God's Word does ""not"" teach that baptism is essential for salvation.

[Truther]

I was in the literal desert. Why argue?

Arizona?

 

[Gideons300]

To qualify for Romans one must go through Acts 2:38.

It is not a coincidence in the order the N.T. was placed for the reader, but deliberately done....Acts before Romans etc.

So if someone gets saved but for lack of teaching does not get baptized, then Romans and the truths it contains are not applicable to them? I prYyou do not misunderstand me. I am not arguing against the need for baptism. I am putting forth the truth that multitudes have simply had a ritual performed with no faith as to what the purpose of that ritual is. If that be the case, are they truly being baptized?

We must be careful not to just judge just on outer appearance so we can check off the box marked GET BAPTIZED. God looks at the heart of the believer. Amen?

blessings,

Gids

 

[Truther]

So if someone gets saved but for lack of teaching does not get baptized, then Romans and the truths it contains are not applicable to them? I prYyou do not misunderstand me. I am not arguing against the need for baptism. I am putting forth the truth that multitudes have simply had a ritual performed with no faith as to what the purpose of that ritual is. If that be the case, are they truly being baptized?

We must be careful not to just judge just on outer appearance so we can check off the box marked GET BAPTIZED. God looks at the heart of the believer. Amen?

blessings,

Gids

Saved before baptism?

Jesus said ..."and is baptized shall be saved".(Mark 16:16)

Peter said.... "be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins".(Acts 2:38)



Romans is an Epistle.

An Epistle is a letter to post salvation saints, not sinners.

Modern Christendom began skipping Acts centuries ago to get a "revival" crowd.

They read the 4 gospels to the crowds, skipped Acts, then gave sinners the saints' letters to read.

This is precisely how Christendom derailed during the reformation.

 

[friend of]

If water baptism was essential for salvation, why would Paul write in 1 Corinthians 1:14 "I thank God that I baptized none of you"?

That would mean that he's thanking God for not bringing converts all the way to Christ.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

If water baptism was essential for salvation, why would Paul write in 1 Corinthians 1:14 "I thank God that I baptized none of you"?

That would mean that he's thanking God for not bringing converts all the way to Christ.

It's just so obvious . . . isn't it? Whew . . . good luck with this battle. I'll leave it up to you guys! I'd rather talk about how the Brethren Love each other.

 

[Truther]

If water baptism was essential for salvation, why would Paul write in 1 Corinthians 1:14 "I thank God that I baptized none of you"?

That would mean that he's thanking God for not bringing converts all the way to Christ.

No, he was thanking God for letting others do the baptizing, so they would not think they were "of Paul".

He was smart.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You are correct.

I know that United Pentecostals believe otherwise.
They also believe you need to be speaking in tongues in order to be saved.
(I attended there for some time)

Fact is that many people don't have the opportunity to get water baptized,
for instance in hospitals.

The fellow next to Christ on the cross did not get baptized.

This is it: Believe upon the name of the Lord and you shall be saved.

However....To “believe in the Lord Jesus Christ” is much more than intellectual assent to the fact that He existed; it means that you place your trust, your faith, your expectant hope for being saved in who Jesus is and what He did for you.

Those are exceptions.

A little hint:
NEVER base your doctrines on the exception because there are exceptions to virtually EVERY rule.

Sorry Reggie, but here is how it happened to me in 1980.
In this order:

1. Born again.
2. Couple of months later Holy Spirit baptism with speaking in tongues.
3. Some time later: Water baptism.

You were born again at Baptism, per Jesus (John 3:5).

 

[Truther]

You are correct.

I know that United Pentecostals believe otherwise.
They also believe you need to be speaking in tongues in order to be saved.
(I attended there for some time)

Fact is that many people don't have the opportunity to get water baptized,
for instance in hospitals.

The fellow next to Christ on the cross did not get baptized.

This is it: Believe upon the name of the Lord and you shall be saved.

However....To “believe in the Lord Jesus Christ” is much more than intellectual assent to the fact that He existed; it means that you place your trust, your faith, your expectant hope for being saved in who Jesus is and what He did for you.

I prefer UPC as my home church.

Have you ever heard of the Search for Truth home Bible study course?

I taught that for decades.

 

[Gideons300]

Saved before baptism?

Jesus said ..."and is baptized shall be saved".(Mark 16:16)

Peter said.... "be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins".(Acts 2:38)



Romans is an Epistle.

An Epistle is a letter to post salvation saints, not sinners.

Modern Christendom began skipping Acts centuries ago to get a "revival" crowd.

They read the 4 gospels to the crowds, skipped Acts, then gave sinners the saints' letters to read.

This is precisely how Christendom derailed during the reformation.

So anyone who is not baptized is not saved. That is your belief?

Just trying to clarify.

thanks,

Gideon

 

[Triumph1300]

Salvation finds place on the moment we receive the spirit of God and are reborn in our spirit. You cannot state that he who is reborn into a new man and made spiritual alive through the Holy Spirit through faith, but is not yet baptized will therefore not be saved?

I was radically saved in 1980 and reborn out of a deep place of darkness in the world. My spirit came alive in Christ Jesus through the Holy Spirit, this was an incredible experience for me suddenly i communicated with God and experienced His love and presence inside of me, My live was from one moment upon the other transformed into a new man. But only later i was baptized in water.

Bread of Life, You would say that if I would have died in a car accident between it, I would not be saved?

Cornelius and his friends were filled with the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues before they were baptized in water (Acts 10:44-48). And if we read John 14:17 Jesus states that an unbeliever cannot receive the Holy Ghost, so with other words Cornelius and his friends must have been born again and been saved before their water baptism.

 

[Truther]

So anyone who is not baptized is not saved. That is your belief?

Just trying to clarify.

thanks,

Gideon

Yes.

Now, does that mean those that are not saved automatically go to hell?

No, I think baptism for salvation is an "insurance policy" to bypass the white throne judgement.

I am not much of a gambler, and like assurance upon my death.

 

[Truther]

Salvation finds place on the moment we receive the spirit of God and are reborn in our spirit. You cannot state that he who is reborn into a new man and made spiritual alive through the Holy Spirit through faith, but is not yet baptized will therefore not be saved?

I was radically saved in 1980 and reborn out of a deep place of darkness in the world. My spirit came alive in Christ Jesus through the Holy Spirit, this was an incredible experience for me suddenly i communicated with God and experienced His love and presence inside of me, My live was from one moment upon the other transformed into a new man. But only later i was baptized in water.You would say that if I would have died in a car accident between it, I would not be saved?

Cornelius and his friends were filled with the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues before they were baptized in water (Acts 10:44-48). And if we read John 14:17 Jesus states that an unbeliever cannot receive the Holy Ghost, so with other words Cornelius and his friends must have been born again and been saved before their water baptism.

No, Cornelius and kin were led to salvation by the Spirit of truth they just received, to lead them into all truth, when they were immediately baptized.

 

[Truther]

I was radically saved the Acts 2:38 way on Oct 7, 1979.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Salvation finds place on the moment we receive the spirit of God and are reborn in our spirit. You cannot state that he who is reborn into a new man and made spiritual alive through the Holy Spirit through faith, but is not yet baptized will therefore not be saved?

I was radically saved in 1980 and reborn out of a deep place of darkness in the world. My spirit came alive in Christ Jesus through the Holy Spirit, this was an incredible experience for me suddenly i communicated with God and experienced His love and presence inside of me, My live was from one moment upon the other transformed into a new man. But only later i was baptized in water.You would say that if I would have died in a car accident between it, I would not be saved?

Cornelius and his friends were filled with the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues before they were baptized in water (Acts 10:44-48). And if we read John 14:17 Jesus states that an unbeliever cannot receive the Holy Ghost, so with other words Cornelius and his friends must have been born again and been saved before their water baptism.

Ahhhh, yes, the "Cornelius" argument.
Once again, I must warn you - NEVER base your doctrines on the exception. Being born again is NOT about how we "feel". It is about having new life in Christ - on HIS terms.

Jesus 's command is that WATER and Spirit is what makes us born again. It's NOT up to US to deviate from HIS command.
Jesus has a response for those who believe that it is THEIR way or the highway . . .
Matt. 7:23
‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

 

[Truther]

Ahhhh, yes, the "Cornelius" argument.
Once again, I must warn you - NEVER base your doctrines on the exception. Being born again is NOT about how we "feel". It is about having new life in Christ - on HIS terms.

Jesus 's command is that WATER and Spirit is what makes us born again. It's NOT up to US to deviate from HIS command.
Jesus has a response for those who believe that it is THEIR way or the highway . . .
Matt. 7:23
‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Your doctrinal view of Acts 2:38...

Then Peter said to the adults that were baptized as babies, repent, and get rebaptized in the titles for the remission of sins you had since your infant baptism.

 

[Triumph1300]

All right..... You would say that if I would have died in a car accident between it, I would not be saved? And a member of Cornelius family who died between the two events would also be lost.

I would say my God is a just God.....

 

[BreadOfLife]

Your doctrinal view of Acts 2:38...

Then Peter said to the adults that were baptized as babies, repent, and get rebaptized in the titles for the remission of sins you had since your infant baptism.

My doctrinal view on Acts 2:39 includes the next verse as well:
Acts 2:38-39
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you AND FOR YOUR CHILDREN and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

And, because I an NOT a Scriptural cherry-picker who reads the bible OUT of its proper context - I understand that this ALSO includes the following verses . . .

Matt. 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, BAPTIZING them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of WATER and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Mark 16:16
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Col. 2:11-12
In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; and you were buried with him in BAPTISM, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead

1 Pet. 3:21
BAPTISM, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

 

[Mungo]

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the 1 requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. I believe Jesus.

I've never claimed that baptism is "absolutely essential for salvation". It is the normative way that God has given us. God can make exceptions if He chooses to, but we cannot make exceptions. To refuse baptism when it is possible is to disobey and disbelieve Jesus.

 

[Triumph1300]

All right..... You would say that if I would have died in a car accident between it, I would not be saved? And a member of Cornelius family who died between the two events would also be lost.

I would say my God is a just God.....

Waiting for an answer............

 

[BreadOfLife]

All right..... You would say that if I would have died in a car accident between it, I would not be saved? And a member of Cornelius family who died between the two events would also be lost.

I would say my God is a just God.....

Nope.
That's why I warned you to NEVER base your doctrines on the exception.

God knows the heart - and THAT'S why the Thief on the cross was an exception.
He was UNABLE to be Baptized because he was "busy" being executed.

The SAME goes for any member of Cornelius's family or YOU in a car accident.
This is what is known as the Baptism of Desire.