Why Do People Believe In This?

[Paul Christensen]

I happy to discuss any actual theological point, as I have several.

What’s your other book?

Is Mormonism Christian? by Gordon Holmes Fraser.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Is Mormonism Christian? by Gordon Holmes Fraser.

Well, that's going from 99 degrees of inaccurate to only 50 degrees of inaccurate.... so I suppose an upgrade?

Would you like to discuss any theological points or have questions, let me know. I'll address the question "Are Mormons Christian" in the next post.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

"Are Mormons Christian?"

This answer comes down to how the word "Christian" is being defined. I'll go over a few definitions and the resulting answers.

"Christian" = a person whom has faith in Christ. And that's it. Then yes, Mormons are Christian- Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. That's the definition I + other LDS Christians + many other Christians use: acknowledging and celebrating the foundational Christians relationships of Pentecostals, Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Orthodox, etc. We don't have to agree on all theology to celebrate another's love of Christ.

"Christian" = a person whom has faith in Christ + passes these certain theological tests that I have decided are important. Depends on the added theological test. Spoiler alert: LDS Christians aren't Protestant, so if that's required the "no" is the answer. LDS Christians also don't subscribe to the post-Biblical Creeds (most notably the Athanasian Creed), so if that's required the answer is again "no".

If you want to give me your specific definition you're using @Paul Christensen , I can go into that specifics.

 

[Paul Christensen]

"Are Mormons Christian?"

This answer comes down to how the word "Christian" is being defined. I'll go over a few definitions and the resulting answers.

"Christian" = a person whom has faith in Christ. And that's it. Then yes, Mormons are Christian- Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. That's the definition I + other LDS Christians + many other Christians use: acknowledging and celebrating the foundational Christians relationships of Pentecostals, Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Orthodox, etc. We don't have to agree on all theology to celebrate another's love of Christ.

"Christian" = a person whom has faith in Christ + passes these certain theological tests that I have decided are important. Depends on the added theological test. Spoiler alert: LDS Christians aren't Protestant, so if that's required the "no" is the answer. LDS Christians also don't subscribe to the post-Biblical Creeds (most notably the Athanasian Creed), so if that's required the answer is again "no".

If you want to give me your specific definition you're using @Paul Christensen , I can go into that specifics.

The question is: is it the same Christ as in the New Testament?
Explain the teaching that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers and that Jesus was chosen to bring the light of faith into the world, and Lucifer was rejected. As a result Lucifer rebelled against God and became the devil and his angels became demons. How does this Jesus compare with the Jesus of the New Testament, and the Biblical description of Lucifer who was an Archangel who wanted to be like God and rebelled and was cast out of heaven along with his angels?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

The question is: is it the same Christ as in the New Testament?

Ok, so that's a "accepting Christ + passing a certain theology test".

Explain the teaching that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers

There actually isn't any special relationship between Christ & Lucifer other than the one that applies to everyone: namely that the Father is their Father. He's Christ's Father, your Father, my Father, Elvis' Father, Lucifer's Father, the mail lady's Father, etc. This is not remotely a point of focus for LDS Christians, and the only people whomever bring it up are anti's.

That doesn't remotely mean that any one of those people are the same at all. In fact, you couldn't get two more extreme different people that Christ & Lucifer: Christ obviously choosing to follow the Father perfectly, and Lucifer choosing to lead a rebellion.

Jesus was chosen to bring the light of faith into the world, and Lucifer was rejected. As a result Lucifer rebelled against God and became the devil and his angels became demons. How does this Jesus compare with the Jesus of the New Testament, and the Biblical description of Lucifer who was an Archangel who wanted to be like God and rebelled and was cast out of heaven along with his angels?

Christ is God's one and only perfect Son. The only Son of God. He alone was chosen to be the Savior of the world before the world was made and before the Father even presented the idea. Christ of course, accepted the Father's will and plan.
Lucifer, on the other hand, rebelled and said (very abridged) "No no! Forget that- your plan sucks Father. I have a better idea: give me all your power & glory- I'll be the most high, and we'll do things my way!" He gathered a lot of people to his idea, leading that rebellion. And he & his followers were cast out of heaven.

 

[Paul Christensen]

"Are Mormons Christian?"

This answer comes down to how the word "Christian" is being defined. I'll go over a few definitions and the resulting answers.

"Christian" = a person whom has faith in Christ. And that's it. Then yes, Mormons are Christian- Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. That's the definition I + other LDS Christians + many other Christians use: acknowledging and celebrating the foundational Christians relationships of Pentecostals, Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Orthodox, etc. We don't have to agree on all theology to celebrate another's love of Christ.

"Christian" = a person whom has faith in Christ + passes these certain theological tests that I have decided are important. Depends on the added theological test. Spoiler alert: LDS Christians aren't Protestant, so if that's required the "no" is the answer. LDS Christians also don't subscribe to the post-Biblical Creeds (most notably the Athanasian Creed), so if that's required the answer is again "no".

If you want to give me your specific definition you're using @Paul Christensen , I can go into that specifics.

Also explain this teaching that comes from the Melchizedeck Priesthood manual for 1984 (pp 126-32):
"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority that he has received. We cannot get around him."

Brigham Young:
"...No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the Celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith.

From the day that the priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith as a passport to their entrance into the mansion above where God and Christ are - I with you and you with me.

I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys to rule in the spirit world and He rules there trimphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh."

Doesn't this parallel the RCC teaching that to be saved one must go through Mary the Queen of Heaven, who intercedes to Christ for the souls of sinners?

 

[Paul Christensen]

Ok, so that's a "accepting Christ + passing a certain theology test".

There actually isn't any special relationship between Christ & Lucifer other than the one that applies to everyone: namely that the Father is their Father. He's Christ's Father, your Father, my Father, Elvis' Father, Lucifer's Father, the mail lady's Father, etc.

That doesn't remotely mean that any one of those people are the same at all. In fact, you couldn't get two more extreme different people that Christ & Lucifer: Christ obviously choosing to follow the Father perfectly, and Lucifer choosing to lead a rebellion.

Christ is God's one and only perfect Son. The only Son of God. He alone was chosen to be the Savior of the world before the world was made and before the Father even presented the idea. Christ of course, accepted the Father's will and plan.
Lucifer, on the other hand, rebelled and said (very abridged) "No no! Forget that- your plan sucks Father. I have a better idea: give me all your power & glory- I'll be the most high, and we'll do things my way!" He gathered a lot of people to his idea, leading that rebellion. And he & his followers were cast out of heaven.

If you look carefully at the Bible references to Lucifer, you will find that what you have said is a fictional addition. There is no reference about Lucifer commenting on God's plan of salvation. In fact, Lucifer rebelled against God Himself and wanted to take over from God to rule Heaven himself. He tried to stage a coup in heaven and failed. That's why he was cast out. The notion that Lucifer had a better plan of salvation than God is mere fiction.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

If you look carefully at the Bible references to Lucifer, you will find that what you have said is a fictional addition. There is no reference about Lucifer commenting on God's plan of salvation. In fact, Lucifer rebelled against God Himself and wanted to take over from God to rule Heaven himself. He tried to stage a coup in heaven and failed. That's why he was cast out. The notion that Lucifer had a better plan of salvation than God is mere fiction.

The part I underlined I also stated.

As to the rest: You're imposing Sola Sciptura here. I don't remotely believe in Sola Scriptura, don't fund suhc an idea support in the Bible and actually passionately disagree with it. So an argument based in "well the Bible doesn't say that" doesn't hold much water.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Also explain this teaching that comes from the Melchizedeck Priesthood manual for 1984 (pp 126-32):
"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority that he has received. We cannot get around him."

Brigham Young:
"...No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the Celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith.

From the day that the priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith as a passport to their entrance into the mansion above where God and Christ are - I with you and you with me.

I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys to rule in the spirit world and He rules there trimphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh."

Doesn't this parallel the RCC teaching that to be saved one must go through Mary the Queen of Heaven, who intercedes to Christ for the souls of sinners?

"Anti-cultists" MAJORLY exaggerate the role either Joseph Smith or Brigham Young play in the LDS Christian faith. In reality, the role is much much smaller. I'm not a disciple of Joseph Smith, nor hold him to some special lordship at all. Rather, I totally acknowledge that he was a flawed sinner. I do still believe that her was also a servant of God, but that doesn't remotely make him perfect.

As to your question: when you get to Heaven, do you think that Christ and Paul (for example, I could name a bunch of other people) will be happy to see you and both welcome you in? Or do you somehow think Paul's going to say "nope, he should go away"

 

[Paul Christensen]

The part I underlined I also stated.

As to the rest: You're imposing Sola Sciptura here. I don't remotely believe in Sola Scriptura, don't fund suhc an idea support in the Bible and actually passionately disagree with it. So an argument based in "well the Bible doesn't say that" doesn't hold much water.

I remember once during a conversation with a Mormon elder when I quoted the Bible to him over a theological point, he got angry and retorted, "I don't care what the Bible says!" It was interesting that his companion, a much younger elder, when I started relating how the supernatural gifts of the Spirit worked in the life and ministry of Christian believers, he got very interested and start asking searching questions. I heard later that the young elder was suddenly transferred to the other end of the country. It showed me that he wasn't supposed to be asking genuine questions about the power of the Holy Spirit in that way.

 

[Paul Christensen]

"Anti-cultists" MAJORLY exaggerate the role either Joseph Smith or Brigham Young play in the LDS Christian faith. In reality, the role is much much smaller. I'm not a disciple of Joseph Smith, nor hold him to some special lordship at all. Rather, I totally acknowledge that he was a flawed sinner. I do still believe that her was also a servant of God, but that doesn't remotely make him perfect.

As to your question: when you get to Heaven, do you think that Christ and Paul (for example, I could name a bunch of other people) will be happy to see you and both welcome you in? Or do you somehow think Paul's going to say "nope, he should go away"

But the reference is not dated 1884. It is dated 1984, and so is a relatively modern teaching - unless 40 years later it has been edited out of the manual. If it is still in the manual for Mormon priests today, then it is still a current teaching of the church, even though you personally may not believe what the manual teaches.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Jane, I will put another log on the fire.
How would you explain "celestial marriage" where a Mormon husband and wife go through a ritual that enables them to continue their marriage in heaven, and to continue having babies in order to populate other planets?

There are testimonies of husbands divorcing wives who have left the church in order to find another wife with whom they can have their "celestial marriage".

If you are married with your husband also in the church, even if I was able to convince you that the Mormon Jesus is not the Jesus of the New Testament, you may not want to leave the church because of the consequences to your relationships in the church, and your marriage. Leaving the church might be fearful for you because you could lose your marriage, any children you have, your husband, furniture, and be left with nothing, as has been the experience of women who have become New Testament Christians and have decided to leave the Mormon church.

Of course, if you are a single woman, you will have no hope of having any celestial marriage which doesn't help your status in the church.

Comments?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I remember once during a conversation with a Mormon elder when I quoted the Bible to him over a theological point, he got angry and retorted, "I don't care what the Bible says!" It was interesting that his companion, a much younger elder, when I started relating how the supernatural gifts of the Spirit worked in the life and ministry of Christian believers, he got very interested and start asking searching questions. I heard later that the young elder was suddenly transferred to the other end of the country. It showed me that he wasn't supposed to be asking genuine questions about the power of the Holy Spirit in that way.

You're implanting your views here to draw false & over-generalized conclusions.

- The first one you're talking about seems likely an outburst of frustration, nothing more. LDS Christians of coursed consider the Bible to be very important and care deeply what that word of God. However, we don't worship the Bible.
- As to other other gentleman leaving, "missionary transfers": as they are called, happen up to every 6 weeks. They are very routine thing, and actually decided by solely the local missionary president (who'd be in Hamilton, for example). So yes, of course that young missionary moved areas! And frankly, it's unlikely the deciding missionary president even ever heard about your conversation.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

But the reference is not dated 1884. It is dated 1984, and so is a relatively modern teaching - unless 40 years later it has been edited out of the manual. If it is still in the manual for Mormon priests today, then it is still a current teaching of the church, even though you personally may not believe what the manual teaches.

Hey, are you going to answer my question?
When you get to Heaven, do you think that Christ and Paul (for example, I could name a bunch of other people) will be happy to see you and both welcome you in? Or do you somehow think Paul's going to say "nope, he should go away", followed by him and Christ have an argument about it?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Jane, I will put another log on the fire.

I'd greatly perfer to go in depth to one of the many points I have already addressed with you and get a response. This constant topic-jumping doesn't remotely go there. I'd also greartly perfer to focus on the most important topic (Christ) than other ones.

How would you explain "celestial marriage" where a Mormon husband and wife go through a ritual that enables them to continue their marriage in heaven, and to continue having babies in order to populate other planets?

There are testimonies of husbands divorcing wives who have left the church in order to find another wife with whom they can have their "celestial marriage".

If you are married with your husband also in the church, even if I was able to convince you that the Mormon Jesus is not the Jesus of the New Testament, you may not want to leave the church because of the consequences to your relationships in the church, and your marriage. Leaving the church might be fearful for you because you could lose your marriage, any children you have, your husband, furniture, and be left with nothing, as has been the experience of women who have become New Testament Christians and have decided to leave the Mormon church.

Of course, if you are a single woman, you will have no hope of having any celestial marriage which doesn't help your status in the church.

Comments?

Where to even start with your huge strawman here? This entire question is based your an extremely incorrect understanding of beliefs (no offense)... sigh. Give me a moment.

 

[Grailhunter]

The question is: is it the same Christ as in the New Testament?
Explain the teaching that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers and that Jesus was chosen to bring the light of faith into the world, and Lucifer was rejected. As a result Lucifer rebelled against God and became the devil and his angels became demons. How does this Jesus compare with the Jesus of the New Testament, and the Biblical description of Lucifer who was an Archangel who wanted to be like God and rebelled and was cast out of heaven along with his angels?

Paul,
First of all Lucifer is Latin for the planet Venus.....Yeap it is a female name....And you should go look it up and find out how it got in the Old Testament.
Satan is a name and devil is a designation...so what was Satan like before he became a devil?
Job...Why was it that Satan could just walk into Heaven? Wasn't he thrown out?
When did Satan become a devil?
Why did Satan rebel?
Why didn't God or the prophets warn people about Satan in the OT?
How did the Jews know of Satan in NT?
Why do Jews to this day do not have a devil in their beliefs?
Why don't Jew believe in the fall of angels...or fallen angels or the event that angels were cast out of Heaven?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Jane, I will put another log on the fire.
How would you explain "celestial marriage" where a Mormon husband and wife go through a ritual that enables them to continue their marriage in heaven, and to continue having babies in order to populate other planets?

There are testimonies of husbands divorcing wives who have left the church in order to find another wife with whom they can have their "celestial marriage".

If you are married with your husband also in the church, even if I was able to convince you that the Mormon Jesus is not the Jesus of the New Testament, you may not want to leave the church because of the consequences to your relationships in the church, and your marriage. Leaving the church might be fearful for you because you could lose your marriage, any children you have, your husband, furniture, and be left with nothing, as has been the experience of women who have become New Testament Christians and have decided to leave the Mormon church.

Of course, if you are a single woman, you will have no hope of having any celestial marriage which doesn't help your status in the church.

Comments?

So I made a list of things that are foundational things that need corrected here. To avoid a novel, I'll strive to keep it super short, just stating LDS Christian beliefs. If you want me to go in depth, quotation, etc on any point just ask.

- Men and women are saved through Jesus Christ, and faith in Him. It's not by passing a theology test, sitting on a certain denomination's bench, faithless rituals, or martial status or anything else.

- LDS Christians acknowledge the relationships non-LDS Christians have with Christ and their standing as Christians (that includes ex-LDS Christians). LDS Christians are encouraged to treat all with love & respect, again including ex-members. For example, my favorite aunt whom I regularly seek her advice is an ex-Mormon. I myself left for a while. Again, only love. Yes, there are folks whom handle people of other faiths poorly -- just like there are folks whom shun family members or spouses whom choose to become LDS Christians. That's because all humans (regardless of denomination) are still sinners and regularly fall short of what they should be doing.



Ok, that's long enough. Please, in the future I request that your respectfully ask me about what beliefs actually are (rather than assume) and be respectful. This post and several others have been based on extremely flawed assumptions (like leaving the LDS Christian church means you're loose your furniture...? ) and very disrespectful in their conduct.

 

[Paul Christensen]

"Anti-cultists" MAJORLY exaggerate the role either Joseph Smith or Brigham Young play in the LDS Christian faith. In reality, the role is much much smaller. I'm not a disciple of Joseph Smith, nor hold him to some special lordship at all. Rather, I totally acknowledge that he was a flawed sinner. I do still believe that her was also a servant of God, but that doesn't remotely make him perfect.

As to your question: when you get to Heaven, do you think that Christ and Paul (for example, I could name a bunch of other people) will be happy to see you and both welcome you in? Or do you somehow think Paul's going to say "nope, he should go away"

But the quote comes from the 1984 Priest manual - around 100 years after Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. Seeing that I am referring to a copy of the 40 year old manual, the reference may have been edited out. If not, then what is quoted still applies to the present-day LDS church, doesn't it?

I will say it again. You may very well believe that entry to heaven is through Christ alone, but it appears that the official teaching of the church says otherwise. So, in this matter, you are departing from the official teaching of the church.

If you think that the anti-cultists have twisted or exaggerated it in some way, look it up for yourself to see if that is what the manual actually says about getting to heaven through Joseph Smith.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

But the quote comes from the 1984 Priest manual - around 100 years after Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. Seeing that I am referring to a copy of the 40 year old manual, the reference may have been edited out. If not, then what is quoted still applies to the present-day LDS church, doesn't it?

I will say it again. You may very well believe that entry to heaven is through Christ alone, but it appears that the official teaching of the church says otherwise. So, in this matter, you are departing from the official teaching of the church.

If you think that the anti-cultists have twisted or exaggerated it in some way, look it up for yourself to see if that is what the manual actually says about getting to heaven through Joseph Smith.

I've asked this question a third time:
When you get to Heaven, do you think that Christ and Paul (for example, I could name a bunch of other people) will be happy to see you and both welcome you in? Or do you somehow think Paul's going to say "nope, he should go away", followed by him and Christ have an argument about it?

 

[Paul Christensen]

You're implanting your views here to draw false & over-generalized conclusions.

- The first one you're talking about seems likely an outburst of frustration, nothing more. LDS Christians of coursed consider the Bible to be very important and care deeply what that word of God. However, we don't worship the Bible.
- As to other other gentleman leaving, "missionary transfers": as they are called, happen up to every 6 weeks. They are very routine thing, and actually decided by solely the local missionary president (who'd be in Hamilton, for example). So yes, of course that young missionary moved areas! And frankly, it's unlikely the deciding missionary president even ever heard about your conversation.

So, I understand that you wouldn't acknowledge that the particular elder's remark about the Bible as the common attitude among Mormon elders. Maybe for you, the Bible is more important than any other Mormon publication, including the Book of Mormon. But that might prove a problem for you because hasn't it been said that to put the Book of Mormon in second place to any other book brings condemnation for a Mormon? (I don't know the answer to that, so I am looking to your comment on that.)