Does 1 Corinthians 11:7-9 disturb you?

[Truther]

Then don't you think your statement about the women that hate men is unfair? Hate, is a strong word to describe the women you now say you were referring to.
Many men don't get on with women, and vice versa of course. It doesn't mean one hates the other.

I was only speaking of the NOW bunch. They hate men....

National Organization for Women

 

[Truther]

I was only speaking of the NOW bunch. They hate men....

National Organization for Women

AKA...Feminazi's.

 

[WaterSong]

I was only speaking of the NOW bunch. They hate men....

National Organization for Women

Thank you for clarifying. You could have avoided my grumpy side if you'd have put that in your original post that I addressed. But hey, what fun would that have been? Not a fan of NOW. Never have been. They infantilize women and make them a victim. But they're rich! Figure that out. Pathetic.
There's a movie coming out about their founder Gloria Steinem.

 

[WaterSong]

AKA...Feminazi's.

A term as I remember coined by radio host and huge Trump supporter, Rush Limbaugh. God be with him as he battles stage 4 cancer.

 

[Truther]

Thank you for clarifying. You could have avoided my grumpy side if you'd have put that in your original post that I addressed. But hey, what fun would that have been? Not a fan of NOW. Never have been. They infantilize women and make them a victim. But they're rich! Figure that out. Pathetic.
There's a movie coming out about their founder Gloria Steinem.

Rush Limbaugh kept me informed over the years. They forget men got them here...LOL

 

[Truther]

A term as I remember coined by radio host and huge Trump supporter, Rush Limbaugh. God be with him as he battles stage 4 cancer.

Amen. He awakened my Americanism in the 90's. I hope he recovers too.

 

[WaterSong]

Rush Limbaugh kept me informed over the years. They forget men got them here...LOL

I would say it was a mutual journey wherein both women and men shared in the trials and travails and overcame together.

 

[Waiting on him]

Oh, my word. A man that hates women. And just before Christmas at that.

My mother is a woman.

 

[WaterSong]

My mother is a woman.

My mom was a Cactus. Over the years she made some very good points about great parenting.
Boy was she tanned.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Wow, that's a very odd indictment to apply for those of us Christians who are married.
"I do....because I can't control myself enough to stay single."
Gotta tell hubby we've lived a lie all these years.

Read 1 Corinthians 7. It's okay to get married just because you want to.

Do not look for a wife. 28But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned.

 

[farouk]

No because I'm a joint heir with Jesus.

@Pearl There is so much precious truth and doctrine in the New Testament for the believer to enjoy...

 

[Michiah-Imla]

No. Paul was entitled to his personal opinion.

The things that Paul wrote are the commandments of the Lord:

"If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord." (1 Corinthians 14:37)

If his letters are riddled with his own personal opinions, I’ll never read them again.

But thank the Lord that God’s words were in his mouth like David:

"The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue." (2 Samuel 23:2)

@Ferris Bueller many today seem oblivious to that scripture. I have heard many say that man and woman were created in the image of God.

 

[WaterSong]

The things that Paul wrote are the commandments of the Lord:

"If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord." (1 Corinthians 14:37)

If his letters are riddled with his own personal opinions, I’ll never read them again.

But thank the Lord that God’s words were in his mouth like David:

"The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue." (2 Samuel 23:2)

@Ferris Bueller many today seem oblivious to that scripture. I have heard many say that man and woman were created in the image of God.

I think if you research the epistles of Paul you'll see that he said, I not the Lord.... when sharing his personal opinion. That he did not do that in every epistle does not in my view detract from the fact that he did personally opine in his epistles and without that aforementioned disclaimer. Paul's epistles must comport with Jesus teachings. This is how we distinguish Paul's personal perspective from the teachings of Christ that preceded him.

 

[WaterSong]

Read 1 Corinthians 7. It's okay to get married just because you want to.

Do not look for a wife. 28But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned.

Oh, good.

 

[marksman]

(man) is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8For man did not come from woman, but woman from man. 9Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 1 Corinthians 11:7-9

Woman is the glory of man, because she comes from man.
Woman was created for man.

These are not very popular ideas these days. Do they bother you?

No, why should it? It is God's word and for me that is the last word.

 

[marksman]

I think if you research the epistles of Paul you'll see that he said, I not the Lord.... when sharing his personal opinion. That he did not do that in every epistle does not in my view detract from the fact that he did personally opine in his epistles and without that aforementioned disclaimer. Paul's epistles must comport with Jesus teachings. This is how we distinguish Paul's personal perspective from the teachings of Christ that preceded him.

Usually, when Paul makes a claim like this it is because he has been asked a question by someone in the NTC to clarify their thoughts on the matter.
and as the poster does not know or have not bothered to study the background to the NTC, they are oblivious to the fact that women had never had it so good as they did in the NTC.

Under Roman rule, women were chattle and subject to the wishes of the father or elder brother if the father had died. What they said went and often they married off their daughter/sister for some financial advantage so you could have a 20 year old daughter marrying a 50 year old husband because such a marriage was advantageous to the father.

In the NTC, this did not happen. The girl made her own choices with guidance from the church if they wanted it. So the instruction did not mean that the wife was getting a bossy husband who was going to have a reign of terror over her. In most cases in the church, the future husband always asked the girls father if he would allow him to marry his daughter and if that was NO, that was that.

In the NTC the father protected their daughters. They did not use them for their own financial gain.

 

[WaterSong]

Usually, when Paul makes a claim like this it is because he has been asked a question by someone in the NTC to clarify their thoughts on the matter.
and as the psoter does not know or have not bothered to study the background to the NTC, they are oblivious to the fact that women had never had it so good as they did in the NTC.

Under Roman rule, women were chattle and subject to the wishes of the father or elder brother if the father had died. What they said went and often they married off their daughter/sister for some financial advantage so you could have a 20 year old daughter marrying a 50 year old husband because such a marriage was advantageous to the father.

In the NTC, this did not happen. The girl made her own choices with guidance from the church if they wanted it. So the instruction did not mean that the wife was getting a bossy husband who was going to have a reign of terror over her. In most cases in the church, the future husband always asked the girls father if he would allow him to marry his daughter and if that was NO, that was that.

In the NTC the father protected their daughters. They did not use them for their own financial gain.

Women were also what today we'd call Christian pastors in the NT times. Paul gave accolades to those whom he knew and worked with as well.

The Role of Women in the Bible
[sic]"...
Women’s rights in New Testament times
The social condition of women in the first century had been radically altered from that of their ancient sisters. By the time of Jesus, the role of women had drastically changed for the worse. In theory, women were held in high regard by first-century Jewish society, but in practice, this was not always true. The concept of tzenuah, or the private role of the woman, was based on Psalm 45:13: “All glorious is the princess in her chamber.” While a man’s primary responsibility was seen as public, a woman’s life was confined almost entirely within the private family sphere.

Women were not allowed to testify in court. In effect, this categorized them with Gentiles, minors, deaf-mutes, and “undesirables” such as gamblers, the insane, usurers, and pigeon-racers, who were also denied that privilege. (On the other hand, a king could not bear witness in court, nor could the Messiah, which somewhat lessens the stigma of that restriction.)

Customarily, even a woman of stature could not engage in commerce and would rarely be seen outside her home. Only a woman in dire economic straits, who was forced to become the family breadwinner, could engage in her own small trade. If a woman was ever in the streets, she was to be heavily veiled and was prohibited from conversing with men. “It is the way of a woman to stay at home and it is the way of a man to go out into the marketplace” (Bereshit Rabbah 18:1; cf. Taanit 23b).

In Talmudic times, respectable women were expected to stay within the confines of the home. The terminology for a prostitute was “one who goes abroad.” The woman of the first century did not even do her own shopping, except possibly to go out, accompanied by a slave, to buy material which she would use to construct her own clothing at home!

The women recounted in the New Testament were very likely illiterate, since the rabbis did not consider it incumbent upon women to learn to read in order to study the Scriptures. Based on the passage in Deuteronomy 4:9 (King James Version), “teach them to thy sons,” the rabbis declared women to be exempt from the commandment to learn the Law of Moses. Indeed, the Talmud says, “It is foolishness to teach Torah to your daughter” (Sotah 20a).

Women were separated from men in private, public, and religious life.
Women were separated from men in private, public, and religious life. They could go to the Temple, but could not venture beyond the confines of the Women’s Court (there was no such court found in the original descriptions of Solomon’s Temple, so we know it was added later). Women were not allowed to participate in public prayer at the Temple, although they were encouraged to have private prayer lives at home.

The few rights of a woman included her right to go to the House of Study to hear a sermon or pray (Vayikra Rabbah, Sotah 22a). Also, it was her basic right to attend a wedding feast, a house of mourning, or visit her relatives (Mishnah Ketubot 7:5).

One Talmudic passage perhaps best sums up the situation of women in the first century: “(They are) swathed like a mourner (referring to the face and hair coverings) isolated from people and shut up in prison” (Eruvin 100b).

What brought about this drastic change from the esteem women had in the times of the Hebrew Scriptures to their near exclusion from society by the era of the New Testament? Very likely, this degraded view of a woman’s role was imported from Greek thought. The similarities between the Hellenistic and Talmudic views of women are remarkable. Through the influence of their heathen neighbors, the rabbis slowly relegated women to their first-century seclusion.

Jesus was a revolutionary in his regard for women
Jesus elicited surprising reactions from his contemporaries in all facets of life. He was not afraid to challenge the status quo and reexamine the traditional ways Scripture had been interpreted. But without a knowledge of the rabbinic attitudes that prevailed in Jesus’ day, the uniqueness of his behavior escapes us.

By publicly including women in his ministry, Jesus shattered the prejudicial customs of his day. Why was it unusual for Jesus to speak with women? Nothing in the Mosaic Law prevented men and women from conversing with one another! Yet the society of Jesus’ day, with custom dictated by rabbinic Judaism, differed strikingly from the Old Testament social order.

Jesus shattered this darkness by offering his teachings freely to anyone who would listen—whether they were women or men!
Jesus shattered this darkness by offering his teachings freely to anyone who would listen—whether they were women or men! We see him directly talking with women on numerous occasions. The woman at the well is perhaps the best known of these. We sense the astounded reactions of the disciples when their teacher was seen talking with a woman. “They marveled that he was talking with a woman, but no one said, ‘What do you seek?’ or, ‘Why are you talking with her?’” (John 4:27).

Another paradigm-breaking moment is found in the story of Jesus and his disciples at the home of the sisters Mary and Martha (Luke 10:38). Mary, mesmerized by Jesus’ teaching, is caught by her sister Martha sitting and listening to Jesus’ teaching with the male disciples. This could have been quite a social embarrassment to the family. The role of women was to serve the family and support the education of the men, and Martha becomes very angry at Rabbi Jesus for not enforcing the norms by telling Mary to go help. But Jesus passionately defends Mary’s choice to sit and listen. In doing so, he counter-culturally affirms women’s roles as fully fledged disciples and implicitly invites Martha to join her sister among the disciples.

In several other places in Luke’s gospel, we see Jesus publicly associating with women. Some were women of high standing in society, some were women of ill repute, and some even had been possessed by demons. One of these—Mary Magdalene, who in great thankfulness was with him until the moment he died—was the first person to whom he appeared after his resurrection.

In Matthew 15:22–28, Jesus spoke with a Canaanite woman. The disciples urged him to send her away for it was improper for a teacher to speak with a woman, and a foreign one at that! At first, Jesus did not answer her plea for help. But, as she prevailed upon him with her great need and even greater faith, he had mercy on her and granted her request.

The first proclaimer of Jesus as the Messiah of Israel was a woman.... It was women who were with him at his execution...and women who were the first to proclaim his resurrection.
Time after time in the eyewitness accounts of Jesus’ life, we see him offering his teachings, healing, and forgiveness to women as well as men. Often, it was the women who were the most appreciative of his work and teaching. Indeed, the first proclaimer of Jesus as the Messiah of Israel was a woman: Anna in the Temple (Luke 2:36–38). A woman washed Jesus’ feet (Luke 7:37–38) and anointed him for his burial (Mark 14:3). It was women who were with him at his execution until the end (Mark 15:47), and women who were the first to come to the tomb (John 20:1) and proclaim his resurrection (Matthew 28:8).

Jesus’ early followers continued to follow in his footsteps, including women in their gatherings (Acts 1:14) and counting them as fellow workers in the cause of sharing his message (Romans 16:3). It was only fitting that Jesus the Messiah, in his love, shattered the restricted status of women in the times in which he lived. Because of him, all individuals, Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female, can be one and enjoy unequaled freedom as children of God.



This article was adapted from an article by Zhava Glaser published in 1988.[end of excerpt]

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Women were also what today we'd call Christian pastors in the NT times. Paul gave accolades to those whom he knew and worked with as well.

The Role of Women in the Bible
[sic]"...
Women’s rights in New Testament times
The social condition of women in the first century had been radically altered from that of their ancient sisters. By the time of Jesus, the role of women had drastically changed for the worse. In theory, women were held in high regard by first-century Jewish society, but in practice, this was not always true. The concept of tzenuah, or the private role of the woman, was based on Psalm 45:13: “All glorious is the princess in her chamber.” While a man’s primary responsibility was seen as public, a woman’s life was confined almost entirely within the private family sphere.

Women were not allowed to testify in court. In effect, this categorized them with Gentiles, minors, deaf-mutes, and “undesirables” such as gamblers, the insane, usurers, and pigeon-racers, who were also denied that privilege. (On the other hand, a king could not bear witness in court, nor could the Messiah, which somewhat lessens the stigma of that restriction.)

Customarily, even a woman of stature could not engage in commerce and would rarely be seen outside her home. Only a woman in dire economic straits, who was forced to become the family breadwinner, could engage in her own small trade. If a woman was ever in the streets, she was to be heavily veiled and was prohibited from conversing with men. “It is the way of a woman to stay at home and it is the way of a man to go out into the marketplace” (Bereshit Rabbah 18:1; cf. Taanit 23b).

In Talmudic times, respectable women were expected to stay within the confines of the home. The terminology for a prostitute was “one who goes abroad.” The woman of the first century did not even do her own shopping, except possibly to go out, accompanied by a slave, to buy material which she would use to construct her own clothing at home!

The women recounted in the New Testament were very likely illiterate, since the rabbis did not consider it incumbent upon women to learn to read in order to study the Scriptures. Based on the passage in Deuteronomy 4:9 (King James Version), “teach them to thy sons,” the rabbis declared women to be exempt from the commandment to learn the Law of Moses. Indeed, the Talmud says, “It is foolishness to teach Torah to your daughter” (Sotah 20a).

Women were separated from men in private, public, and religious life.
Women were separated from men in private, public, and religious life. They could go to the Temple, but could not venture beyond the confines of the Women’s Court (there was no such court found in the original descriptions of Solomon’s Temple, so we know it was added later). Women were not allowed to participate in public prayer at the Temple, although they were encouraged to have private prayer lives at home.

The few rights of a woman included her right to go to the House of Study to hear a sermon or pray (Vayikra Rabbah, Sotah 22a). Also, it was her basic right to attend a wedding feast, a house of mourning, or visit her relatives (Mishnah Ketubot 7:5).

One Talmudic passage perhaps best sums up the situation of women in the first century: “(They are) swathed like a mourner (referring to the face and hair coverings) isolated from people and shut up in prison” (Eruvin 100b).

What brought about this drastic change from the esteem women had in the times of the Hebrew Scriptures to their near exclusion from society by the era of the New Testament? Very likely, this degraded view of a woman’s role was imported from Greek thought. The similarities between the Hellenistic and Talmudic views of women are remarkable. Through the influence of their heathen neighbors, the rabbis slowly relegated women to their first-century seclusion.

Jesus was a revolutionary in his regard for women
Jesus elicited surprising reactions from his contemporaries in all facets of life. He was not afraid to challenge the status quo and reexamine the traditional ways Scripture had been interpreted. But without a knowledge of the rabbinic attitudes that prevailed in Jesus’ day, the uniqueness of his behavior escapes us.

By publicly including women in his ministry, Jesus shattered the prejudicial customs of his day. Why was it unusual for Jesus to speak with women? Nothing in the Mosaic Law prevented men and women from conversing with one another! Yet the society of Jesus’ day, with custom dictated by rabbinic Judaism, differed strikingly from the Old Testament social order.

Jesus shattered this darkness by offering his teachings freely to anyone who would listen—whether they were women or men!
Jesus shattered this darkness by offering his teachings freely to anyone who would listen—whether they were women or men! We see him directly talking with women on numerous occasions. The woman at the well is perhaps the best known of these. We sense the astounded reactions of the disciples when their teacher was seen talking with a woman. “They marveled that he was talking with a woman, but no one said, ‘What do you seek?’ or, ‘Why are you talking with her?’” (John 4:27).

Another paradigm-breaking moment is found in the story of Jesus and his disciples at the home of the sisters Mary and Martha (Luke 10:38). Mary, mesmerized by Jesus’ teaching, is caught by her sister Martha sitting and listening to Jesus’ teaching with the male disciples. This could have been quite a social embarrassment to the family. The role of women was to serve the family and support the education of the men, and Martha becomes very angry at Rabbi Jesus for not enforcing the norms by telling Mary to go help. But Jesus passionately defends Mary’s choice to sit and listen. In doing so, he counter-culturally affirms women’s roles as fully fledged disciples and implicitly invites Martha to join her sister among the disciples.

In several other places in Luke’s gospel, we see Jesus publicly associating with women. Some were women of high standing in society, some were women of ill repute, and some even had been possessed by demons. One of these—Mary Magdalene, who in great thankfulness was with him until the moment he died—was the first person to whom he appeared after his resurrection.

In Matthew 15:22–28, Jesus spoke with a Canaanite woman. The disciples urged him to send her away for it was improper for a teacher to speak with a woman, and a foreign one at that! At first, Jesus did not answer her plea for help. But, as she prevailed upon him with her great need and even greater faith, he had mercy on her and granted her request.

The first proclaimer of Jesus as the Messiah of Israel was a woman.... It was women who were with him at his execution...and women who were the first to proclaim his resurrection.
Time after time in the eyewitness accounts of Jesus’ life, we see him offering his teachings, healing, and forgiveness to women as well as men. Often, it was the women who were the most appreciative of his work and teaching. Indeed, the first proclaimer of Jesus as the Messiah of Israel was a woman: Anna in the Temple (Luke 2:36–38). A woman washed Jesus’ feet (Luke 7:37–38) and anointed him for his burial (Mark 14:3). It was women who were with him at his execution until the end (Mark 15:47), and women who were the first to come to the tomb (John 20:1) and proclaim his resurrection (Matthew 28:8).

Jesus’ early followers continued to follow in his footsteps, including women in their gatherings (Acts 1:14) and counting them as fellow workers in the cause of sharing his message (Romans 16:3). It was only fitting that Jesus the Messiah, in his love, shattered the restricted status of women in the times in which he lived. Because of him, all individuals, Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female, can be one and enjoy unequaled freedom as children of God.



This article was adapted from an article by Zhava Glaser published in 1988.[end of excerpt]

thank you for sharing. Sending to both of our daughters. Hopefully they will read it. what really stood out for me was: (On the other hand, a king could not bear witness in court, nor could the Messiah, which somewhat lessens the stigma of that restriction.)

 

[WaterSong]

thank you for sharing. Sending to both of our daughters. Hopefully they will read it. what really stood out for me was: (On the other hand, a king could not bear witness in court, nor could the Messiah, which somewhat lessens the stigma of that restriction.)

I'm so glad you found the information in that link helpful. Please let us know what your daughters think after reading it if you would.

What court was Messiah refused audience? I thought he was allowed to speak in the temple and to Pilate.

 

[quietthinker]

(man) is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8For man did not come from woman, but woman from man. 9Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 1 Corinthians 11:7-9

Woman is the glory of man, because she comes from man.
Woman was created for man.

These are not very popular ideas these days. Do they bother you?

I find no issue with these texts but I can imagine that if either gender wants to dominate they would have an issue.