The Trinity definition

[jaybird]

Ouch, Aced it again...how's country living these days?

glad you agree ap.

im trying to relocate to Ireland or Italy. i dont care for the culture here.

 

[APAK]

glad you agree ap.

im trying to relocate to Ireland or Italy. i dont care for the culture here.

wow...not to influence you or anything,...are things better over there....and not to be political, there are loads of socialists and leftists over there that would love to stop you from preaching the good word....any way it's is none of my business....I hope all stays well with you in your possible travels and keep the faith I see you have...it is strong....Bless you brother.. APAK

Back to the preaching then....One Father and one Son.....

 

[Mattathias]

I quoted their own source which they cannot argue against as it is in their catechism and official teaching of the CC.

Thanks. I posted a link to the catechism and someone (not sure if the person is Catholic or Protestant) accused me of practicing witchcraft for doing it, alleging that I changed the meaning!

So if they disagree now its with their own Church and its teachings. This should end the discussion over there.

It should, and maybe it will, but it’s been my personal experience on other public forums that it won’t. I truly hope that it does.

 

[ChristisGod]

Thanks. I posted a link to the catechism and someone (not sure if the person is Catholic or Protestant) accused me of practicing witchcraft for doing it, alleging that I changed the meaning!



It should, and maybe it will, but it’s been my personal experience on other public forums that it won’t. I truly hope that it does.

I linked them to their own source so now they are desperate and it proves the person does not even know their own church's teaching on the topic of the 2 natures in Christ.

 

[jaybird]

wow...not to influence you or anything,...are things better over there....and not to be political, there are loads of socialists and leftists over there that would love to stop you from preaching the good word....any way it's is none of my business....I hope all stays well with you in your possible travels and keep the faith I see you have...it is strong....Bless you brother.. APAK

Back to the preaching then....One Father and one Son.....

the US today is so different than the US when i was younger. all we do here is work and sleep, my kids go to school and come home, its not just us, its everywhere here. i want to go somewhere where there is more social activity on a bigger scale, like it used to be here.

edit - 10 years back i would not be discussing theology online, i would be out of my house talking face to face with people. my last bible study was 5 years back and only one other person showed up, it was just the two of us. the US culture is to over focused on working, making money, shopping and consumption and i dont enjoy any of those things.

 

[APAK]

the US today is so different than the US when i was younger. all we do here is work and sleep, my kids go to school and come home, its not just us, its everywhere here. i want to go somewhere where there is more social activity on a bigger scale, like it used to be here.

I understand that point....with this COVID thing now, whether you believe in it or it's at least political hoax, are there going to be much more social activities for the kids? There are new lockdowns in both Ireland and Italy. They are predicting/planning a new COVID-21..if you want to believe this or not.....for a 'permanent' lockdown sometime next year..the outlook is looking bleak for everyone, including the kids....just my take from what I read, understand and hear....

 

[ChristisGod]

the US today is so different than the US when i was younger. all we do here is work and sleep, my kids go to school and come home, its not just us, its everywhere here. i want to go somewhere where there is more social activity on a bigger scale, like it used to be here.

edit - 10 years back i would not be discussing theology online, i would be out of my house talking face to face with people. my last bible study was 5 years back and only one other person showed up, it was just the two of us. the US culture is to over focused on working, making money, shopping and consumption and i dont enjoy any of those things.

the weekly small groups in our home for the past 20 plus years have been between 8-15 people on a consistent basis.

 

[APAK]

the US today is so different than the US when i was younger. all we do here is work and sleep, my kids go to school and come home, its not just us, its everywhere here. i want to go somewhere where there is more social activity on a bigger scale, like it used to be here.

edit - 10 years back i would not be discussing theology online, i would be out of my house talking face to face with people. my last bible study was 5 years back and only one other person showed up, it was just the two of us. the US culture is to over focused on working, making money, shopping and consumption and i dont enjoy any of those things.

Yes you are right ,,,,and you spoke of this a bit about Bible study a year or so ago with me...don't give up hope Jay...I too do not like the culture as you described...it's all over..and I'm not just saying this to place my hand on your shoulder in love or just for your friendship..again please do not despair... @Christophany says he gets many people in his abode....that should give you hope....move if you must but maybe not that far out or away...

 

[DNB]

Of course God's ways are not foolish...but the scripture is saying that they seem foolish to the ones who are perishing.

This would apply to you because you are going to die in your sins over your denial of Christ's Deity (John 8:24).



I am not a modalist. But neither am I a Tritheist.

I take the middle ground between these two in order to come to a clear understanding of the Trinity.

My doctrine does not qualify as modalism because I consider that there are in fact, three, distinct Persons within the Trinity.

Eph 3:3, How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Your first point is circular reasoning.
Your 2nd point sounds just as absurd as modalism, tritheism, trinitarianism, etc... Call it what you like, it's all convoluted nonsense.

 

[DNB]

In their culture, it was expected that Elijah was going to return.
When Jesus asked His disciples "Who do men say that I am?" - they answered "Elijah, or one of the prophets". So your wild guess about no one gets indignant over a deluded person does not apply.
The Jews did indeed get indignant about Jesus, once were going to throw Him off a cliff, wanted to stone Him, etc.

And eventually got Rome to crucify Him.

we were talking about their desire to stone him in public.

 

[DNB]

They made it clear what they thought, later, in John 10:31-33.

Not in the passage that we were referring to.

 

[DNB]

It’s taught, but seldom at church. As a non-trinitarian, shouldn’t you want it taught? Doesn’t a teaching which “invariably raises more questions than it can possibly answer” present you with a golden opportunity to present an easily understood alternative for people to consider?

Not entirely, Paul did not appreciate all the heresies that constantly plagued the churches that he established. It was a continuous struggle for him to have the immature believers retain the true faith. I understand your point but it's not practical, it doesn't outweigh the effort required to detoxify such heresies. Absurdities as the trinity, should not get past the front door. It has poisoned Christianity for so long that now we have grown men claiming that they can comprehend the incomprehensible, as Christophany does, so that it has now become almost impossible to get him to recognize the utterly folly in his exegesis and theology, almost impossible.

 

[Mattathias]

I understand your point ...

Thank you.

… but it's not practical, it doesn't outweigh the effort required to detoxify such heresies.

Isn’t it necessary for a person to hear what a doctrine actually teaches before he/she can make an intelligent decision about whether the doctrine being entertained is or isn’t heresy?

I would like to see “Jesus is not a human person” thundered with regularity from every trinitarian pulpit. I would like to see “Jesus is not a human person” whispered with regularly in every trinitarian Sunday School class. (Until people hear that they haven’t heard what trinitarianism actually teaches about Jesus.)

The average trinitarian isn’t hearing it in the churches they attend and hasn’t studied it for himself/herself. As an ex-trinitarian, I don’t have easy access to trinitarian pulpits and trinitarian Sunday School classrooms.

It does take a lot of effort. It also requires thick skin, a tender heart and a gentle hand. Anything less, in my opinion, is both impractical and ineffective.

 

[DNB]

Thank you.



Isn’t it necessary for a person to hear what a doctrine actually teaches before he/she can make an intelligent decision about whether the doctrine being entertained is or isn’t heresy?

I would like to see “Jesus is not a human person” thundered with regularity from every trinitarian pulpit. I would like to see “Jesus is not a human person” whispered with regularly in every trinitarian Sunday School class. (Until people hear that they haven’t heard what trinitarianism actually teaches about Jesus.)

The average trinitarian isn’t hearing it in the churches they attend and hasn’t studied it for himself/herself. As an ex-trinitarian, I don’t have easy access to trinitarian pulpits and trinitarian Sunday School classrooms.

It does take a lot of effort. It also requires thick skin, a tender heart and a gentle hand. Anything less, in my opinion, is both impractical and ineffective.

Again, interesting, ...but, it's almost like you're making a concession - since heresies will always abound, we must in all churches, elucidate exactly the precepts of the heresy, in order for people to ultimately see the Scriptural unsoundness of its teachings?
I find this to be extremely precarious, for example, why introduce children to things that are illicit, in order to hopefully instill an aversion in them towards it. Reverse psychology, practically. But this is dangerous, for as you know, some people never get out of their vices.

I heard RC Sproul Jr put it this way, in order to detect heresy, one must be thoroughly familiar with the truth. One cannot attempt to stay informed on all the heresies out there, even the up and coming ones. He went on to say that those in the counterfeit dept of the US Agency, do not study fakes, they inspect the real money thoroughly in order so that whatever is passed before them, they will know if it conforms to the authentic standard.

Heterodoxy must not be exposed to vulnerable people. You saw yourself how difficult it has become to correct the damage done.

 

[justbyfaith]

Call it what you like, it's all convoluted nonsense.

It's nonsense to those who are perishing.

 

[DNB]

As I said before you do not do context, as in 2 Peter 1:1b. Granvilles Sharp's rule does not work everywhere as you should know by now as you loved to spill out the law to me on the subject. You can give these other exceptions I hope? And this one is another exception.

If you bother to read past this one verse you will see the context support my claim, as I suggested to you do before.. It would be ridiculous to force a legalist rule BLINDLY, on both YHWH and his Son. You have no qualms in doing so I see. As I said before your intention is not to discover and understand scripture. It is to force you triune idol by what any means necessary, as in butchering 2 Peter 1:1b to be placed on your altar as a trophy of conquest.

Christo, this 2 Peter 1:1b is one of a few salutations that speak to two beings. It was common and customary to introduce to those of even Judean origin, to YHWH their Father AND their Christ. Do the other salutations then speak to one being as you are so convinced...you have to be consistent...

Look at Titus 2:13...one being is addressed or two....one being of course..Christ is our great god (not YHWH) and also our Saviour..he is our blessed hope, and the context after this verse supports it....CONTEXT is very important to consider, always. So why do you ignore the context before and after 2 Peter 1:1b? You know the answer of course. If you continue in this false reasoning, you can never understand 1 Peter 1 at all. You cut yourself off....you CANNOT delineate between the Father and the Son...it's a shame.

Let me bring you some support as if I really need it regarding 1 Peter 1:1b..a noted scholar..

"There is absolutely no reason to force this verse to make Jesus Christ into God. It is the opening verse of the epistle, and reading all of the epistles will show that it is customary in the New Testament to introduce both God and Christ at the opening of each one. Furthermore, it is through the righteousness of both God and Christ that we have received our precious faith. It was through God in that it was He who devised the plan of salvation and was righteous in His ways of making it available to us. It was through Christ in that by his righteous life he carried out the plan so that we can have what we now have. Both God and Christ had to be righteous in order for us to enjoy our current status in the faith, and we think the evidence is conclusive that they are both present in the verse..."

Broughton and Southgate, p. 202

@marks
Yes, you're right APAK. Not to mention, taking things into context will elucidate the fact that such salutatory and dedicatory expressions were used in almost all the epistles, several times . As @Christophany always does, as you know, only exposes a few selected verses, which in this particular case and context, is the landslide minority. They build there theology on all the exceptions to the rules, defying the fundamental hermeneutical principal of tota scriptura. Their exegesis is shameful and embarrassing.

Romans 1:1

1:1. Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,

Romans 1:7

1:7. to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:1-3

1:1. Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2. To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours: 3. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:1-3

1:1. Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout Achaia: 2. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,

Galatians 1:1-3

1:1. Paul, an apostle ( not sent from men nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead), 2. and all the brethren who are with me, To the churches of Galatia: 3. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,

Ephesians 1:1-3

1:1. Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

Philippians 1:2

1:2. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:1-4

1:1. Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, 2. To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father. 3. We give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4. since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have for all the saints;

1 Thessalonians 1:1-3

1:1. Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace. 2. We give thanks to God always for all of you, making mention of you in our prayers; 3. constantly bearing in mind your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father,

2 Thessalonians 1:1-2

1:1. Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: 2. Grace to you and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 1:1-2

1:1. Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Savior, and of Christ Jesus, who is our hope, 2. To Timothy, my true child in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Timothy 1:1-2

1:1. Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, according to the promise of life in Christ Jesus, 2. To Timothy, my beloved son: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus 1:4

1:4. To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

Philemon 1:3

1:3. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

James 1:1

1:1. James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings.

1 Peter 1:3

1:3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

2 Peter 1:2

1:2. Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;

2 John 1:3

1:3. Grace, mercy and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

Jude 1:1

1:1. Jude, a bond-servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ:

 

[DNB]

who is Lord and Savior in 2 Peter 1:11 ?

who is Lord and Savior in 2 Peter 3:18 ?

Quit isolating verses, Christophany, it shows a profound ignorance in exegeting Scripture.

 

[DNB]

A few minutes ago I was called a liar by a Catholic member of this forum for saying that trinitarianism teaches us “Jesus is not a human person” (he called it “patently false”) and advised me to “investigate whatever caused you to post such a lie”. In other words, he suggested that I study the topic.

This has been a common experience in my conversations with trinitarians - Catholic and Protestant alike.

I don’t think he’ll be persuaded by appeals to Protestant sources but I’ll post some Catholic sources for him to consider and see whether that will cause him to change his mind or not.

...if he was that impetuous to, unfoundedly, call you a liar, chances are his unreasonableness does not end there.

 

[DNB]

whoever you are speaking with, they are ignorant of History, the Doctrine and Scripture. Jesus Christ gets His Person from Hid Divine nature as God the Son. It was the 2nd Person of the Godhead who became Incarnate hence He is God in the flesh, Emmanuel etc......

Nestorianism
Nestorianism insisted that there were two natures but that there were also two persons: one divine and the other human. Rather than unifying Jesus, this view separated the person of Jesus along with his two natures.

Two natures of Jesus
The two natures of Jesus refers to the doctrine that the one person Jesus Christ had/has two natures, divine and human. In theology this is called the doctrine of the hypostatic union, from the Greek word hypostasis (which came to mean substantive reality). Early church figures such as Athanasius used the term "hypostatic union" to describe the teaching that these two distinct natures (divine and human) co-existed substantively and in reality in the single person of Jesus Christ. The aim was to defend the doctrine that Jesus was simultaneously truly God and truly man.

Historical development
The doctrine of the hypostatic union (the two natures of Jesus) was adopted as orthodox doctrine at the Council of Chalcedon in 451. Three major schools of theology were involved at the council: Alexandria, Antioch, and the West. The consensus of these three schools in the Chalcedonian Creed illustrates the catholicity (i.e. universality) of the ancient church. ^[1]^ The creed asserted two distinct natures, human and divine, and affirmed the one person of Jesus Christ.theopedia

hope this helps !!!

Don't use catholic or unanimous, Christophany. History does not always account for those who categorically rejected Chalcedon, ....and Nicaea, Ephesus, Constantinople, etc... There was an intimidation aspect also, as the emperor presided and had ulterior motives, and that the whole conversation was above every single person's head who attended the council.

 

[DNB]

doesn anyone else think the trinity may have been invented to separate Judaism from Christianity? you have to admit its very strange that Jews had no problem following Jesus and the 12, fast forward several hundred years when the trinity is being taught and now no Jew will touch the faith with a ten foot pole. even to this day you ask an orthodox Jew about being a Christian and the first thing they will tell you is they do not worship three gods.

Yes, no Jew will touch it with a 10ft pole, ...nor Muslims, Buddhists, Sikhs, Hindus, or anyone else with any reverence for God.
Was it contrived to do so, I don't think so. It would not have such a mass appeal if there were no perceived substantiation for it. For all intents and purposes, Jesus is a god to all who worship him, for God placed him as such. This, I believe, is where the confusion lies. For all the authority and power that the Father bestowed upon him, and seated him at his right-hand side, there is no one higher than Christ except for God the Father.
Those that lack wisdom, cannot make the differentiation between conferred kingship, and intrinsic Lordship.