A Christian who deny Jesus is God in Flesh

[Truther]

JESUS....

and in the Hebrew, he's the aleph and the tav, and he's the ordinal First, and the Ordinal Last.

now watch this, Alpha, or ancient, as in ancient of days, and Omega, finisher, as in the finisher of our faith.... (smile), YIKES!

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

Don't forget he is the first to be born of all the living, the first to die and the first to resurrect, even before Lazarus did. This gives him preeminence.

 

[Truther]

God and Jesus are both Alpha and Omega - Beginning and End.

The way to describe it is that all of the Alpha and Omega fully indwells the man Christ Jesus, bodily.

This qualifies Jesus too.

 

[Pearl]

God said:
‘This is what the Lord says – Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6

Jesus said:
'I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.' Revelation 22:13

 

[jaybird]

God is a Spirit (John 4:24) who inhabits eternity (Isaiah 57:15).

How do you explain this apart from making a distinction between the Father and the Son?



Your entire post that this was located in was good; however this statement is in alignment with gnostic teaching. But, thumbs up on all the rest.



This would indicate that Jesus was begotten in the incarnation and not eternally begotten as through some kind of created eternal mirror.

Of course, He still exists throughout eternity because He rose to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10) to exist outside of time.



All I'm saying is that if someone has the wrong Jesus they are not saved (2 Corinthians 11:3-4).



Yes, that is what I am going to faithfully tell them according to the teaching of holy scripture (John 8:24).



If you call on the name of a Jesus who isn't God and able to save, you will not be saved.



Don't you mean, Whosoever will call upon the name of 1/3 of the Lord (YHWH) will be saved?

Or, Whosoever will call upon the name of a 2nd Lord, also called YHWH, will be saved?



The kjv is more accurate.

Here, I will bold the reality for you.

1Jo 4:2, Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3, And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.



Which verse?



You agree that Jesus is the Word.

How is it that you do not agree that Jesus is God, in light of the following?

Jhn 1:1, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Psa 90:2, Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.



He is knocking on the door of your heart, @mjrhealth; and He is saying, I am the God who created you: won't you accept me as I am?

Mar 4:36, And when they had sent away the multitude, they took him even as he was in the ship. And there were also with him other little ships.

Which verse does Jesus and the scribe agree? That would be the verse where Jesus and the scribe are talking. Starts at v 12.
We had this same discussion a few months back. You dodged like crazy on that one to. I never seen someone fight as hard as you to avoid a question

 

[Truther]

Yes and for some , they need to unlearn the false doctrine they were indoctrinated with concerning the person of Jesus! they will only do that through th eHoly Spirit illuminating their minds! I am convinced that one like a JW or Muslim can be saved, still have loads of false doctrine in their head, and then as they grow- they will unlearn the bad and learn the true. all of us entered salvation with false doctrine in our heads. We became new creatrures in Christ in that instant we placed out trust in HIm, but none of us became instant theologians in that same instant!

Yes, just obey Acts 2:38 and banish commentary and presupposition...then read the Bible as literal.

That's the ticket to eternal life.

 

[Truther]

God said:
‘This is what the Lord says – Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6

Jesus said:
'I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.' Revelation 22:13

Correct.

God speaks THROUGH(not AS) His human son, even today.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I guess the question one must ask is who is the Lord and what does it mean to confess that Christ is Lord ?

Joel 2:32
32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Will be delivered;
For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
There will be those who escape,
As the Lord has said,
Even among the survivors whom the Lord calls.

Here we see Paul quote this OT passage about YHWH and apply it to Jesus who is the one and only Lord according to the N.T.

Romans 10:9-13
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

So a person must confess Jesus is YHWH(Lord) to be saved. Confess means to agree with so the person confessing Jesus is Lord is in agreement that He is YHWH. Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord ( YHWH) will be saved.

So a person who denies Jesus is Lord(YHWH) by not confessing will not be saved regardless of what religious group they are affiliated with.

hope this helps !!!

And you are conflating the Hebrew YHWH that was replaced with Lord to the new Testament. The formula is to confess Jesus is Kurios not Deos.

Kurios or LOrd in the Greek and Roman culture was attributable to Cesar who was considered a son of the gods thus divine. Many believers were killed because the confessed Jesus as Kurios and not Cesar as Kurios.

Too many people are adding to much theology to the simply biblical formula of salvation. If I were to put on paper all the things that people declared necessary to believe in order to be saved, once someone confessed Jesus is Lord and believed He was risen from the dead, we would need to give them a multi page quiz sheet and I guess they would have to score at least a n80% or so before many would consider them saved.

If someone realizes Jesus is Lord (as best as they understand) and believe in their heart God raised Him from the dead, they shall be saved! Theology comes as they grow and unlearn the corrupted things in the first place. I give more credit to the Holy Spirit to work in peoples heart than many here appear to. they do not even have to acknowledge the Trinity at Salvation, or accept the existence of hell or the indwelling Spirit or eternal security. these are all things that if they did get saved, they will come to learn as God teaches them the new to jettison the old.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes, that is what I am going to faithfully tell them according to the teaching of holy scripture (John 8:24).

And you will be wrong! Salvation is not based on believing Jesus is God! but that He died and rose from the dead for sin. One must believe He is Messiah or Christos and Lord(divine) but you would withhold salvation from one who follows the biblical demand for salvation when God will not. when Jesus said in John 8 "If you do not believe I am He" YOu need to look at the context. It was not telling the Pharisees that He was almighty God in flesh but that He was Messiah! Belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus requires a belief He is Savior.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I think it can take a while for many new Christians to 'fully grasp' that Jesus is God.

It can. And if one is truly saved god is patient and merciful and will lead a new believer there! We do not need to be theologians to be saved, just trusting that Jesus died and rose for us! If that was for real- they will getg their onGods timetable, not ours! But they will get there and cause many haughty believers great shame

 

[Ronald Nolette]

He would have to take them as far as sanctifying them in their doctrine before they die; because if they die rejecting the Deity of Christ, it will be in their sins.

If they call on the name of the wrong Jesus it will not be valid.

So, if the Jesus that they called upon reveals himself to not be the God who created them, they are not saved.

Well you are implying they got all their i's dotted and t's crossed before they die and that is just not true. The penitent thief was saved and He knew nothing of Jesus other than He was a king! He knew nothing of HIs deity or 2nd person of th etriune God or barely anything- He was the lowest of the low caste!

He just asked to be remembered when Jesus entered His kingdom- and Jesus saved HIim. Anyone who adds to that the thief must have had some kind of instant primer fo theology thrust in His head is simply being silly!

I am saying it is not complex to get saved. God puts us into the Kingdom , then starts teaching us of the kingdom.

Some here would forbid someone who wishes to trust Jesus as Savior until they meet a theological test! They would say "Wait, wait, you cannot trust Jesus as Savior until you believe all this stuff you may or may not have ever heard of before." "But you said Jesus died for my sin and rose again and if I believe that I can be saved." "no, no you have to come to understand and believe in teh deity of jesus and his place in the Trinity etc.etc.etc."> This is so wrongheaded!

 

[Hidden In Him]

actually the route of truth is the best route. ignoring truth just leads to confusion.
there is nothing to be scared of, those Greeks were not devil worshipers. Jesus said seek the Father and you will be lead to the Father, are you gonna tell me that outside Judaism not one person has seeked the Father. thats pretty far fetched.

Well that's a disappointing response. I was hoping you might want to talk about the verse you brought up in its context. As you said, the route of truth is the best route. But it appears that you don't want to talk about scripture any more than Mr. Health does.

 

[jaybird]

Well that's a disappointing response. I was hoping you might want to talk about the verse you brought up in its context. As you said, the route of truth is the best route. But it appears that you don't want to talk about scripture any more than Mr. Health does.

i was trying to explain to you where that idea came from. Plato was 300 years before Paul.

 

[ChristisGod]

And you are conflating the Hebrew YHWH that was replaced with Lord to the new Testament. The formula is to confess Jesus is Kurios not Deos.

Kurios or LOrd in the Greek and Roman culture was attributable to Cesar who was considered a son of the gods thus divine. Many believers were killed because the confessed Jesus as Kurios and not Cesar as Kurios.

Too many people are adding to much theology to the simply biblical formula of salvation. If I were to put on paper all the things that people declared necessary to believe in order to be saved, once someone confessed Jesus is Lord and believed He was risen from the dead, we would need to give them a multi page quiz sheet and I guess they would have to score at least a n80% or so before many would consider them saved.

If someone realizes Jesus is Lord (as best as they understand) and believe in their heart God raised Him from the dead, they shall be saved! Theology comes as they grow and unlearn the corrupted things in the first place. I give more credit to the Holy Spirit to work in peoples heart than many here appear to. they do not even have to acknowledge the Trinity at Salvation, or accept the existence of hell or the indwelling Spirit or eternal security. these are all things that if they did get saved, they will come to learn as God teaches them the new to jettison the old.

No I'm not as Paul identifies Christ as the Lord(YHWH) of Joel 2:32.

next....................................

hope this helps !!!

 

[Hidden In Him]

i was trying to explain to you where that idea came from. Plato was 300 years before Paul.

Jaybird, such arguments become more plausible if you set aside actual scripture. It's the scriptures themselves which need to serve as the basis for what we accept to be true and not true. There were a number of things in pagan religion and philosophy that can be said to have pre-dated Judeo-Christian thought, but it is the scriptures and knowledge of God that will determine if that is actually true or not.

Anyway, not a bid deal, and I appreciate the exchanges anyway.

God bless,
- H

 

[mjrhealth]

"Man (is) appointed mortal sorrow; (but) the Blessed God shall come down teaching (that) His death shall bring (the) despairing rest." The Gospel in Genesis: A Hidden Message – Chuck Missler – Koinonia House
=
John 6:38
I came down from heaven.

Matthew 11:28
Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

You stll have not answered the question is He or is He not the father, a simple yes or no wil suffice.

 

[mjrhealth]

Hi-
God is Eternal All-Mighty Spirit, Creator and Maker of things For His pleasure.

Spirits have (living SOUL) Power (to think, see, speak, hear, smell, touch, feel emotions).
Spirits have the Power to influence.
Spirits have the Power to enter INTO men.
Spirits have the Power to APPEAR in FORMS;
as men, animals, or whatever they desire.

The Created Human man Can not SEE Spirits, as they ARE.
Spirits Taking upon themselves, (A FORM) IS How a Human man, is able to see a Spirit.

The Word of God, Anciently, came forth out from God, And Spoke directly to Gods CREATED man (Adam).

The Word of God, Historically, came forth out from God, And Spoke in Visions of specific men's minds.

The Word of God, in "particular last days", 2,000+ years Ago, came forth out from God, in A Flesh Body, of what? (An animal? Tree?),
No specifically "the God PREPARED LIKENESS AS A Human man"
Why?
To Teach mankind FACE to FACE, speaking Gods Truth.
Why?
-Because human men...Naturally FAIL to believe "without SEEING".
-Because only "particular men" having "visions", could NOT with great success, convince "other men", their visions were true.
-How DID God teach...to Believe "without" SEEING?
- Expressly- HEARING.
Hear what God Saying He "WILL DO"...
Hear from "other men"...
Read from "historical testimonies"...
*WATCH and SEE if it comes to pass.

•Humans HAVE the Power TO KILL FLESH.
•Gods Word coming forth out from Gods Mouth...Came Among Human men, in the very Likeness of "particular Human men"...
The Jewish Race. The last remaining Established "cohesive", (surely identifiable), Tribe OF Judah (of the original Tribes Established and Scattered).

• Gods Word, came to Earth in a FLESH BODY Likeness of men, Expressly to speak to men, face to face, teach, reveal secrets hidden from ancient OT men, and
•BE an Example for human men Could SEE, what would Become of A MAN...that Accepts, Chooses, Commits, The Lord God Almighty As "A man's God".

THAT Prepared BODY OF FLESH...that the Word of God Took upon himself...
IS what WAS Expressly Given TO BE KILLED....BY Human men.

Human men CAN ONLY...KILL FLESH BODIES.
Human men CAN NOT KILL:
Souls.
Human men (nor God Himself), CAN KILL Gods HOLY Created SPIRITS.

No... God did NOT Die.
The Flesh Body God prepared (in the Flesh and Likeness As A human man Died and Rose up In A Glorified Body)
The Visual, with Witnesses recorded Testimonies, "anyone" can choose to believe...or Not...
Expressly revealed what "any man" can Trust is Gods Will for men Commited To the Lord God Almighty...or Not.

God IS Spirit...
God cannot Die.
Men can not kill souls.
Gods Soul cannot Die.

Names, Titles, Descriptions of God, are at His choosing. (And the same applies to men)
Until the Day...
God shall reveal His New Name to All Converted Glorified men...as well as All New Names for such men, as chosen By God Himself.

Glory to God,
Taken

So from all that He is not the father because simply put only a man could have done what Jesus did , not God teh father

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Some claim that Jesus was “ A “ Son Of God....

Others say that Jesus was “ THE” Son Of God

You had better “BELIEVE” that Heaven and Hell are at stake in what you believe to be the Truth...

 

[Pearl]

 

[mjrhealth]

@Taken silly thing is if you read my posts, everything you said is everything I have said, it was Gods word that came from God, sent from God just as Jesus said and just as was prophesied.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

The only way one can understand the Trinity is to be one of its three Members...