Hebrews 10:26-31

[Ferris Bueller]

To the person who is in unbelief, yes it does not matter. In fact, no truth matters to him. But to the believer, truth does matter and always matter.

You're not getting it. We got a whole lot of people in a church that's taking comfort out of OSAS all the while ignoring the matter of whether or not they're really saved.

I haven’t encountered a poster here, so far, that use OSAS to justify sin and unbelief. If you have then I am with you against such teaching.

You're either not reading their posts or not paying attention.

So you think that those who hold to the doctrine of OSAS here are not into making their election sure?

There are people here who believe in OSAS who say you do not have to make your calling and election sure and even call doing that a works gospel.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Yes, he is a slave of God, just to give contrast to the unbeliever who is a slave of sin.

And there you have it. The difference in 'sinning' between 1 John 3:9 and 1 John 3:10.

 

[Tong2020]

And there you have it. The difference in 'sinning' between 1 John 3:9 and 1 John 3:10.

How’s that? If you would be kind enough to explain those passages.

Tong
R1482

 

[Ferris Bueller]

And there you have it. The difference in 'sinning' between 1 John 3:9 and 1 John 3:10.

How’s that? If you would be kind enough to explain those passages.

9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child

The believer does not remain in bondage to sin. The seed of God in them grows, and so he does not continue in sin but grows up into doing right, more and more, and into the image and stature of Christ.

Meanwhile, the unbeliever remains in bondage to his sin and no change occurs. He remains in the hate and defilement of the image of Adam. In fact, he grows in it more and more.

13 ...evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of... 2 Timothy 3:13-14

We have to ask ourselves, "which one do I identify with, growing up into righteousness, or growing from bad to worse?" That's how we know if we are ready to meet Christ when he returns. Instead, the church takes false comfort in a once saved always saved argument, as if knowing that and believing it is what makes them ready to meet Christ.

 

[Tong2020]

9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child

9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

What can you say about that?

Tong
R1483

 

[marks]

Seems to me that you are saying that after one had been converted, that somehow such ignorant, unintentional sins exist no longer and could not happen to a convert. I don’t think that is the case.

Basically I'm thinking that before rebirth, we are just waves blown by the sea, we are dead, living dead men's lives. We simply followed the lusts of our flesh and our minds, because we didn't have any other option.

We didn't have the awareness of what sin is that we do in Christ. We committed sin both with and without thought. God selected a certain nation, and gave a list of Laws and remedies which included a remedy for sins committed unintentionally.

Sin in transgression of the Law, and transgression of the Law can be deliberate or not. But I don't think that's the only definition of sin. We also know that which is not of faith is sin. So anything I'm doing outside of faith in God is therefore sin, even things that may seem good to everyone around me.

Like giving money to a poor man, can that be sin? I think it is if I knew that God wanted me to give it to my horrible sister in law or whatever, for instance.

We have our ideas for our lives, and God has His ideas for our lives. If I follow my ideas instead of His, then this is, to me, sin. A much more general approach.

Living in trust in Jesus means I expect His ways to be good, and effective, and all that, so I do those things. If I stop trusting, I stop doing what He leads me to do.

Galatians says that if we walk in the Spirit, we will not do the works of the flesh. So to me, the key here is to remain walking in the Spirit. When I see flesh-works in my life, this means I need to return to walking in the Spirit. It's not so much about, I have to stop yelling at my wife, though that is completely valid. But I don't stop yelling at her by becoming "more zealous" to make that happen, though that can appear to help. The true solution, in my thinking, is remember God's promises, and believe them.

I think the tendency in us is that we see what our flesh still does, we own these for ourselves as if we were still guilty before God - Oh the Scandal of Grace! - though we are not. But we see ourselves defined by what we see instead of what we believe, and that very act is to leave faith in favor of sight.

I can fight and struggle and overcome my propensity to yell at my wife, and I think that's how we often try to address sin.

But what I've come to learn is that the power of sin disappears when I am communing with God. And communing with God comes in realizing how fully reconciled to God that I am. That He no longer even holds me guilty for the sins I may be committing Right Now! With no impediment my spirit flies into His arms!

So there is no impatience, or lack of gentleness, or any such thing, only the peace and love and joy which come from God. And when my wife says that uninformed thing that may have set me off, I respond with what is in me - God's love.

Someone who is not settled in the permanence of their reconciliation to God, well, just to say, many I've known demonstrate the thinking that they have to become zealous for good works, and try to change their behavior to prove to God their fervor, or to buy God's love by being good, or some such. It becomes all about the sins.

But being settled on the matter of my salvation, that I've been redeemed because God did it, it was what He wanted, and now He has what He set out to have - me. Such as I am. But they say, there's no accounting for taste! But then, God already knows what He's forming me into, I only see what looks to me like wreckage.

But again, faith, not sight.

Anyway, these are some of my thoughts on the topic.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes, Paul was not born again yet then, but he is a believer in God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses. I know you know who he was and what he had done, at least according to what could be learned in scriptures about him. As he said, he was ignorant about who Jesus Christ was then, that he has done all those things. That implies that if he was not ignorant, he would have not done those things. When he was no longer ignorant of the truth, what he had done then becomes clear to him, that all were actually sinful, and that he sinned. He did not consider himself excused because of his ignorance, but acknowledged that he had sinned and is a sinner, even saying he is chief among all sinners.

The point is that, there are such sins that are not willful sins.

Seems to me that you are saying that after one had been converted, that somehow such ignorant, unintentional sins exist no longer and could not happen to a convert. I don’t think that is the case.

Tong
R1467

Yes, this is the part I want to be clearer about. Because I really do think that we have power over all sins, so it becomes a matter of choosing. But I agree with you that in our experience of life, that doesn't seem to be true. Example, we realize, that thing I did yesterday, Doh!

That's something else I think about, things that I didn't think were sins in the past - completely off my radar, really - I now realize are. And what am I doing now that I won't realize is sin until some years from now?

And then there is Paul, I don't even judge myself, not that makes me self-justified, just that he recognized his lack of qualification to judge himself. So where does that leave us?

So maybe that's where we identify those "sins of ignorance", in that we don't have a full knowledge of sins in our life, again going back to Paul's words, Jesus alone truly knows the motives and thoughts in our hearts. Not even we ourselves know ourselves as well as Jesus.

Your thoughts?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Newbies should check out “Andrew Farley”..... get off on the right foot !

Yes!

 

[marks]

So there are people here who do not agree with the truth that if one is in unbelief that they are under condemnation and do not have Christ to stand for them.

Straw Man. Pure and simple.

Who exactly things people are saved apart from faith??

Seriously! Who?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

What can you say about that?

Tong
R1483

The believer can not live unchanged in his old sinful life. The believer HAS to change, because God's seed is in him and is growing. That's how you know you are really saved.

If God's seed is not growing in you and you are continuing in your old life unchanged you have either never really believed and been born again, or, you have stopped believing (take your pick according to your particular theology, doesn't matter). The point is, whichever is true, you are in unbelief. You have not retained the seed of the gospel. Maybe you think you have but your unchanged life shows it does not remain in you. The church will tell you you're saved no matter what as long as you say you believed. The word of God says you are in unbelief and that the word of God does not abide in you.

24 ...see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—eternal life.
26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 1 John 2:24-26

 

[marks]

That's why I don't deliberately sin. I sin under duress.

Does this mean you only sin when forced to?

Much love!

 

[marks]

<<<Just understand, if you make a decision to walk away from faith in Christ and return to deliberately sinning you have entered into unbelief.>>>

Make a decision to walk away from faith in Christ? I’ve given my heart to Jesus because. He is everything to me. Losing Him is losing everything. I believe I won’t and I can’t walk away from Him. I see myself to be out of my mind, even to think of that for a second. So, such idea does not have a place in my heart and in my mind.

This idea that the born again will "walk away" from the God shows what is in my mind a very low view of rebirth.

God set His seal of ownership on us. Does anyone really think that any of us can take away from God what He has declared His property?

Much love!

 

[marks]

The believer can not live unchanged in his old sinful life. The believer HAS to change, because God's seed is in him and is growing. That's how you know you are really saved.

If God's seed is not growing in you and you are continuing in your old life unchanged you have either never really believed and been born again, or, you have stopped believing (take your pick according to your particular theology, doesn't matter). The point is, whichever is true, you are in unbelief. You have not retained the seed of the gospel. Maybe you think you have but your unchanged life shows it does not remain in you. The church will tell you you're saved no matter what as long as you say you believed. The word of God says you are in unbelief and the word of God does not abide in you.

24 ...see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—eternal life.
26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 1 John 2:24-26

Of course what it says is . . .

The one born of God does not sin. Not any sins, willful, "duress", ignorant, none. How is this true? And it IS true!

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Straw Man. Pure and simple.

Who exactly things people are saved apart from faith??

Seriously! Who?

Read people's posts carefully. If you do you'll see who's saying the believer can fall away into unbelief and be saved when Jesus comes back.

 

[marks]

The relationship with sin you identify with indicates which person you are, born again or not born again.

Are you saying here that your own opinions of how you perceive sin in your life are more important than your faith in Christ, and trusting in His promises? That seems like a good recipe for confusion to me.

Much love!

 

[Behold]

I

1. The "willful sin" is not sins of the flesh, which are covered by grace through faith. And yes, I do believe Christ's sacrifice covers past, present and future sins whether they were willful, forced or you just dreamed them.
2. The "willful sin" is not holding fast to faith. In other words, losing faith and not believing Christ's sacrifice is sufficient, or perhaps, not believing in it at all. Hebrew 6:4-6, 10:22 and 10:38-39 in this book alone support that.
In any sense, I agree with your overall points. I am just wondering if you were in objection to something I said or were merely expounding and supporting what I said.
Either way, I appreciate your post.

The reason i teach that those Christ rejecting Hebrews are "hateful" is because Paul accuses them of "trodding under food the blood of Christ", and "crucifying Jesus AFRESH">.

This means that their rejection of Christ, is to re-crucify Him, exactly the same as the Hebrews who were begging Pilate to "crucify Him".

So, Paul is judging them, based on their resisting with hatred, their Messiah.
Then, he warns them... "there remains no more sacrifice for you".......as how can there be if you reject the sacrifice.
See, this is the unpardonable sin.....They are committing THAT sin....as to reject Christ,.....Christ rejection, is the ONLY SIN that can't be forgiven or pardoned.....as it REJECT THE SACRIFICE.
In other words.....God can't apply the blood atonement to, if you reject Christ. = The unpardonable sin.
That is what those Hebrews did, in those verses, and in Acts 28.

And how do you know its Paul that is the Apostle?
Because when you read the Acts of the Apostles......(Acts), then you find Paul dealing with another set of these hateful Messiah rejecting Hebrews.
Look at Acts 28..... Read the last 10 verses.
Its Hebrews 6 and 10 all over again......same Apostle.

 

[Behold]

Read people's posts carefully. If you do you'll see who's saying the believer can fall away into unbelief and be saved when Jesus comes back.

If you are born again, you are not able to stop being born again.
Being born again, is to be Saved.
Being born again is the ONLY REASON you go to heaven.
No other reason.

Being born again can't be undone or lost, because Salvation is not of you.......So you can't undo what is not of you.
Salvation is God saving you, BY= giving you the new birth.
Being born again is proof it happened, and once you are born again, you are always born again.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

This idea that the born again will "walk away" from the God shows what is in my mind a very low view of rebirth.

Even if you don't think Romans 11:19-22 is about losing salvation itself, it's still a passage about walking away, or falling away from faith in God. The Corinthians and the Galatians both 'walked away' from the gospel they heard and believed on, and turned to another gospel. And this book of Hebrews we are discussing is an attempt by the author to keep these believers from walking away from God. So why do some people say believers can not walk away/fall away from God? In fact, the term 'fall away' comes right from the New Testament itself!

 

[Behold]

Even if you don't think Romans 11:19-22 is about losing salvation itself, it's still a passage about walking away, or falling away from faith in God.!

You have this idea that dead faith, or hating Jesus, or no longer wanting to be saved, is how you stop being born again.

C'mon.
Wake up.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Being born again is proof it happened, and once you are born again, you are always born again.

Even if you fall into unbelief and a rejection of Christ?