Colossians 2:14-16 - The Law That Was Against Us
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The law is a hierarchy. The two great laws are at the top. Below them are the ten commandments. And the rest of the entire Bible is below them all. But they are all profitable and inspired. And man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. Not just the ones by Paul that can be made to look like they excuse disobedience.
You really dont get it, if you are in Christ than you are no longer a sinner, secondly the law was never given to christians, thirdly the law was the husband to the Jews but they where divorced for the law so Christ could be there husband, but you have left Christ to be joined to the law, you cannot have 2 husbands you must choose which will it be Christ or the law or will you remain in your sin by disobedience.
Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
You have chosen the law to reign over you and not Christ, as I said all you have found is the SDA christ not the real Christ.
I decided to take only some of the texts. For brevity, as I think they are enough. I think those I took shows more vividly the point of my argument against having two laws and two authors.
14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also rest of the Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;
I read nothing in v.14 and 17 that makes v.16 apply as to what Paul refers to “law” in his writings.
In v16 Peter told his readers that what he was writing to them about at this part of his epistle, Paul also had written about in his epistles (Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things,). Now, Paul had written much. So, to know what are "these things", that Peter was saying Paul also wrote about, the reader only have to go back to what Peter had written prior to v.16. And one will not find anything that refers to “law”. I will not get into that here.
Surprisingly you make that argument. For that same argument stand to prove that the ten commandments are not separate laws from those you say are Ceremonial laws. For as I have just pointed out, and which you did not seem to deny, that the 2 great commandments are found in them which you call Ceremonial Laws.
This then also, since in your view, only the Ceremonial laws were done away with, that goes as well for those 2 great commandments , right? What can you say about that?
Sorry, but I find nothing in what you said there that refutes what I said concerning John 1:17. So, let me repeat my point there. John clearly said “For the law was given through Moses....”. The “law” clearly referred to here is that which God gave through Moses. Try asking yourself, what law was given through Moses? I am pretty confident that you’ll find out that that is no less the covenant laws consisting of the ten commandments (found in Exodus 20) and the judgments, and other precepts involving ceremonial and civil matters (read mainly in Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy).
John said the “law” was given through Moses, and said in contrast, “grace and truth” came through Jesus Christ. He also gave a clear distinction what was given through Moses and what was through Christ. Clear as it is, will the Christian fail to see that? I believe that you see and know the distinction.
Sorry, but I don’t see how what you say there counter argues what I said against the “law” in v.14,15 as could not be referring to the ten commandments, at least exclusively. Let me point that out again here.
Romans 4:14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect,15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
If the “law” in that passage refers exclusively to the ten commandments, then who are those said to be of the law? Considering your contention regarding the ten commandments as applies from the beginning of human history, the answer to that would be all mankind. But then, in my reading, Paul was referring to the people under the old covenant made by God mediated by Moses.
Another is that, if the “law” there refers exclusively to the ten commandments, then Paul would be effectively saying that the ten commandments exclusively brings about wrath, which is obviously contrary to the people. This, as I have pointed out to you, refutes your statement “... there was nothing in the Ten-Commandment law that could be defined as “contrary” to Paul and the church to whom he was writing.”
I told you that my take on that is that the “law” there refers not only to the ten commandments but all the old covenant commandments, the law of Moses. That is what Paul says brings about wrath, with all the dos and don’ts, and of curses and judgments.
Tong
R1399
I think it is significantly relevant to the subject.
Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Paul was taking reference to a time between Adam and the time the "law" was given to Moses. Considering John 1:17, it is worthy to note there that "law" is spoken of as something "given". I have no reason to not believe that there was a time that the "law" spoken of here given through Moses, was not yet given. And that time is what seems to be what Paul takes reference to in Rom.5:13. The "law" here could not be anything else but the law given through Moses referred to by John in John 1:17. It is what scriptures call the Law of Moses, the written code given to the children of Israel in covenant through Moses, consisting of the ten commandments (found in Exodus 20) and the judgments, and other precepts involving ceremonial and civil matters (read mainly in Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy), that imputes sin on him who does not keep any one of the commandments, if ans when found guilty.
In the first part of the verse, Paul is saying that sin was in the world even before the law was given through Moses. It means that, it is not that because there was not a written code such as the law given through Moses, that men in those times were not guilty of sin. Paul was in effect saying that men, in fact all men during that time, sinned. Only that, because there was no law (such as that written code) yet, that sin is not imputed as it is when the law was given. Paul said this in support and explanation to what he said in verse 12, that all have sinned.
Romans 7:6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
It is indeed difficult with your take on what the 'law", not that this is a case spoken of by Peter in 2 Peter 3:16 concerning Paul. It is not. See my discussion on that in the other segment above. It is not every passage difficult for a Christian to understand in the writing of Paul is a case of 2 Pet.3:16.
You take the "law" there as being exclusively the ten commandments. So, it says in effect that the Christian had been delivered from the ten commandments. You explain that to mean condemnation under the moral law, which you say are the ten commandments, but at the same time you say that there is nothing in them that is contrary to Paul and to the church he is writing to. That sure is self contradictory.
<<<what other law could the new covenant Christian need to be delivered from?>>>
The law of Moses, the entire covenant law, the ten commandments with all the other dos and don'ts, curses and judgments, even death. But I have to clarify, that is not another law, but the law spoken of by John in John 1:17.
And while I am on it, to comment further on the text.....
Observe that Paul said "having died to what we were held by". And that in direct reference and relation to what he said prior, saying "we have been delivered from the law", one can see a sense of the believer's former standing under the law. That they were formerly some kind of prisoners or held in bondage by the "law" that he was referring to there, like servants, serving in the oldness of the letter. What letter? I could think of no other but the Law of Moses, the written code, whereby they should live by and should perfectly keep, not failing in any one commandment.
Tong
R1400
Good thread and study.
Colossians 2 - Parts 1-4 Powerpoint
https://archive.org/download/colossians-2vs-16/Colossians 2vs16.pptx
Do you stone the Sabbath-Breaker? Powerpoint
https://archive.org/download/sticks...tones - Do You Stone The Sabbath Breaker.pptx
Hebrews 3-4 complete here:
Hebrews 3-4 [KJB], the 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD JEHOVAH - "my rest" "remaineth" to My people.
Their 'T(less)-shirt' or 'bumpkin sticker' slogan would go something like this:
"Everybody should love & obey God, just don't tell me exactly how to do that!"
Thus the words "love" and "obey" become devoid of substance, or meaning. They are then simply placeholders of empty space. When in reality what they really mean is, ""Love & obey" means I do what I want (self-righteousness)."
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
ah yes...Frank Sinatra's, I'll do it my way!
Definitely no!
The old covenants was replaced by a new covenant. I hope you know what that means.
We are in the new covenant times. The old is no more.
In the old, God gave the law through Moses, the ten commandments, judgements, ceremonial laws, civil laws, food laws, etc., which were written in letters engraved in stones.
In the new, God puts His laws in the minds and write them in the hearts.
I am sure you will agree that Christians are under the new covenant and not under the old. So, I asked, what had God put in your mind and have written in your heart? Only you would know and could answer that sir. And I would only know if you tell me.
Tong
R1401
No problem sir.
But just to let you know, I will be posting on your posts, as the Holy Spirit leads me, and when the Holy Spirit leads me. It’s okay whether you reply or not.
Tong
R1402
While it is true that the ten covenant commandments were written miraculously by God and the rest of the other covenant commandments, judgements and other precepts were written by Moses, it does not take away the truth that all of them came from God and that God is the author of all of them. It does not make the others as coming from Moses and authored by him. Nor that makes two separate covenant laws that God gave through Moses in covenant to the children of Israel.
While there is difference in the way they were written and of the place where they were kept in the ark of the covenant, it does not also make of them to being two separate covenant laws.
Speaking of the ark of covenant, it is worthy at this point to point out the truth concerning the ark, if not, even all that concerns the things of the covenant God made with the children of Israel in the day when He brought them out of Egypt. That they are a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For God said to Moses “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” (Heb.8:5). See also what Col. 2:16-17 says about this which touches the written code, the covenant law. And they are only copies and shadows, they are not by themselves the very reality and substance. Copies and shadows were so given in God’s time according to the purpose of His will, to be representative of the realities they represent, until the realities that they represent are come or had been manifested or revealed. It is easy to understand what becomes of the copy and shadows when that happens. The ark then, even the tabernacle and all that is in it, are no more.
Tong
R1411
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
What did the mercy seat represent?
What was the significance of placing the law under that mercy seat?
And if the mercy seat represented something tangible and physical in heaven, and the law was placed under the mercy seat on earth, what is under its counterpart in heaven?
I am afraid this might lead us far too away from the thread topic. But anyway, let me address this as a side.
With reference to Hebrews 8:5, the mercy seat represented a reality that is in heaven. What exactly that is, scriptures does not say. The writer in Hebrews, who gave light on this, that they are only shadows of realities, did not tell us what the mercy seat represents (Heb. 9:5).
Now what I can say is that, whatever it is that it represents in heaven, is in my thinking as not tangible nor something physical.
Regarding the written law that is under, if the copy or shadow is the written code or letter, the reality is the Spirit.
Tong
R1413
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
It is at the very of this discussion.
Absolutely true.
It's a seat.
Yes it does tell us. The mercy seat was where God raised... Where the shekinah glory dwelt.
KJV Exodus 25:17-22
17 And thou shalt make a mercy seat of pure gold: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof.
18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.
19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.
20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.
21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.
22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.
KJV Revelation 4:2-6
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
KJV Revelation 11:19
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
KJV Exodus 19:16
16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.
The only other seat in scripture whereupon the presence of God dwelt was the throne in heaven. That is the real mercy seat. The earthly sanctuary was a replica of the throne room in heaven. Real. Physical. John saw it. The original ark of the testimony.
And the testimony, the law, is still real, and forms the foundation of the throne... The foundation of God's government... The foundation of God's kingdom. The law without the mercy seat merely condemned. The law mixed with mercy is the gospel.
Then perhaps your thinking is the problem.
Now does anyone think that the law that forms the foundation of God's government in the universe... The law of love... Was removed from the throne in heaven in order to appease the weak sinful natures of man? Our do you think that man was born again, made new creatures, so that very same law could be engraved upon their minds and hearts?
Have you read Revelation, for Hebrews and Revelation tie together?
Rev_11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
The same words, of lighnings, voices, thunderings, earthquake and great hail is seen at Mt. Sinai in Exodus.
Rev 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
What happened in the OT, when the Ark of the Covenant (Testimony/Testament) was opened, and that which was therein was exposed/revealed? Plagues followed.
1Sa 6:19 And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter.
Exo_25:16 And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee.
Exo_25:21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.
Exo_40:3 And thou shalt put therein the ark of the testimony, and cover the ark with the vail.
Exo 40:20 And he took and put the testimony into the ark, and set the staves on the ark, and put the mercy seat above upon the ark:
An "Ark" is simply a container. Therefore, in Heaven, according to Hebrews and Revelation, and the OT, etc, what does the Bible say is in that Ark in Heaven, which is beneath the mercy seat of God?1Sa 6:19 And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter.
Exo_25:16 And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee.
Exo_25:21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.
Exo_40:3 And thou shalt put therein the ark of the testimony, and cover the ark with the vail.
Exo 40:20 And he took and put the testimony into the ark, and set the staves on the ark, and put the mercy seat above upon the ark:
Deu_10:1 At that time the LORD said unto me, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first, and come up unto me into the mount, and make thee an ark of wood.
Deu_10:2 And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark.
Deu_10:5 And I turned myself and came down from the mount, and put the tables in the ark which I had made; and there they be, as the LORD commanded me.
Deu_10:2 And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark.
Deu_10:5 And I turned myself and came down from the mount, and put the tables in the ark which I had made; and there they be, as the LORD commanded me.
Read Joshua 6, for the type of the 7 Trumpets, the 7th of which contains the 7 last plagues (destruction).
Heaven (3rd) is a real place, into which Jesus Christ ascended in a real tangible glorified body of flesh and bones. It is not aethereal, intangible, gaseous non-things of airy nothings. It is substance, material, real, tangible, solid as the rock.
As I said, as to what is the reality that the mercy seat represent, I could not be sure. The Exodus 25:22 have the mercy seat as to where God will meet with Moses, and will commune with him. Now, what it is in reality in heaven, of course is real, but I don't think and can't be sure it's physical sir. As far as my reading of scriptures, I have not come across one that speaks of physical (as opposite to spiritual) things in heaven.
Pardon me, but I can't seem to get your questions. Let ,me answer as I understand them.
<<<Now does anyone think that the law that forms the foundation of God's government in the universe... The law of love... Was removed from the throne in heaven in order to appease the weak sinful natures of man?>>>
I haven't said anything about that. Nothing was removed that which is in heaven sir.
<<<Our do you think that man was born again, made new creatures, so that very same law could be engraved upon their minds and hearts?>>>
I haven't said anything of that sort. What I can say regarding that is that, unlike in the old covenant where the law was given as a code of letters written in stone and in perhaps leathers or papyrus ( I could not be sure) to be taught to the children of Israel by the Levites, for their observance and keeping, that they may live by it, in the new covenant, God's law are put in the minds and written in the hearts of the people, and "None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
Tong
R1419
This is not part of the new covenant promise. It is a prophecy of the new heavens and earth.
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