resurrected, ‘both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous’ (The Book of Mormon [BOM], Alma 11:44)” (GP, p. 74). (See GP, pp. 11, 17-19, 61-77.)
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
Question: "Do Mormons believe in the Trinity?"
Answer: Mormons say they believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. However, Mormon doctrine denies the Trinity, teaching that the Father, Son, and Spirit do not comprise one God.
According to Mormonism, Jesus is a created being, the first spirit to be born of the Father (Mormon Doctrine, p.129) and a celestial mother (Mormon Doctrine, p.516). Therefore, Jesus could not be the eternal God or part of an eternal Trinity. Mormons also teach that both the Father and the Son are men with bodies of flesh and bone (Doctrine & Covenants 132:20; Articles of Faith, p 38); as two separate people, the Father and the Son cannot be considered “one.”
Mormons also teach that Jesus is just one of many sons of God. Jesus is referred to specifically as “a son of God” in the Book of Mormon (Alma 36:17). Lucifer, or the devil, is another son of God in Mormon theology (Mormon Doctrine, p.163). Further, Mormonism teaches that the number of gods is increasing. Any man on Earth can one day become the god of another planet and populate it with children born to him from his eternal wife (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 345-354). Any one of those children can later become a god in his own right (Doctrine & Covenants 132:20). Thus, there is not just One God, triune or not; there are many, many gods (Book of Abraham 4:3).
Mormonism’s founder, Joseph Smith, clearly rejected the Trinity. He wrote, “Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God. I say that is a strange God. . . . All are crammed into one God according to sectarianism [the Christian faith]. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God—he would be a giant or a monster” (Teachings, p. 372). Other Mormon writers such as James Talmage have confirmed Mormon denial of the Trinity (Articles of Faith, p.35).
It is a mysterious doctrine, but the Bible does teach that there is One God eternally existing in three Persons (Matthew 28:19). Because Mormonism holds a distinctly unbiblical view of God, the Mormon Church should be considered a religion distinct from Christianity rather than a part of it.
(Editor’s note: many of the references in our articles on Mormonism are Mormon publications, such as Mormon Doctrine, Articles of Faith, Doctrines of Salvation, History of the Church, Doctrine and Covenants, and so forth. Others are from the Book of Mormon itself, e.g., books such as 1 Nephi, 2 Nephi, and Alma.)gotquestions
hope this helps !!!
Answer: Mormons say they believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. However, Mormon doctrine denies the Trinity, teaching that the Father, Son, and Spirit do not comprise one God.
According to Mormonism, Jesus is a created being, the first spirit to be born of the Father (Mormon Doctrine, p.129) and a celestial mother (Mormon Doctrine, p.516). Therefore, Jesus could not be the eternal God or part of an eternal Trinity. Mormons also teach that both the Father and the Son are men with bodies of flesh and bone (Doctrine & Covenants 132:20; Articles of Faith, p 38); as two separate people, the Father and the Son cannot be considered “one.”
Mormons also teach that Jesus is just one of many sons of God. Jesus is referred to specifically as “a son of God” in the Book of Mormon (Alma 36:17). Lucifer, or the devil, is another son of God in Mormon theology (Mormon Doctrine, p.163). Further, Mormonism teaches that the number of gods is increasing. Any man on Earth can one day become the god of another planet and populate it with children born to him from his eternal wife (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 345-354). Any one of those children can later become a god in his own right (Doctrine & Covenants 132:20). Thus, there is not just One God, triune or not; there are many, many gods (Book of Abraham 4:3).
Mormonism’s founder, Joseph Smith, clearly rejected the Trinity. He wrote, “Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God. I say that is a strange God. . . . All are crammed into one God according to sectarianism [the Christian faith]. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God—he would be a giant or a monster” (Teachings, p. 372). Other Mormon writers such as James Talmage have confirmed Mormon denial of the Trinity (Articles of Faith, p.35).
It is a mysterious doctrine, but the Bible does teach that there is One God eternally existing in three Persons (Matthew 28:19). Because Mormonism holds a distinctly unbiblical view of God, the Mormon Church should be considered a religion distinct from Christianity rather than a part of it.
(Editor’s note: many of the references in our articles on Mormonism are Mormon publications, such as Mormon Doctrine, Articles of Faith, Doctrines of Salvation, History of the Church, Doctrine and Covenants, and so forth. Others are from the Book of Mormon itself, e.g., books such as 1 Nephi, 2 Nephi, and Alma.)gotquestions
hope this helps !!!
Unity in purpose, will, goodness, glory, justice, mercy, power, and all of those good Godly things! I don't find anything in scripture about God's "essence"/"substance" and find many that many people use different definitions of it.
Jesus Christ is the 100% divine Son of God. He has always been, created the Earth, was born of a virgin, suffered & died for our sins, and rose on the third day. He is a different person than the Father and Spirit (like Christ isn't praying to himself in the garden), but they are ONE God.
Both of these post are completely inaccurate and the quotes are junk put through a fun-house mirror. I'll take a minute to address this stuff in more detail if you care for accuracy.
101G
Well-Known Member
let's get back on topic shall we...."Is the messiah the father himself in flesh?"
I say yes, in a shared state of diversity.
OT, Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
NT, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"Philippians 2:7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:"Philippians 2:8 "And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."
these verse point to the Father is the messiah in flesh.
PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
I say yes, in a shared state of diversity.
OT, Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
NT, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"Philippians 2:7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:"Philippians 2:8 "And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."
these verse point to the Father is the messiah in flesh.
PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
101G
Well-Known Member
question, how can the son be, "The everlasting Father", if separate persons?
PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Hey, if I'm shooting myself in the foot, so be it! I don't have a grip on everything Scripture. However, I was just giving you my undeveloped thoughts on the matter. It is talking about Jesus, and it is talking about immortality, which seems to me to be about *mortals* who live forever. This would *not* apply to the other Persons of the Trinity, who were not and never will be *mortal.*
Yes, only one Person of the Trinity provided the redemption by his own physical sacrifice for sinners. God the Father only did this *through Jesus,* and not as a separate Person!
Do you realize you're standing against 2000 years of orthodox Christian doctrine? I would feel uncomfortable if I were you! You're not representing Christianity, but only your own logic about it. True Christian orthodoxy claims that there are 3 distinct Persons in the Trinity, and that they each share the same Divine Substance. Period. All else is modalism, which is almost always viewed as heretical in the Christian Church.
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