OSAS anyone? Opinions on Once Saved Always Saved

[amadeus]

You say, faith is not knowledge. I think faith is more sure than knowledge. Faith itself is the evidence of what we don't see. We walk by faith and not by sight because the truths we live by are not seen. Our faith can be misplaced, but I think God has made life simple. Trust Jesus for life. And all comes from that.

I do believe in knowledge, God's knowledge, as being more sure than faith. Believers in God and His Son do have knowledge, but as I see it they are unable to correctly draw a line in themselves between that which is by faith and that which is by knowledge [God's, not man's, which causes confusion for anyone depending too heavily on man's knowledge.]. The only Way to God's knowledge is through faith. As we walk the pathway of faith, trusting in Him, what saith it? Here I see the end of our faith through Jesus:

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Heb 12:2

When our faith is finished/ended... then we will see clearly or face to face: We shall see Him as He is. No more faith, but knowledge. No more type or shadow, but Reality!

God says "that you may know you have eternal life", how do we go on from that to say we cannot know?

Much love!

Of course we may "know", but where do you suppose we find such knowledge or perhaps better said who is it that would or could give us such knowledge? God alone! But... I suspect that more than a few who claim to already have it have been convinced of it by some man or men. Who heard from God on it?

 

[ChristisGod]

This translation of John 5:24 is inaccurate. It puts the verse in contradiction to Romans 4:10-12, 2 Corinthians 5:10.

The more accurate translation is the kjv:

Jhn 5:24, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

once again the KJV is incorrect

Do you ever look up the Greek words before you make your statements about right and wrong ?

Strongs 2920
krisis: a decision, judgment
Original Word: κρίσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: krisis
Phonetic Spelling: (kree'-sis)
Definition: a decision, judgment
Usage: judging, judgment, decision, sentence; generally: divine judgment; accusation.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2920: κρίσις
judgment; i. e. opinion or decision given concerning anything, especially concerning justice and injustice, right and wrong;

Below are the uses of the word revealing the bias and inconsistency of the KJV

Matthew 5:21 N-DFS
KJV: shall be in danger of the judgment:

Matthew 5:22 N-DFS
KJV: in danger of the judgment: and

Matthew 10:15 N-GFS
KJV: in the day of judgment, than for that

Matthew 11:22 N-GFS
KJV: at the day of judgment, than for you.

Matthew 11:24 N-GFS
KJV: in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Matthew 12:18 N-AFS
KJV: he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

Matthew 12:20 N-AFS
KJV: he send forth judgment unto

Matthew 12:36 N-GFS
KJV: in the day of judgment.

Matthew 12:41 N-DFS
KJV: shall rise in judgment with this

Matthew 12:42 N-DFS
KJV: in the judgment with

Matthew 23:23 N-AFS
KJV: [matters] of the law, judgment,

Matthew 23:33 N-GFS
KJV: can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Mark 6:11 Noun-GFS
KJV: in the day of judgment, than for that

Luke 10:14 N-DFS
KJV: Sidon at the judgment, than for you.

Luke 11:31 N-DFS
KJV: in the judgment with

Luke 11:32 N-DFS
KJV: in the judgment with

Luke 11:42 N-AFS
KJV: and pass over judgment and the love

John 3:19 N-NFS
KJV: this is the condemnation, that light

John 5:22 N-AFS
KJV: all judgment unto the Son:

John 5:24 N-AFS
KJV: come into condemnation; but is passed

John 5:27 N-AFS
KJV: to execute judgment also,

John 5:29 N-GFS
KJV: unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 5:30 N-NFS
KJV: and my judgment is just;

John 7:24 N-AFS
KJV: judge righteous judgment.

John 8:16 N-NFS
KJV: judge, my judgment is true:

 

[justbyfaith]

If a person believes they can lose their salvation, then this simply means they believe that they have more power to lose it, then God has to keep it.
This is a root of pride, and the deception of Self Righteousness.

See, God, started your salvation in you, and He said, in Philippians 1:6....that He Himself will be "faithful" to complete it.
Jesus said that He, and not you, but He, is the "author and FINISHER of your Faith".

So, there you have God saying He will FAITHFULLY complete your salvation, and Jesus said He will finish your faith.

The Legalist, feels and believes that they have more power than God or Christ, who are "One", and so, this pride exists within them which leads them to dispute, openly, in public, God and Christ = who said they will take care of your Salvation and your Faith, and not you.
You are to take care of your Discipleship.
Thats your part.

You are to have FAITH that God will do what He said, and Christ will do what He said, regarding your Salvation and your Faith.
If you dont, then you are deceived.
All Legalists are deceived.

It seems that you never really quote scripture. Is this because you desire that people would simply accept your teaching as authoritative over and above scripture? Why don't you back up your statements with holy scripture? Is it because your statements have no scripture that substantiates what you are saying?

Are you desiring that people would just accept your statements as authoritative or accept them because what you say tells them what their itching ears want to hear? And that therefore, you stand as a teacher who does not accept the Berean call or the right of the believer who hears what you are teaching to apply to it the Berean principle?

I am trying to help you here...

I think that you would have much more effectiveness in your ministry if you gave reference to the scriptures that back up your claims.

If there are none, then that would indicate that you are not teaching correctly according to the word.

But if there is scripture that supports what you are saying, it is expedient for you to quote it or at least reference it.

 

[amadeus]

What does this mean to you?

Something more than not promoting yourself over others?

Much love!

To me it means going to the very bottom in all that I believe or, yes, think that I know. I received it from these verses:

"When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;
And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.
But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted" Luke 14:8-11

For me this allows God to change or replace anything which I have been holding onto... It is a way to escape from any delusion I may have had regarding God and the things of God.

 

[justbyfaith]

once again the KJV is incorrect

Do you ever look up the Greek words before you make your statements about right and wrong ?

Strongs 2920
krisis: a decision, judgment
Original Word: κρίσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: krisis
Phonetic Spelling: (kree'-sis)
Definition: a decision, judgment
Usage: judging, judgment, decision, sentence; generally: divine judgment; accusation.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2920: κρίσις
judgment; i. e. opinion or decision given concerning anything, especially concerning justice and injustice, right and wrong;

Below are the uses of the word revealing the bias and inconsistency of the KJV

Matthew 5:21 N-DFS
KJV: shall be in danger of the judgment:

Matthew 5:22 N-DFS
KJV: in danger of the judgment: and

Matthew 10:15 N-GFS
KJV: in the day of judgment, than for that

Matthew 11:22 N-GFS
KJV: at the day of judgment, than for you.

Matthew 11:24 N-GFS
KJV: in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Matthew 12:18 N-AFS
KJV: he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

Matthew 12:20 N-AFS
KJV: he send forth judgment unto

Matthew 12:36 N-GFS
KJV: in the day of judgment.

Matthew 12:41 N-DFS
KJV: shall rise in judgment with this

Matthew 12:42 N-DFS
KJV: in the judgment with

Matthew 23:23 N-AFS
KJV: [matters] of the law, judgment,

Matthew 23:33 N-GFS
KJV: can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Mark 6:11 Noun-GFS
KJV: in the day of judgment, than for that

Luke 10:14 N-DFS
KJV: Sidon at the judgment, than for you.

Luke 11:31 N-DFS
KJV: in the judgment with

Luke 11:32 N-DFS
KJV: in the judgment with

Luke 11:42 N-AFS
KJV: and pass over judgment and the love

John 3:19 N-NFS
KJV: this is the condemnation, that light

John 5:22 N-AFS
KJV: all judgment unto the Son:

John 5:24 N-AFS
KJV: come into condemnation; but is passed

John 5:27 N-AFS
KJV: to execute judgment also,

John 5:29 N-GFS
KJV: unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 5:30 N-NFS
KJV: and my judgment is just;

John 7:24 N-AFS
KJV: judge righteous judgment.

John 8:16 N-NFS
KJV: judge, my judgment is true:

Here is the Strong's definition (from blue letter bible):

G2920:
κρίσις krísis, kree'-sis; decision (subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension, a tribunal; by implication, justice (especially, divine law):—accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.

How do you account for the contradiction that I pointed out to you; between John 5:24 (in your translation) and Romans 14:10-12, 2 Corinthians 5:10?

Your translation says that if we believe we will not come into judgment; that is obviously false according to the verses I am presenting here.

Are you contending that there are valid contradictions in the Bible?

 

[ChristisGod]

Here is the Strong's definition:

κρίσις krísis, kree'-sis; decision (subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension, a tribunal; by implication, justice (especially, divine law):—accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.

How do you account for the contradiction that I pointed out to you; between John 5:24 (in your translation) and Romans 14:10-12, 2 Corinthians 5:10?

Are you contending that there are valid contradictions in the Bible?

no just in the KJV and its translators.

The original Greek and Hebrews Scriptures are infallible not the translations.

do you understand that difference ?

 

[justbyfaith]

Do you ever look up the Greek words before you make your statements about right and wrong ?

Yes, I had already looked up the Greek definition of the word.

 

[justbyfaith]

no just in the KJV and its translators.

The original Greek and Hebrews Scriptures are infallible not the translations.

do you understand that difference ?

How do you explain the contradiction between what your translation says in John 5:24 and what the Bible says in Romans 14:10-12 and 2 Corinthians 5:10?

Are you contending that there are valid contradictions in the Bible?

 

[ChristisGod]

How do you explain the contradiction between what your translation says in John 5:24 and what the Bible says in Romans 14:10-12 and 2 Corinthians 5:10?

Are you contending that there are valid contradictions in the Bible?

no contradictions just your perception or interpretation.

spell out what you think is a contradiction

 

[amadeus]

I'd like to take a rare moment to make a self-defense, which I genenally like to stay away from.

"Many people" weren't addressed this post, I was, and I'd like to reassure you that I am a serious and open minded student of the Word, and desire to know all truth and wisdom from the Scriptures. In fact, I'm trusting in Jesus that He is teaching me.

If you are of the mind that I'm ignoring some of the passages of Scripture, again, I'd like to reassure you that, well, what I think to be the primary reason for the difference in our views is that I can't ignore the Scriptures, and when I come to terms with what it says, this is what it says.

Best as I can understand it!

Respector of persons . . . yes, God is not a respector of persons, and all will be judged . . . and yet . . . not all will perish. Some will have life. And you either attribute that fact to what we do, or what He did, or some combination between those two choices.

I believe it's what Jesus did in entirety. I receive eternal life IN Him. Others believe that Jesus starts us out, but we complete the race, racing to eternal life, which we receive as the reward of our good behavior, kindly intents, pleasing attitude.

In all honesty I don't really know how to describe the means by which you believe you receive rebirth and eternal life.

Much love!

Thank you for you honesty here. I understand what you believe and when it comes down to it, I could present an argument in favor of it myself based on what you have said and what I have read in the scriptures, but it is not what I believe that God has shown me.

This and the Trinity and the Holy Ghost are some of those things, which people believe differently and get at times quite heated on... I have never easily gotten angry, but believe me when I say there are other places just as bad as anger where I have been. Charity is truly the answer to these conflicts and you are taking hold of that. Don't stop and don't change because someone else says that you should, but always keep control over your own tongue [or typing fingers]. God may use a person to deliver a message, but the interpretation, the real and correct interpretation, must come from God.

Sometimes I see in these battles over OSAS, Trinity, Holy Ghost and others a the test for God not on the specifics of those doctrines, but rather on the persons involved and their charity, or the lack thereof for and/or toward others! Help us all dear Lord!

 

[ChristisGod]

Thank you for you honesty here. I understand what you believe and when it comes down to it, I could present an argument in favor of it myself based on what you have said and what I have read in the scriptures, but it is not what I believe that God has shown me.

This and the Trinity and the Holy Ghost are some of those things, which people believe differently and get at times quite heated on... I have never easily gotten angry, but believe me when I say there are other places just as bad as anger where I have been. Charity is truly the answer to these conflicts and you are taking hold of that. Don't stop and don't change because someone else says that you should, but always keep control over your own tongue [or typing fingers]. God may use a person to deliver a message, but the interpretation, the real and correct interpretation, must come from God.

Sometimes I see in these battles over OSAS, Trinity, Holy Ghost and others a the test for God not on the specifics of those doctrines, but rather on the persons involved and their charity, or the lack thereof for and/or toward others! Help us all dear Lord!

Is it the word Trinity that is the problem ?

is ok that the Son is being denied as God ?

should that be something in which we contend over yet do it in love/charity ?

are you ok with that ?

 

[justbyfaith]

no just in the KJV and its translators.

The original Greek and Hebrews Scriptures are infallible not the translations.

do you understand that difference ?

Do you believe that the educated Greek and Hebrew scholar has an edge over the common believer in being able to get the unadulterated message of the word of God?

The common people heard Jesus gladly; but the educated scribes and Pharisees rejected Him.

Therefore it would be a mistake to rely on the educated Greek and Hebrew scholar to tell us what is the reality. Much prayer was divested into giving us a translation in the English language (the kjv) so that we would not have to rely on the educated Greek and Hebrew scholar.

God is both sovereign and Omnipotent and loving...therefore He is not going to fail to give to the common people a translation that gives forth His unadulterated message...and if there are any counterfeits, He wouldn't fail to have some of His people start a controversy concerning the veracity of His translation and it superiority over and above the watered-dwon translations; in order that people might gravitate towards the narrow path of receiving the message of the kjv which is given to every one who has English as a language; though narrow, it is in fact expediently given to all....

Whereas the meaning of the original languages is given only to the educated Greek and Hebrew scholar and to those who would have the cult-like mentality of accepting their word as authoritative concerning the meaning of the original languages.

 

[ChristisGod]

Do you believe that the educated Greek and Hebrew scholar has an edge over the common believer in being able to get the unadulterated message of the word of God?

The common people heard Jesus gladly; but the educated scribes and Pharisees rejected Him.

Therefore it would be a mistake to rely on the educated Greek and Hebrew scholar to tell us what is the reality. Much prayer was divested into giving us a translation in the English language (the kjv) so that we would not have to rely on the educated Greek and Hebrew scholar.

God is both sovereign and Omnipotent and loving...therefore He is not going to fail to give to the common people a translation that gives forth His unadulterated message...and if there are any counterfeits, He wouldn't fail to have some of His people start a controversy concerning the veracity of His translation and it superiority over and above the watered-dwon translation; in order that people might gravitate towards the narrow path of receiving the message of the kjv which is given to every one who has English as a language; though narrow, it is in fact expediently given to all....

Whereas the meaning of the original languages is given only to the educated Greek and Hebrew scholar and to those who would have the cult-like mentality of accepting their word as authoritative concerning the meaning of the original languages.

Do you think the average joe can translate Hebrew and Greek into English ?

Can you ?

How do you know what is or is not a good translation ?

How would you decide on a given verse if the KJV, NASB, ESV or NIV is more accurate ?

 

[amadeus]

Is it the word Trinity that is the problem ?

is ok that the Son is being denied as God ?

should that be something in which we contend over yet do it in love/charity ?

are you ok with that ?

What is, I believe, worse than being wrong on one of these doctrines, is to allow yourself to get upset because someone else so insistently disagrees with you. If we cannot discuss differences with love/charity, perhaps it would be better to remain silent. Continuing a discussion/argument simply because we believe we are on the "right" side is not a good reason as only God gives any increase. Remember that your opponent also believes that he is on the "right" side! Solomon wrote about this 3,000 years ago!

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:12

 

[justbyfaith]

no contradictions just your perception or interpretation.

spell out what you think is a contradiction

Already did but you didn't see the edit...I'll repeat it here.

In your translation it says that those who believe shall not come into judgment.

This is obviously false if you take Romans 14:10-12 and 2 Corinthians 5:10 into account. For these verses teach that even believers will be judged. I may add 1 Corinthians 3:11-15.

However, it is no contradiction if those who believe will, instead, not come into condemnation.

 

[justbyfaith]

Do you think the average joe can translate Hebrew and Greek into English ?

Can you ?

How do you know what is or is not a good translation ?

How would you decide on a given verse if the KJV, NASB, ESV or NIV is more accurate ?

I simply believe that we can decide on this very easily because we are not unaware of the devil's schemes.

If I were the devil, I would change or take away from scripture (in my translations) the things that damage me the most.

I find that the kjv is the standard that keeps in the things that the Holy Spirit wants to minister to His people; and that other translations take out not just words, but phrases, sentences, paragraphs, and even entire passages from the Bible.

Personally, I don't want to be cheated out of something that the Holy Spirit might want to say to me (my eternal destiny may depend on that word or phrase that is removed out of some translations).

 

[justbyfaith]

How would you decide on a given verse if the KJV, NASB, ESV or NIV is more accurate ?

I tend to believe that the kjv is ultimately superior to other translations.

However, when in doubt, the Holy Spirit would be the deciding factor (see 1 John 2:20).

For example, I believe that the NIV's translation in Jude 1:3-4 of grace as "a license for immorality" is useful and according to the Spirit's desire concerning what I might want to preach as concerning doctrine...while the kjv's translation of it as "lasciviousness" is also not invalid.

 

[marks]

Who heard from God on it?

And that is the question, isn't it?

So in the meantime, I endeavor to encourage you in the faith. God is able to make each of us stand.

Much love!

 

[marks]

To me it means going to the very bottom in all that I believe or, yes, think that I know. I received it from these verses:

"When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;
And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.
But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted" Luke 14:8-11

For me this allows God to change or replace anything which I have been holding onto... It is a way to escape from any delusion I may have had regarding God and the things of God.

A love for the truth!

My greatest concern regarding Scripture is to misunderstand it, though I trust the Holy Spirit to lead me. One of my great pleasures is to find where I am contradicted by the Bible, because then I am closer to understanding.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I tend to believe that the kjv is ultimately superior to other translations.

However, when in doubt, the Holy Spirit would be the deciding factor (see 1 John 2:20).

For example, I believe that the NIV's translation in Jude 1:3-4 of grace as "a license for immorality" is useful and according to the Spirit's desire concerning what I might want to preach as concerning doctrine...while the kjv's translation of it as "lasciviousness" is also not invalid.

Lasciviousness just isn't a word people use much anymore, though I agree on the KJV.

Much love!