Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
I would argue that if we follow the words of the text, we have a very credible timeline, supported entirely from the plain wording of the text.
Parathetical portions are clearly delineated. Prophetic narrative is distinct from symbols, and symbols are defined by the Bible.
John indicates, from vision to vision, that 1st one thing is seen, and then another thing is seen. This does not indicate that the things he sees are taking place one after another! He is just seeing visions one after another! For all we know he has seen two visions, one after another, that describe the same event in two different ways! There is no chronology involved at all! The character of these series of visions is to avoid a set chronology or sequence. We know there is a definite 3.5 year period in which the Beast reigns. But overall, we don't have much of a time frame or sequence other than the knowledge that the Beast reigns first, and then the wrath of God falls on him at the end.
The whole vision is full of symbolism, but it doesn't matter because you're claiming each symbolic vision takes place in chronological sequence, right? You already admit that there are prolepses and flashbacks. That clearly indicates that at least those visions are out of chronological sequence in the book. But I would go farther and say that many of the visions have a non-chronological character. For example, the 6th seal is opened as an indication the Day of Christ is coming. It is a prolepsis. And yet it is given as part of a narrative leading up to further details of the same event. The fact he gets more visions after the 6th seal does not mean there are more than one day of Christ's wrath. Rather, it just means more visions come to add more detail.
You say, we clearly don't have that, we obviously don't have that, these cannot take place in a chronlogical timeline.
But as I read it, of course they take place in the sequence we are told.
The seals are opened, then the trumpets are sounded, then the bowls are emptied.
The visions are recounted in chronological sequence because John begins with the 1st vision and treats each vision in sequence. But this does not mean the events they point to take place in chronological sequence. You are mistaking, I think, the words that regard the passing of the vision, from sequence to sequence, with a chronological sequence assumed to be taking place between the events they point to.
Wording relates to the actions themselves within the prophetic narrative.
Revelation 8
1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
After the 7th seal is opened, 7 angels are given 7 trumpets. The first sounds, and something happens. The second sounds, and something happens. In that sequence, otherwise, how would we know it's NOT that sequence? If that is what is presented?
This is merely an account of a vision--not the events they point to! Opening the 7th seal is symbolic of a vision about to be unveiled. The seal being opened does not represent an event itself. The events are represented by the trumpets. Again, the fact there are 7 that are treated consecutively does not indicate the events they describe take place consecutively. The fact there are 7 in number only indicates they are a set, and they in forming a unit likely take place all about the same time.
It was different with the 10 plagues of Egypt, which took place one after another in sequence. But that was actual history. These visions of John were not visions indicating a timeline of history. Rather, they were symbolic visions showing John, one after another, what the Church should know when coming up against opposition and persecution. There is no thought to lining them up in chronological sequence.