Colossians 2:14-16 - The Law That Was Against Us

[Randy Kluth]

No one in the past or present EVER lived <by the righteousness of the Law> and therefore every saved shall <live by the righteousness of Christ>.

God certainly did not give the Law of Moses to Israel to not observe it! Nor did He give the Law for them to observe without Faith! What you're saying, and what I would agree with, is that God never meant NT Faith to be produced while still under the Law. NT Faith is defined as Faith in the finished work of Christ.

There is no such thing the one could be without the other, WHENEVER. Dispensationalism is the great curse and scourge of Christianity that lost its First Love, Jesus Christ God's Free Grace Given unconditionally ... or withheld or taken away irretrievably to the goodwill of the Almighty.

Paul said the one thing --found nowhere anywhere in Christianity anymore--, is the very few who not forever and anon are engaged in trivialities and nonsensical BRABBLE ABOUT THE LAW. Now I tell Christianity today, For whom the Law of God offends, the Saviour must be an offence and shame. Never before as for the PAST 100 YEARS has God's Law so offended at the most characteristic of Revealed and Written Command : OF GOD, the Fourth Commandment, at God's Command "concerning the day The Seventh Day", "Sabbath Day OF THE LORD GOD".

Dispensationalism is not the argument. Even Dispensationalists recognize the difference between Law and Grace. In advocating for the 4th Commandment you're advocating for one small element in the Law of Moses.

And that Law is kaput, gone. Sorry, you're barking up the wrong tree. We are not under the Law of Moses any longer. That is a dead covenant, and was only for the Jewish People. None of the Law exists any longer except as a testimony to NT truth.

NT truth contains the same general morality as that which existed under the Old Covenant. But the OT must be washed away and restarted in the NT. The morality of the Law must now be completely redone under terms of the NT.

You are purely holding up your own denomination under the duress of human pride. Put Christ above your denomination, your church, your family, and even yourself. Otherwise, Jesus said you're not worthy of the Kingdom of God. Only He is your King--not yourself, nor your interpretations--just His revelation to your heart.

 

[BarneyFife]

a) Chopping up Scripture into single verses to prove doctrine is a serious error. You may or may not know that verses were added to the Bible centuries later as a reference tool.

b) In context, here is the relevant section from Paul's letter to the Romans...

"Consequently, just as condemnation for all people came through one transgression, so too through the one righteous act came righteousness leading to life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of one man many will be constituted righteous. Now the law came in so that the transgression may increase, but where sin increased, grace multiplied all the more, so that just as sin reigned in death, so also grace will reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Further down in his letter he wrote, "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? That is as clear as it gets!!

This clearly disproves your statement that Christians are under the law. We are under grace, as the main subject of Paul's letter to the Romans and his other letters proves.

... Only if you believe that in the massively capacitous mind of Paul "under the law" could mean only one thing.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

The Law is good.
The Commandments are perfect.
But, they have no power = no ability to impart or impute or cause, RIGHTEOUSNESS.

They were not given to make you holy, they were given to show you what you are NOT.
Its the LAW that shows you your SIN.
So, that which shows you that you are unholy, has no power to make you holy, it only has power to expose you as you are, = SINNER.

So, God made a NEW COVENANT that replaced that one, by resolving it.

See, the Old Covenant shows you that you are unrighteous, and the NEW Covenant (New Testament) offers you the only way to become RIGHTEOUS.

Show .. SCRIPTURE, for saying: <<the Old Covenant shows you that you are unrighteous>>, It is B-hold saying. THERE IS NO SCRIPTURE FOR IT.

There has been but 1 'old covenant', and it DID NOT HOLD but flopped the first day it was sworn, "WE WILL forever bla bla bla" -- man's -- none of God's.

I don't know what it is but no one ever seems to be able to read the plainest English : the 'old covenant' always has been man's LIE of obedience; God does not MAKE false covenant which is exactly what <the old covenant> ever has been : PROUD LYING : PROUD LYING, 'the Old Covenant shows you that you are righteous!'.

The Ten Commandments is no covenant which man made with God; it is the Law God Commanded man to obey KNOWING he always has and always will and always MUST break and disobey and despise and hate it. That's why God gave man the Ten Commandments as a promise of SURE REWARD for trampling it underfoot. That exactly then WAS WHAT GOD USED HIS HOLY LAW FOR AND TO THIS VERY DAY USES AND UNTIL THE LAST DAY SHALL USE IT,

Try it out and see for yourself. No That is what you and I and everyone who ever lived has done with God's Holy Law all the time. The only difference is, some wise guys think they are exceptions. Few guys realise their lot, no exceptions -- but for the grace of God.

The Law because it is God's Law will bring you to realise your need for his mercy and forgiveness. In that sense God's Law is good and holy covenant of his grace : NEW every day of our lives. But again many self-proclaimed prophets and preachers and sheeple are proud to scorn the need of God's Law all our lives.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

You are purely holding up your own denomination under the duress of human pride. Put Christ above your denomination, your church, your family, and even yourself. Otherwise, Jesus said you're not worthy of the Kingdom of God. Only He is your King--not yourself, nor your interpretations--just His revelation to your heart.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

In advocating for the 4th Commandment you're advocating for one small element in the Law of Moses.

Boy, now you listen! "The Sabbath" of the Fourth Commandment GOD COMMANDED is no <<small element in the Law of Moses>>. It is "Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD" -- "your" God, cheeky, whether you love Him or his Sabbath or not!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Boy, now you listen! "The Sabbath" of the Fourth Commandment GOD COMMANDED is no <<small element in the Law of Moses>>. It is "Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD" -- "your" God, cheeky, whether you love Him or his Sabbath or not!

Out of 613 requirements, how many do you think have to do with the Sabbath?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Everything that you, JUDGE, have put in words here alleging <<the NT makes no provision for Sabbath>>, is not worth the cyberspace it squats in. Weightless, negative, belittling, unworthy, ILL MANNERED, SADLY SORRY <human pride>... <<His revelation to your heart>>?! Blasphemy!

Actually, teaching Sabbath observance is necessary for Christians in the NT is false teaching. From your heretical pov it would, I suppose, be blasphemous.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

And that Law is kaput, gone. Sorry, you're barking up the wrong tree. We are not under the Law of Moses any longer. That is a dead covenant, and was only for the Jewish People. None of the Law exists any longer except as a testimony to NT truth.

I am not the one barking up any tree, listen to yourself, it is you, my little puppy! In counterpoint barking, in falsetto howling, of no avail up to nothing up the tree. <<None of the Law exists any longer except as a testimony to NT truth>>. Well fantastic. That's what he's been saying.
Dogs more often than not are more bark than bite.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Out of 613 requirements, how many do you think have to do with the Sabbath?

Buggerall.

 

[Jim B]

Boy, now you listen! "The Sabbath" of the Fourth Commandment GOD COMMANDED is no <<small element in the Law of Moses>>. It is "Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD" -- "your" God, cheeky, whether you love Him or his Sabbath or not!

If you're under the Old Covenant, a.k.a., the Law, then go ahead and observe the Sabbath, along with all its requirements. If you're a Christian -- under the New Covenant -- then it's optional. Christians are under grace, not under law.

I suggest you do a study of Jesus "disobeying" the Sabbath and the Pharisees' reaction to his behavior.

Mark 3:1-6 (and other places), "Another time Jesus went into the synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Some of them were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal him on the Sabbath. Jesus said to the man with the shriveled hand, “Stand up in front of everyone.”

Then Jesus asked them, “Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they remained silent.

He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored. Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus."

 

[marks]

While it condemns them, it provided a way for them to be forgiven of their sins and be reconciled and be at peace with God.

I agree with what you write, one thing here though, my understanding is that by the Law sins were not removed, but were instead covered. Had Jesus not died a sinless death, they would not have been saved to eternal life.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yet is not the law a reflection of the character of God? Is that not the character we are called to? A character of righteousness? Or perhaps we are talking about different laws here.

Personally, I think the Law of Love AKA the Law of Liberty AKA the Law of Christ is much much more a reflection of God's character than the Mosaic covenant Law. Not that the Mosaic covenant is contrary to God of course.

Much love!

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Actually, teaching Sabbath observance is necessary for Christians in the NT is false teaching. From your heretical pov it would, I suppose, be blasphemous.

"IF JESUS GAVE THEM REST THERE THEREFORE FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD REMAINS OF GREAT BENEFIT THE SABBATH DAY-OF-REST .. FOR THUS CONCERNING THE SEVENTH DAY GOD IN THESE LAST DAYS SPAKE BY THE SON .. IN WHOM .. GOD ON THE SEVENTH DAY FOR REASON OF ALL, HIS, WORKS THROUGH THE SON, RESTED."
For your information, GOD RESTED IN CHRIST WHOM HE "RAISED ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES .. the third day He said He would rise, the day after the Preparation .. the Seventh Day Sabbath .. before the First Day of the week."

What Jesus as "GOD CONCERNING THE SABBATH SPAKE" HAD DONE, to <<your pov .. is not necessary for Christians in the NT>>. For you, what Jesus as "Lord of the Sabbath" had done --even had risen from the dead "ON THE SABBATH"--, is <<false teaching, heretical and blasphemous>>.
God be merciful, what is it with your Church?

 

[Brakelite]

Personally, I think the Law of Love AKA the Law of Liberty AKA the Law of Christ is much much more a reflection of God's character than the Mosaic covenant Law. Not that the Mosaic covenant is contrary to God of course.

Much love!

Jesus said they were the same.
Matthew 7:12 ¶ Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The law of liberty...
James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
who also said...
James 2:8 ¶ If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. ( James is not saying here that because we may offend in just one point, we should give up the whole lot, as many suggest. No, what James is saying is that if we for example, ignore the Sabbath, we are guilty of all.)
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

and thus directly identified what law of liberty he was talking about...the law of love...the law of liberty...the Ten Commandments...the law of God, are all one and the same thing, and apply to every Christian under the sun.

 

[Randy Kluth]

"IF JESUS GAVE THEM REST THERE THEREFORE FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD REMAINS OF GREAT BENEFIT THE SABBATH DAY-OF-REST .. FOR THUS CONCERNING THE SEVENTH DAY GOD IN THESE LAST DAYS SPAKE BY THE SON .. IN WHOM .. GOD ON THE SEVENTH DAY FOR REASON OF ALL, HIS, WORKS THROUGH THE SON, RESTED."
For your information, GOD RESTED IN CHRIST WHOM HE "RAISED ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES .. the third day He said He would rise, the day after the Preparation .. the Seventh Day Sabbath .. before the First Day of the week."

What Jesus as "GOD CONCERNING THE SABBATH SPAKE" HAD DONE, to <<your pov .. is not necessary for Christians in the NT>>. For you, what Jesus as "Lord of the Sabbath" had done --even had risen from the dead "ON THE SABBATH"--, is <<false teaching, heretical and blasphemous>>.
God be merciful, what is it with your Church?

It is not my church. It is about your heretical teaching. Teaching that we are under the Law of Moses, including just the Sabbath Law, is not NT teaching, but the very thing Paul spoke out against.

You may be a Christian, for sure. But the doctrine you teach of Sabbath observance is not NT teaching. It is *your own* teaching. It is your denomination's teaching. And the historic Church has not taught it except for independent groups that were considered heterodox.

The Sabbath is not being used in Hebrews 3-4 as a 7th day of the Week Sabbath rest, as in the Law of Moses. Rather, Psalm 95.11 is speaking of entering into God's rest following the battles to conquer the land of Canaan.

Neither is God's rest following Creation a 7th day of the Week rest as in under the Law of the Moses, which were not days of creation, but rather, every week of the year.

You are conflating Sabbath rest in Creation and Sabbath rest after working to possess the land with regular weekly Sabbath rests. Sabbath rest for God after Creation was not in the Law of Moses. Sabbath rest promised to Israel in the land of Canaan in the future is not part of the Law of Moses. It's no wonder you're not interpreting NT theology properly!

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
It makes no sense to me that law had faith or have no faith. The is not anything that could have faith or not have.

If what you say of the statement of Paul, that is, “the law is not of faith”, wherein you take as to have Paul mean by “of faith” as an abbreviation of “of faith in Jesus Christ”, it makes to point for Paul to cite Abraham’s faith in pointing out that justification is by faith.

It does in the way I explained it. Paul was saying Abraham's faith brought him justification. That is, it brought him temporary justification by his seeking God's forgiveness for his sins. This would ultimately lead to his accepting Christ's atonement for his sins so that he could be eternally justified.

Paul never said that Abraham had "eternal justification"--only that he was justified. That is, God found him righteous, just as God found righteous any man under the Law who obeyed God's requirements from the heart.

That's because justification is by faith, which is seeking God's forgiveness of sins, relying on God's way of living as opposed to a person living his own way, without consulting with God. Asking God for forgiveness is actually a recognition that life should be lived in concert with God. Repenting of sins is repenting of living out of partnership with God, because Man was created to live in fellowship with God.

You see, if we just quote Scriptures without understanding what Paul is saying by his words, and in the context in which he uses those words, we will just be reciting what we think are platitudes or dogmas. True understanding gives meaning to Paul's words as Paul meant to use them. Words are not always understood at face value. They require embracing the context for ourselves, so that we also understand from the same perspective.

Well, I have already explained my position regarding justification, that Abraham’s justification isn’t at all temporary. I don’t subscribe to the idea of temporary justification, temporary forgiveness, of Abraham, nor of temporary promise that He shall not impute sin to him.

Now while we agree of the truth of the work of Jesus Christ on the cross, and that it is within the realm of time, we can not take away or separate the truth of God, that He exist and lives in eternity, that there is no past nor future to Him.

<<<Paul never said that Abraham had "eternal justification"--only that he was justified.>>>

If I’ll take your line of reasoning there, Paul also never said that Abraham had “temporary justification”. Comparing that with other scriptures concerning Abraham’s justification, I came across Romans 4. And I have already explained to you in my other post why I take the justification of Abraham by God as not merely a momentary one or as you say is a temporary one. Such grace God had given Abraham. Such blessedness too is given to the Christians, through the same faith, faith in God who became flesh in the person of Jesus Christ.

<<<That is, God found him righteous, just as God found righteous any man under the Law who obeyed God's requirements from the heart.>>>

Abraham was not justified by God because he was righteous or was found righteous. But this is what scriptures says “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Was this blessedness only given to Abraham?

Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness

That refers and applies to any one, regardless if he is of the circumcision or not, Jew or Gentile.

<<<That's because justification is by faith, which is seeking God's forgiveness of sins,...>>>

Seeking God’s forgiveness of sins only comes to one who already had faith in God.

And don’t think that I just quote scriptures without understanding them in context. I don’t think that of you as well. We only understand differently, perhaps or so it seems.

Tong
R1758

 

[BloodBought 1953]

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There are several other of your points above I could take issue with, either in part or in whole, but I have no desire to bore everyone with interminable critical essays upon points of theology understood by children, and not used as defense mechanisms for disobeying and denying God's authority in giving the world His commandments.

“ MY” Points ? Lol...I didn’t make any points....I just provided a list of Bible Verses ....

If you choose to “ take issue” with anybody it will be “ GOD” that you are taking issue with.....Have at it!

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
What I read about Abraham is that God had chosen him and made a promise to him and his seed. Then after some time God had justified him because of his faith in Him. He was freely justified by God, and that is not because of anything that Abraham had done, nor because he was looking for mercy and forgiveness. It’s just that of faith in God. But even before that, even before Abraham obeyed God, when God send His word to Him (Gen.12:1-3), God had made him a promise that is basically conditioned on nothing. That by itself points to Abraham’s salvation by grace through faith.

Yes, faith is belief in God's word, and belief in things only God can do. But part of what only God can do is forgive us our sins. Therefore, faith is of course trusting in God's Grace to forgive us our sins. I don't know why you would neglect that part of faith?

As I said before, faith is embracing God's word to our heart. Part of that word shows us that we fall short and need His forgiveness, and then accepting that He offers His forgiveness, conditioned on our returning to Him as our source and way of life.

Let’s have the scriptures speak to us and tell us of this faith through which God saves by imputing righteousness to man, a righteousness apart from works, the righteousness of faith.

The first time that was mentioned in scriptures was that concerning Abraham. We read that in Genesis 15:6.

And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

That is the passage that Paul refers. Now, what can we observe in that passage? There is nothing that qualifies faith there, except that, the object of faith is God. The question now then is what does it mean to believe in God that God accounts for righteousness? Based on that passage, and the context and Abraham’s knowledge and experience of God, it is fully trusting with full confidence and complete surrender or will and life, without a shadow of any doubt, without questioning and hesitation, without necessity of credible proving, that God is the true God, and is alive, unconditionally calls and choose, blesses and gives grace according to His will, is true, is faithful to His word, is powerful to accomplish all that He said He will do no matter how it is impossible to the thinking of man, is good, is righteous, is just, and all that Abraham knew about God concerning His being and person. It’s all about God as we can see. It is significant at this point to note that up to the point that God justified Abraham (Gen.15:6), we can’t read anything about Abraham’s past, that he had prior faith before God appeared to Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Haran, and said to him, that which we can read in Gen.12:1-3. To the contrary, this is what we read in scriptures that Abraham belonged to a family who served false gods ~ they were idolaters. And so, as far as I am concerned then, I see no relation of such faith to sin or works, nor to one’s desires, intents, or whatever.

So that is what faith in God or the believing in God is for me, which God accounted for righteousness to Abraham. And so I take the same faith as that which shall be accounted for righteousness to any and all those who believe in God like so, regardless of sin, works, desires or intents.

Now, the next question with regards that passage in Gen. 15:6 is what is the righteousness that God accounted to Abraham and the blessedness that goes with it. No one probably knew until Paul had revealed it in Romans 4. I had already discussed that in my other response post. Paul said that such righteousness and blessedness also is given to those who are of faith, that faith that was with Abraham.

Tong
R1759

 

[Brakelite]

“ MY” Points ? Lol...I didn’t make any points....I just provided a list of Bible Verses ....

If you choose to “ take issue” with anybody it will be “ GOD” that you are taking issue with.....Have at it!

No. You did not just provide a list of Bible verses. The intent of your posting was to convince me, or anyone else that was reading, that first...

So, when you try to exist under the commandments, or the Law, you are existing outside of God's Grace.

WE are the children of the NEW TESTAMENT, the NEW COVENANT, not the Old.
See, God found FAULT with the Old and replaced it.

in other words, "existing" (whatever that means) under God's commandments is intimating that we shouldn't obey God's commandments, and that by doing so, we are living outside of grace. That my friend is nonsense. You are, without saying so, that anyone who seeks to obey God's commandments is doing so in order to be justified by their obedience, which is nothing more than a diversion...a straw-man...because you don't want to obey God's commandments for any reason. You also provided that list in order to prove

that Christians are not under the law!

which is true, and why are we no longer under the law? Because we have been granted, by grace, the righteousness of Christ. Such a precious gift however does not remove the law as the standard of that righteousness. As to your list to "prove" whatever point you were making, it was not just a list of scriptures. To each scripture quoted, you introduced each and every one with a commentary of your own...presumably to convince the reader, me, to look at said scripture through your eyes, and in tune with your understanding. Sorry, no. That I will not do. The following two examples are why...

The law brings wrath upon those who follow it. (Romans 4:15)

This is wrong in the sense that strictly speaking, the law only brings wrath upon them who transgress it. I would presume you are talking about the Ten Commandments, because I assume you are intelligent enough not to attempt to convince anyone that the law of Moses, that is the civil laws and services and sacrifices of the sanctuary are still the guide for anyone in this discussion. The law we are focusing on is the decalogue right? That same law Americans are so upset about being removed from the walls of the courthouses and lawns of the local councils? That same law so many Americans believe is defunct? That law right? So yes, it brings wrath upon those who transgress. But, and this is a big BUT, does it bring wrath upon those empowered by the Spirit of God to obey that law? This text here...that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit Romans 8:4.

The law is weak. (Romans 8:2-3)

Again, your commentary lacks context and is presented to convince of an untruth. The law isn't in and of itself weak. It is powerful...perfect...and accomplishes exactly that for which it is intended. What made the law weak in its effect was the flesh of man. Read those scriptures you quoted again, and include verse 4 as I quoted above to give the full context. It is NOT the law that is weak...it is you.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

and thus directly identified what law of liberty he was talking about...the law of love...the law of liberty...the Ten Commandments...the law of God, are all one and the same thing, and apply to every Christian under the sun.

AMEN.
But HOW?
"BY THE POWER OF HIS RESURRECTION"!
Before, as well as after Christ Incarnate, and by faith GIVEN, before as well as after Christ.

That is the crux of all issues with regard to the Sabbath among all Christians under the sun. That is the life-giving truth concerning the Sabbath every Christian under the sun seems in his own way to sneer at. That is why I have such a low view of my erstwhile church as of the greater Body of Christ's Own, while absolutely hating all Catholicism.