The Trinity definition

[APAK]

@marks
Yes, you're right APAK. Not to mention, taking things into context will elucidate the fact that such salutatory and dedicatory expressions were used in almost all the epistles, several times . As @Christophany always does, as you know, only exposes a few selected verses, which in this particular case and context, is the landslide minority. They build there theology on all the exceptions to the rules, defying the fundamental hermeneutical principal of tota scriptura. Their exegesis is shameful and embarrassing.

Romans 1:1

1:1. Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,

Romans 1:7

1:7. to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:1-3

1:1. Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2. To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours: 3. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:1-3

1:1. Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout Achaia: 2. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,

Galatians 1:1-3

1:1. Paul, an apostle ( not sent from men nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead), 2. and all the brethren who are with me, To the churches of Galatia: 3. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,

Ephesians 1:1-3

1:1. Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

Philippians 1:2

1:2. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:1-4

1:1. Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, 2. To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father. 3. We give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4. since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have for all the saints;

1 Thessalonians 1:1-3

1:1. Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace. 2. We give thanks to God always for all of you, making mention of you in our prayers; 3. constantly bearing in mind your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father,

2 Thessalonians 1:1-2

1:1. Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: 2. Grace to you and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 1:1-2

1:1. Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Savior, and of Christ Jesus, who is our hope, 2. To Timothy, my true child in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Timothy 1:1-2

1:1. Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, according to the promise of life in Christ Jesus, 2. To Timothy, my beloved son: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus 1:4

1:4. To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

Philemon 1:3

1:3. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

James 1:1

1:1. James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings.

1 Peter 1:3

1:3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

2 Peter 1:2

1:2. Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;

2 John 1:3

1:3. Grace, mercy and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

Jude 1:1

1:1. Jude, a bond-servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ:

Yes I believe I've figured out his selective moves and timely switches that suit his agenda and when he is cornered.
Thanks.
I do try to reveal the truth in scripture as I know it. If corrected and warranted then I listen and carefully review it. It only makes one become more knowledgeable for ones own spirit and to share it with others to edify and to make others more knowledgeable in their understanding of scripture. Odd though, there are many that are not interested in doing any Bible Study at all. They would rather promote only their pre-chosen list of verses as part of their own agendi.

From my experience, trinitarians or modalists and variants of these two major camps are the main culprits.

 

[DNB]

Yes I believe I've figured out his selective moves and timely switches that suit his agenda and when he is cornered.
Thanks.
I do try to reveal the truth in scripture as I know it. If corrected and warranted then I listen and carefully review it. It only makes one become more knowledgeable for ones own spirit and to share it with others to edify and to make others more knowledgeable in their understanding of scripture. Odd though, there are many that are not interested in doing any Bible Study at all. They would rather promote only their pre-chosen list of verses as part of their own agendi.

From my experience, trinitarians or modalists and variants of these two major camps are the main culprits.

yes, inherently so - one cannot comprehensively and astutely defend such a notion both Biblically and rationally. They are obligated to break all the rules of logic and hermeneutics in order to substantiate such a preposterous claim. Invariably, it always comes down to rabbit-hole arguments, or miscorrelated and misinterpreted passages. No glory anywhere in this putrid nonsense.

 

[Truther]

who scripture identifies as God in the flesh, God incarnate as per Matthew 1:23, John 1:1-14 , John 10:33, John 14:9, John 20:28, 1 Timothy 3:16, Colossians 1:19, Colossians 2:9, Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6

And I have numerous other Scriptures that call the Son- God/YHWH. At-least another 20 plus.

hope this helps !!!

Paul's comparison of the 2 Adam's was skewed if one was man and one was God.

Or, your concept is skewed.

Fact is, both Adam's Paul mentioned were individuals with a God...one passed the test the other failed at.

God DID NOT become the last Adam to fix His mess, but God made the last Adam(another human Adam) to fix our own mess.

 

[justbyfaith]

JBF...
I think you have introduced me to this road of your home already. I really don't want to go down it again. You did read my previous replies on how I and you view LORD and Lord etc..?

I really suggest you do some serious research on the names representing YHWH in the OT and how He and his Son are referred to, in the NT. I've spent numerous hours over years doing such a thing ..it is eye-opening, indeed.
You might want to change your current view of the subject after knowing this subject in more detail.

There are differences and similarities of these symbols of YHWH/YHVH/Yahweh, Adon, Adonai(y) , El, Elohi(y)m, Elahh, Sabaoth, Shaddai, LORD, Lord, ‘My Lords,’ Master, master, anointed one, Christ..etc..it might make you see some missing parts in your arguments.

And actually the somewhat confusing areas should be found in the OT and not the NT..

Bless you,

APAK

I think that I will pass on any study that might lead me away from the words of knowledge, thank you (see Proverbs 19:27 (kjv)).

If any kind of "studying" would lead me to deny Jesus Christ's Deity, I would be faithful to avoid that study...

Because if anyone denies the Deity of Christ unto their dying moment, they will die in their sins (John 8:24).

That's not something I want for myself.

It may be something you want for yourself; but it isn't something that I want for myself.

 

[justbyfaith]

@marks
Yes, you're right APAK. Not to mention, taking things into context will elucidate the fact that such salutatory and dedicatory expressions were used in almost all the epistles, several times . As @Christophany always does, as you know, only exposes a few selected verses, which in this particular case and context, is the landslide minority. They build there theology on all the exceptions to the rules, defying the fundamental hermeneutical principal of tota scriptura. Their exegesis is shameful and embarrassing.

Romans 1:1

1:1. Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,

Romans 1:7

1:7. to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:1-3

1:1. Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2. To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours: 3. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:1-3

1:1. Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout Achaia: 2. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,

Galatians 1:1-3

1:1. Paul, an apostle ( not sent from men nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead), 2. and all the brethren who are with me, To the churches of Galatia: 3. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,

Ephesians 1:1-3

1:1. Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

Philippians 1:2

1:2. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:1-4

1:1. Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, 2. To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father. 3. We give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4. since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have for all the saints;

1 Thessalonians 1:1-3

1:1. Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace. 2. We give thanks to God always for all of you, making mention of you in our prayers; 3. constantly bearing in mind your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father,

2 Thessalonians 1:1-2

1:1. Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: 2. Grace to you and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 1:1-2

1:1. Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Savior, and of Christ Jesus, who is our hope, 2. To Timothy, my true child in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Timothy 1:1-2

1:1. Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, according to the promise of life in Christ Jesus, 2. To Timothy, my beloved son: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus 1:4

1:4. To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

Philemon 1:3

1:3. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

James 1:1

1:1. James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings.

1 Peter 1:3

1:3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

2 Peter 1:2

1:2. Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;

2 John 1:3

1:3. Grace, mercy and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

Jude 1:1

1:1. Jude, a bond-servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ:

The Greek word for "and" in those verses ("kai") being translatable as "even"

 

[ChristisGod]

Yes, no Jew will touch it with a 10ft pole, ...nor Muslims, Buddhists, Sikhs, Hindus, or anyone else with any reverence for God.
Was it contrived to do so, I don't think so. It would not have such a mass appeal if there were no perceived substantiation for it. For all intents and purposes, Jesus is a god to all who worship him, for God placed him as such. This, I believe, is where the confusion lies. For all the authority and power that the Father bestowed upon him, and seated him at his right-hand side, there is no one higher than Christ except for God the Father.
Those that lack wisdom, cannot make the differentiation between conferred kingship, and intrinsic Lordship.

That is because all those groups are blind. God revealed that He is Plural from Genesis 1 throughout Revelation 22.

hope this helps !!!

 

[APAK]

yes, inherently so - one cannot comprehensively and astutely defend such a notion both Biblically and rationally. They are obligated to break all the rules of logic and hermeneutics in order to substantiate such a preposterous claim. Invariably, it always comes down to rabbit-hole arguments, or miscorrelated and misinterpreted passages. No glory anywhere in this putrid nonsense.

Copy that...and it never ends does it?

 

[ChristisGod]

Copy that...and it never ends does it?

you fellas are a riot speak for yourselves I can defend the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirt is God just fine from Scripture.

But since the Holy Spirits job is to GLORIFY the Son that is my focus as well as per Jesus teaching in John 14-17.

The issue is unitarians deny Christ and are full of contradictions concerning Him.

He is called the following which can only be said of One who is God. No man has these Attributes period

Creator
Before all created things
In Him all things exist
the angels obey Him and are His to command
all heaven worships Him including the angels
the Alpha and Omega
The First and the Last
The Beginning and the End
The Only Sovereign and Lord
The Lord who is over ALL
There is salvation in no other NAME
King of Kings
Lord of Lords
Emmanuel
To see Him is to see the Father
He is Equal with the Father
All the fulness of the Godhead dwells in Him
He is Sinless and Forgives all sin
He is the one and only sacrifice for all sin
All Scripture points to Him and is about Him
He sent the Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit only testifies about the Son
Jesus brings remembrance of all things to His Disciples
He is with all who gather in His name
He has all power and authority in heaven and earth
He sustains all things by the word of His power

And I just rattled these off the top of my head in 2 minutes. I can continue for hours.............................

so much for your false unitarian jesus who is only a man ............ eh ?

hope this helps !!!

 

[DNB]

The Greek word for "and" in those verses ("kai") being translatable as "even"

Minority text do not make the rule.

 

[DNB]

That is because all those groups are blind. God revealed that He is Plural from Genesis 1 throughout Revelation 22.

hope this helps !!!

One of these days, Christophany, I am going to send you a book on sound Biblical hermeneutics. Hopefully it may teach how not to correlate passages where no affinity lay, and how not to eisegete texts.

 

[ChristisGod]

One of these days, Christophany, I am going to send you a book on sound Biblical hermeneutics. Hopefully it may teach how not to correlate passages where no affinity lay, and how not to eisegete texts.

hilarious my library is full of books on the topic maybe I should send you one of my 60 plus books on hermenuetics/apologetics.

 

[jaybird]

I think that I will pass on any study that might lead me away from the words of knowledge, thank you (see Proverbs 19:27 (kjv)).

If any kind of "studying" would lead me to deny Jesus Christ's Deity, I would be faithful to avoid that study...

Because if anyone denies the Deity of Christ unto their dying moment, they will die in their sins (John 8:24).

That's not something I want for myself.

It may be something you want for yourself; but it isn't something that I want for myself.

John 8 24 does not say that.

24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

it says you must believe Jesus is "he".

you guys have a really bad habit of this, you cant just insert what ever you want into the scripture, the Almighty says not to do that.

 

[DNB]

Copy that...and it never ends does it?

No, of course not, it can't - their whole premise is ludicrous to begin with.
And also no, and this is the mystery, what in the world is the appeal here? ...God's manner in which He separates the sheep from the goats.

 

[ChristisGod]

John 8 24 does not say that.

24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

it says you must believe Jesus is "he".

you guys have a really bad habit of this, you cant just insert what ever you want into the scripture, the Almighty says not to do that.

do you know the meaning of ego eimi ?

 

[DNB]

John 8 24 does not say that.

24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

it says you must believe Jesus is "he".

you guys have a really bad habit of this, you cant just insert what ever you want into the scripture, the Almighty says not to do that.

It's not a really bad habit, it's an inherently bad habit. In order to justify their ridiculous and implausible exegesis, they are obligated to break all the rules of sound hermeneutics. Again, this is an inherent issue that they will never be able to circumvent, and is always apparent from their first line of argumentation - rabbit hole reasoning, never fundamental analysis.

 

[Mattathias]

...if he was that impetuous to, unfoundedly, call you a liar, chances are his unreasonableness does not end there.

That may prove to be the case but I choose to think of it as a knee jerk reaction to something he’s never heard before.

 

[DNB]

hilarious my library is full of books on the topic maybe I should send you one of my 60 plus books on hermenuetics/apologetics.

Well, you see, that's exactly where my perplexity lay, how can someone who is clearly as studied as yourself, succumb to such inherently bad hermeneutics and exegesis? I am convinced that you are biased and indoctrinated.
In other words, you feel that you are able to cite all the perceived passages that support your claim, but, if I'm not mistaken, I have yet to hear you explain where the glory lies in your conclusion, ...on all facets of Christian theology?

 

[ChristisGod]

Well, you see, that's exactly where my perplexity lay, how can someone who is clearly as studied as yourself, succumb to such inherently bad hermeneutics and exegesis? I am convinced that you are biased and indoctrinated.
In other words, you feel that you are able to cite all the perceived passages that support your claim, but, if I'm not mistaken, I have yet to hear you explain where the glory lies in your conclusion, ...on all facets of Christian theology?

We see Moses (Moshe) describing God using a present form of "to be" (you are) in relation to past tense participles to describe how God exists in the present while existing before creation. Compare to the following:

Jesus used a present tense form of "to be" in relation to a past tense participle to describe how he was present before Abraham's birth while he was speaking to the Jews. Had Moses said something to the effect "Before the Mountains were formed... you were God", that would just indicate God preexisted the mountains and not really speak of the concept of God self-existing creation in of itself. Likewise, had Jesus said something to the effect "Before Abraham... I was (Or I have been)", Jesus would likewise just indicate preexistence and not really speak of the concept of Jesus self-existing creation. The usage of pronouns is important here to describe how God must be self-existent in order to describe his omnipotence and omnipresence. We therefore see a parallel between how Jesus claimed to presently exist in the past and how a person called God claimed to presently exist in the past thus describing an equal prerogative of deity.

John 8:24 and 8:58 are the same in the Septuagint with Exodus 3:14. It is the exact same Ego Eimi, the I Am who was with Moses and now speaking in John 8.

hope this helps !!!

 

[DNB]

do you know the meaning of ego eimi ?

Yes, of course, everyone does, it is one of the most common verb conjugations in the entire world of languages - it is from the infinitive To Be, it means 'I am'. As in: I am tall, I am German, I am hungry, I am fast, I am tired, I am going to the store, .... even, I am he, as in, I am the one in question.
What, you didn't know that Christophany?

 

[DNB]

That may prove to be the case but I choose to think of it as a knee jerk reaction to something he’s never heard before.

I have a feeling that I may know who you are talking about, therefore, I am still skeptical. Good luck either way.