Tong2020 said:
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It is important for me to be clear and explicit, to not put the burden on the reading public, the need to study the context for them to understand our statements, as much as possible, especially statements that may lead them away from the truth.
<<<Yes, faith as an OT work did not achieve Salvation.>>>
Faith isn’t work, at least as how I understand what faith is.
Faith is an attitude which when focused on the word of God leads to deeds. James said Faith produces Deeds. I call them Works of Faith, not to be confused with Works of the Law or with Works apart from the word of Christ.
You told me that already. And it does not make faith to be work. Yes, faith produces deeds, but that does not make faith to be work.
Tong2020 said:
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<<<1st, you rightly state that God's word to Abraham and His word to Israel through the Law made them righteous.>>>
I did not state that and did not mean to say that in what I said in my post in the quote box.
You said:
"That there is a covenant between God and Israel means faith is a given. That God wanted for Israel to be righteous in all that they do, is also a given. Even before God gave law, He was in covenant with Abraham. And He too wanted for Abraham and his descendants to be righteous in all that they do."
If Abraham and Israel were righteous and under covenant with God, they were righteous by virtue of their response to God's word given to them through His covenants. For Abraham it was a covenant of promise, later requiring circumcision. For Israel it was the Law of Moses. Faith preceded their obedience to the requirements of these covenants, but their righteousness, being based on faith, continued to be demonstrated in their obedience under provisions of these covenants.
Check out those in bold font in the quote box, which says “to be righteous”. So you seem to be reading wrongly what I was saying. For what I said is not that God made them righteous, but that God wanted for them to be righteous.
<<<Faith preceded their obedience to the requirements of these covenants, but their righteousness, being based on faith>>>
Circumcision was a sign of the covenant between God and Abraham. A seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had. Clearly, it’s about the righteousness of faith, apart from works. We know Abraham. He was a man of faith. We know that his observing and keeping what God had commanded him to do, he did in faith. God gave him commandments, not to make him righteous, for he was already righteous in the sight of God, bit not on account of works, but of faith. Now, God’s commandments are righteous and good. So it goes without saying that the works Abraham did were righteous and good. So that, his works showed men that he was righteous. So that, when one does the works of the commandments of God, he is said and seen as righteous, which is a righteousness of works, different from the righteousness of faith. Remember, the commandments came after he was justified by God. So obviously, they have nothing at all to do with his justification, that was by faith, and that was apart from works. And obviously then, the commandments were not for that purpose, but for another.
In the case of Israel, the difference is that, they (collectively) had no faith as that of Abraham, which was demonstrated in Sinai, after God took them out of Egypt, for they had broken the covenant they had with God in only a matter of days. They were a stiff-necked people and were unlike Abraham. Of course, needless to say, they were not justified as was Abraham. Moses pleaded with the Lord not to destroy them and God heard the prayer of Moses and so renewed the covenant with them. This time, the Law was added as a written code because of transgressions, that they are to observe at all times and keep to the letter. God’s purpose being that the Law would keep them on guard until He sends the Messiah, and to bring them to Christ, that whosoever believes in Him, having faith like Abraham, will be justified. There is much really to say about this, but I think this would be enough for now.
Tong2020 said:
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They were righteous on account of faith. The works they do is not what makes them righteous. Perhaps in the eyes of man, the works they do is what makes them righteous, but that is not so with God.
Do you even hear yourself? I think you're just arguing what you think the Bible says. The Bible does say something similar to that, but you don't understand it. The Bible obviously is not saying that obeying God's word is not righteousness! Obeying circumcision or the requirements of the Law did indeed make Israel righteous. And it was only because faith preceded their obedience. Their works did in fact make them righteous. The "Works" Paul talks about in another place is defined as "works apart from faith."
<<<The Bible obviously is not saying that obeying God's word is not righteousness!>>>
And I am not at all saying that. What I am saying is to emphasize that righteousness is on account of faith. Yes there is another righteousness, that is the righteousness of works, apart from faith. But such is not that which pleases God.
Tong2020 said:
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Of course Paul was not saying that the Law could not be done in faith. Else, what then becomes of those who does things in faith? But Paul was saying in the positive that the law is of works in contrast to faith. He was not saying of the works of the law that they are works of faith either. Whether the law or the works of the law, are done in faith or not, does not make of the law to be of faith.
You are just arguing what you think the Bible is saying. On the one hand you say that the Law could be kept by faith, and on the other hand you say that the works of obedience to the Law did not make righteous. This is a complete contradiction. If faith makes righteous, then faith used to keep the Law made Israel righteous.
I respect your wish to "believe the Bible," but believing in its literal statements "on the face" is not the same thing as trusting in what it really "says." Unless you understand what Paul's use of these words mean "in context," you will not be doing anything other than proclaiming empty doctrines, concocted from what it "sounds" like Paul is saying.
I know--I've been battling this for years, particularly because so many teachers have gotten it wrong and therefore teach us wrong. We need to determine what Paul means "in context," and we won't be misled by what things "sound like."
<<<You are just arguing what you think the Bible is saying.>>>
I argue what I believe the Bible is saying and I think so do you.
<<<On the one hand you say that the Law could be kept by faith, and on the other hand you say that the works of obedience to the Law did not make righteous. This is a complete contradiction.>>>
Then you don’t understand what I am saying. Try to understand what I said “Whether the law or the works of the law, are done in faith or not, does not make of the law to be of faith.”
The rest of what you say there goes to both of us.
Tong
R1823