So what's so new about the new Covenant, and is it better, really?

[Ferris Bueller]

Of course. But willful ignorance isn't an excuse. The major component of that decision is to decide whose authority one is subjecting himself to. The word of God or the word of the church.

It's not for us to judge willful ignorance concerning the Sabbath. I believe every Sabbath keeper has his Biblical reasons that compels him to literally keep it. The Bible tells me to leave them alone and let them conduct themselves according to their conscience. I would be sinning if I didn't do that.

 

[mailmandan]

It's not for us to judge willful ignorance concerning the Sabbath. I believe every Sabbath keeper has his Biblical reasons that compels him to literally keep it. The Bible tells me to leave them alone and let them conduct themselves according to their conscience. I would be sinning if I didn't do that.

I know Jewish converts to Christianity who say they still practice keeping the sabbath day, but more as a memorial than being under the law. Of course they don’t follow all the rules and regulations that went along with keeping the sabbath day under the OT law (including the death penalty for those who broke the sabbath). I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is modern day Judaizers who teach that keeping the sabbath day for Christians is necessary for salvation.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Correct. That is the law that condemns. Who wants to follow that!

James we are doing right if we keep the law....

8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” a you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” b also said, “You shall not murder.” c If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom James 2:8-12​

The law is not a burden. The law gives freedom to the believer. The law only condemns the person who can't keep it because of unbelief.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

What I do have a problem with is modern day Judaizers who teach that keeping the sabbath day for Christians is necessary for salvation.

In my conversations with Hebraic Christians over the years I learned that they don't think Sabbath keeping is necessary for the purpose of earning salvation through works, but necessary as the expected obedience of people who say they have faith in God. Just as we say 'do not murder' is necessary for salvation because the person who murders does not have eternal life in them (1 John 3:15), so they say keeping the Sabbath is necessary for the same reason. I respect that. I don't agree with it, but I respect it. Paul tells me to.

 

[DNB]

I know you know of these scriptures. God told them about the Messiah. Let me cite some.

Deuteronomy 18:15 “The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear,

Acts 3:20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you.23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Isaiah 53. (Please refer to your bible to save space)

John 5:39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.

Here’s also some testimony relevant to this. Stephen said of Israel:

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, 53 who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.”

It is not that God did not send them word and knowledge about the Messiah, who He is and what He will do for them, to save them. But that they were a stiff-necked people and always resist the Holy Spirit, killing those to whom God send word about the Messiah. They would have known the truth about the Messiah and what He will do for them when He comes, if only they have not resisted the Holy Spirit. They would have been given understanding if only they had sought understanding and had faith in God and resisted not the Holy Spirit.

Tong
R1886

Thank you Tong, yes, before you replied, I had these verses in my mind as to what you were alluding to in your previous posts. I see where you are going with this, and you raise a very interesting soteriology. I still hold to my position that, fundamentally, one Covenant (of blood), not merely a Law, as you state, can not exist alongside another - the first had to be, first completed, and then abrogated.
If you don't mind, give me some time on this as I need to do a more comprehensive study and research on the matter....
Thank you, over all you brought up some very profound points!

 

[Cooper]

James we are doing right if we keep the law....

8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” a you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” b also said, “You shall not murder.” c If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom James 2:8-12​

The law is not a burden. The law gives freedom to the believer. The law only condemns the person who can't keep it because of unbelief.

This is the royal law or the kingly law or in verse 12 it is called the law of liberty, namely, THOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOUR AS YOURSELF. Read verse 8 again. It tells us what the royal law is. You even highlighted it.
.

 

[Cooper]

In my conversations with Hebraic Christians over the years I learned that they don't think Sabbath keeping is necessary for the purpose of earning salvation through works, but necessary as the expected obedience of people who say they have faith in God. Just as we say 'do not murder' is necessary for salvation because the person who murders does not have eternal life in them (1 John 3:15), so they say keeping the Sabbath is necessary for the same reason. I respect that. I don't agree with it, but I respect it. Paul tells me to.

Tell them they are in the Sabbath Day now and it is millions of years long the same as all the other six days of creation.
.

 

[Cooper]

James we are doing right if we keep the law....

8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” a you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” b also said, “You shall not murder.” c If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom James 2:8-12​

The law is not a burden. The law gives freedom to the believer. The law only condemns the person who can't keep it because of unbelief.

Jesus said paraphrasing, "my burden is light." It gives freedom. Not so with the Mitzvot Laws, that kill.
.

 

[Marymog]

Sorry, I don't believe in denominationalism.

I go to a Calvary Chapel; and in my church we believe that communion is symbolic.

And I don't think that we are missing out on everlasting life because of that.

For salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

I don't believe that the "Jesus cookie" will bring me salvation in the slightest.

And, I will say, that Jesus is the way to salvation; and that attending a church where they believe in trans-substantiation is not an essential to my salvation.

Believing in Him is enough.

Hi JBF,

There are many denominations, such as Calvary Chapel, that believe communion is symbolic. In the Bread of Life discourse he TOLD us we must eat his body and then at the Last Supper he showed us HOW to eat his body. Very simple instructions!! He told us what to do to have life in us and then he showed us how to do it!! What a great teacher!

Does your denomination teach that it would be cannibalism if communion is treated as His body?

Mary

PS....Do you belong to the denomination that Chuck Smith started? Or is it another Calvary Chapel you belong to?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

This is the royal law or the kingly law or in verse 12 it is called the law of liberty, namely, THOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOUR AS YOURSELF. Read verse 8 again. It tells us what the royal law is. You even highlighted it.
.

Notice in that passage (James 2:8-12) that the royal law does not replace the law from where it came from. It fulfills them. IOW, if your keeping of the law, 'love your neighbor as yourself' is not keeping the other laws, then you're not loving your neighbor as yourself. Paul says the same thing....

Romans 13:9
9The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” a and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
​

When you don't commit adultery, or don't murder, or don't steal that is when you are 'loving your neighbor as yourself'. The command 'love your neighbor as yourself' is not your release from keeping the other commandments of God. Keeping the other commandments is how you love your neighbor as yourself.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Jesus said paraphrasing, "my burden is light." It gives freedom. Not so with the Mitzvot Laws, that kill.
.

There are laws that do not have to be literally kept anymore. That's because what those laws sought to accomplish has already been fulfilled by Christ. There's no need to seek to accomplish something through observance of a law that has already been forever and perfectly accomplished through Christ's ministry and sacrifice.

The fulfilment that Christ was talking about in Matthew 5:17-18 is one of the two conditions that had to be satisfied before even a jot or tittle could disappear from the law. And we know that fulfillment has occurred allowing jots and tittles to disappear from the law because a lot more than a jot or tittle has disappeared from the law. Sacrifice of animals being the most obvious example of that. What's left is the law that gives liberty, summed up in the one command of the law, 'love your neighbor as yourself', the observance of which keeps all the other laws.

 

[Cooper]

There are laws that do not have to be literally kept anymore. That's because what those laws sought to accomplish has already been fulfilled by Christ. There's no need to seek to accomplish something through observance of a law that has already been forever and perfectly accomplished through Christ's ministry and sacrifice.

The fulfilment that Christ was talking about in Matthew 5:17-18 is one of the two conditions that had to be satisfied before even a jot or tittle could disappear from the law. And we know that fulfillment has occurred allowing jots and tittle to disappear from the law because a lot more than a dot or tittle has disappeared from the law. Sacrifice of animals being the most obvious example of that. What's left is the law that gives liberty, summed up in the one command of the law, 'love your neighbor as yourself', the observance of which keeps all the other laws.

Don't bother, I'm not getting into all that Old Testament stuff again. Jesus gave us 50 or more commands for us today, and I follow the Good Shepherd, my teacher, guide, helper, comforter, Saviour, healer, baptiser, coming King... Out with the old and in with the new under our Great High Priest. Praise God. It has been like that for over 2,000 years, and it is time people stopped looking back and instead look forward to when the Messiah comes AGAIN. (Hint, hint to all the unbelieving Jews.)
.

 

[Cooper]

Notice in that passage (James 2:8-12) that the royal law does not replace the law from where it came from. It fulfills them. IOW, if your keeping of the law, 'love your neighbor as yourself' is not keeping the other laws, then you're not loving your neighbor as yourself. Paul says the same thing....

Romans 13:9
9The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” a and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
​

When you don't commit adultery, or don't murder, or don't steal that is when you are 'loving your neighbor as yourself'. The command 'love your neighbor as yourself' is not your release from keeping the other commandments of God. Keeping the other commandments is how you love your neighbor as yourself.

I do not need sermons, thank you very much.
.

 

[Cooper]

Notice in that passage (James 2:8-12) that the royal law does not replace the law from where it came from. It fulfills them. IOW, if your keeping of the law, 'love your neighbor as yourself' is not keeping the other laws, then you're not loving your neighbor as yourself. Paul says the same thing....

Romans 13:9
9The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” a and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
​

When you do not commit adultery, or do not murder, or do not steal, that is simply command keeping. It is when you are 'loving your neighbor as yourself'. The command 'love your neighbour as yourself' is not your release from keeping the other commandments of God. Keeping the other commandments is how you love your neighbour as yourself.

When you do not steal, and do not murder, very negative, which the Old Testament is, that is not feeding and clothing your neighbour as Christ would have us do, and which is positive Christianity. By your works...etc.
.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Don't bother, I'm not getting into all that Old Testament stuff again.

Don't you realize 'love your neighbor as yourself' is 'Old Testament stuff', as you put it? Leviticus 19:18.

You don't have to keep the laws that Christ fulfilled. So if there's any 'Old Testament stuff' you don't have to get into it's those. But 'love your neighbor as yourself' and all the laws that are kept by doing that are exactly what we Christians are to be getting into.

Romans 3:31
31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Certainly not! Instead, we uphold the law.​

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I do not need sermons, thank you very much.
.

What you need is to be instructed and inspired by your brothers and sisters, just as I need to be. That's how we all learn. None of us figures this stuff out on our own.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

When you do not steal, and do not murder, very negative, which the Old Testament is, that is not feeding and clothing your neighbour as Christ would have us do, and which is positive Christianity. By your works...etc.
.

The "do not's" of the law are your works too. If you think that is very negative and 'Old Testament', consider that the "do not's" are taught in the New Testament too.

 

[Tong2020]

Exactly!

That the believer under the New Covenant is governed by the law is evident in such passages as:

Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 13:8-10; Romans 5:5.

The law gives the specifics of what it means to love God and neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40, Romans 13:8-10).

Other passages that carry relevance are James 1:22-25 and James 2:10-12.

Also, it should be clear that there is a righteousness apart from the law that is nevertheless attested to by the law and the prophets that it is righteousness indeed (Romans 3:21).

This is because faith apprehends the Holy Spirit (Galatians 3:14) and the Holy Spirit, as He lives His life in us and through us, lives out the righteousness of faith. The righteousness of faith has to do with walking not after the flesh but after the Spirit (by faith); and results in the righteousness of the law being fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4).

Because when we bear the fruit of the Spirit, there is no law that will condemn our behaviour; we will not violate any law if we are bearing the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23).

Therefore in bearing the fruit of the Spirit we become law-abiding citizens of the kingdom of heaven. But the venue by which we obtain this righteousness is not through attempting to obey a set of do's and don'ts; rather we obtain this righteousness when we walk and live by faith.

As I said The Christian is not under the law, that is, the codified body of laws, the law of Moses, so he can’t be said to violate it nor is governed by it.

You don’t seem to get that.

<<<That the believer under the New Covenant is governed by the law is evident in such passages as:>>>

Not the codified body of law, the law of Moses, but the law of Christ.

You cited 1 John 5:3 among others to support your position that the believer under the New Covenant is governed by the law.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

But take a look at what Peter said in Acts 15, of the law of Moses.

Acts 15:5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

Acts 15:10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

See? The law of Moses sure are burdensome but the commandments there in 1 John 5:3 are not.

Now, were the Gentile Christians commanded to keep the law? No.

AcTs 15: 24Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment—

Tong
R1891

 

[Ferris Bueller]

As I said The Christian is not under the law, that is, the codified body of laws, the law of Moses, so he can’t be said to violate it nor is governed by it.

You don’t seem to get that.

Maybe you're the one who doesn't get it.

James 2:8-9
8If you really fulfill the royal law stated in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”c you are doing well. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.​

The law about favoritism he is referring to is Leviticus 19:15. When you show favoritism you sin and are convicted by Leviticus 19:15 as a transgressor.

But don't misunderstand. I'm in no way saying we are 'under' the law of Moses. For all that means the believer is not 'under' the law, he upholds it.

 

[Philip James]

Hi JBF,

There are many denominations, such as Calvary Chapel, that believe communion is symbolic. In the Bread of Life discourse he TOLD us we must eat his body and then at the Last Supper he showed us HOW to eat his body. Very simple instructions!! He told us what to do to have life in us and then he showed us how to do it!! What a great teacher!

Hi Mary,

thought you might enjoy this if you haven't already seen it:

Peace be with you!