Calvinism vs. Arminianism

[Kermos]

Jesus, in John 6:28-29, said that "This is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom He sent." as if to say that, okay, you want to insist on being saved by works, so I am going to say that the only work that will save you is faith in me.

That works and faith are mutually exclusive as pertains to salvation is evident in Ephesians 2:8-9.

We are saved by grace through faith but not of works.

If faith is truly a work, as some do attempt to contend, then in being saved by faith I would be saved by works; and the scripture would be broken.

But in John 6:28-29 Jesus is telling the person who insists on being saved by works that the only work that will save them is faith in Him. And since faith is in all reality not a work (as we have shown in Ephesians 2:8-9), that leaves the person who insists on salvation by works with only one option: to not trust in his works but to place his faith in Jesus Christ.

Well, justbyfaith, your highlighted in red interpretation of John 6:28-29, includes two of your interpretive errors about the Word of God:

• you wrote, what appears to me, that faith is a work of man with your words of "the only work that will save you is faith in me".
• you subtracted from the Word of God that states that the work of God is a person believes in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).

Ephesians 2:8-10 is NOT mutually exclusive from John 6:29 for Paul writes that faith/belief which is not of work of man and that faith/belief is the gift of God. The "gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8-10) matches the "work of God" (John 6:29).

As the scripture states, faith/belief is not a work of man (Ephesians 2:8-10, John 6:28-29).

As the scripture states, faith/belief is the work of God (Ephesians 2:8-10, John 6:28-29).

 

[Kermos]

Faith isn't a work, Bubba.
And Jesus didn't say it was. I can not help it if you don't have reading comprehension.

The people asked about a work that the people could do "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" (John 6:28).

Jesus excluded the work of man in response to the question, and Jesus highlighted the work of God being faith/belief in the Word of God that says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Faith/belief is a work (John 6:29), so your interpretation subtracts from the Word of God as revealed by the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:20-21).

 

[Kermos]

You apparently have no problem blaspheming God by calling him evil.
"In him is no darkness at all."
But you don't believe that.

The Word of God says "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7).

"God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all" (1 John 1:5).

I believe that God creates the darkness AND I believe there is no darkness in God at all.

Your final sentence bears false witness against me who believes the Word of God.

In Isaiah 45:7, that word "evil" in English is "ra" in Hebrew, and we find "ra" in "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" in Genesis 2:17.

Therefore, the word "evil" in Isaiah 45:7 is accurate, so this means that the Word of God says that God creates evil. In your post here, you appear to have no problem adding and/or subtracting from the Word of God.

Again, you bear false witness against me in your first sentence with your false assertion.

More importantly, as shown in your prior post, you try to add and/or subtract from the Word of God which carries a deadly penalty of "if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

 

[Kermos]

Hey Renniks, here is another place where you tried to add and/or subtract from scripture:

That's an incredibly odd way to read the Bible, and I'm trying to be nice here. It means that basically the verse says that Jesus died not only for us but also for us.
The whole world is the whole world.

You reference "the whole world" in your post right there, and you and I have been corresponding about 1 John 2:2, so when "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19 is applied, based on your interpretation of "the whole world" that you express, then that puts you, Renniks, in the evil one. A Christian is not in the evil one (1 John 2:13).

 

[Renniks]

Hey Renniks, here is another place where you tried to add and/or subtract from scripture:



You reference "the whole world" in your post right there, and you and I have been corresponding about 1 John 2:2, so when "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19 is applied, based on your interpretation of "the whole world" that you express, then that puts you, Renniks, in the evil one. A Christian is not in the evil one (1 John 2:13).

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

John 3:16-18

This passage makes clear that God loves us; that he loves everyone in the world, not just a select few. It is also clear from this passage that God did what was needed to provide salvation for those that he loved. God gave his Son to be the atoning sacrifice for the whole world (1 John 2:2), in order to taste death for everyone (Heb. 2:9). Jesus was our sacrificial lamb (John 1:29) who delivers us from the wrath of God (1 Thess. 1:10) that we justly deserved. Over and over in the Scripture we see that Jesus died for the sins of the world. His sacrifice was made for everyone, not just for a few.


But while Christ’s death was for all people, the benefits of his sacrifice are effective only for those who will believe in Christ. As the passage above from John 3:16-18 makes clear, the sacrifice of Jesus was for the whole world. But only those who believe will obtain eternal life. And, those who do not believe remain in a state of condemnation. This is repeated in John 3:36; those who believe have eternal life.

Limiting the scope of ‘all the world’ to ‘all of the elect from around the world’ would seem to be a case of interpreting these passages in a way to support a specific doctrine, limited atonement, rather than allowing the Scripture to define the doctrine.

Two passages would seem to be clear that atonement was made for everyone, although not everyone experiences it. 1 John 2:2 says that Jesus “is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” His sacrifice was for all; for the whole world.

And 1 Timothy 4:10 expresses that the living God “is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.” This distinguishes believers from unbelievers in salvation, but still says that Christ is the savior of all people. The expression “especially of those who believe” in that passage really supports the idea that the sacrifice made for all people is only applicable for those who believe.

To deny the universality of the atonement is to deny the clear teaching of Scripture. Scripture teaches that God wants all men to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4). And that he desires no one to perish (2 Pet. 3:9).

• God . . .
  • . . . loves all of humanity – John 3:16
  • . . . desires all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth – 1 Tim. 2:4
  • . . . does not wish that any perish but that all should repent – 2 Pet. 3:9
• Christ . . .
  • . . . has tasted death for everyone – Heb. 2:9
  • . . . is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the whole world – 1 John 2:2
  • . . . gave himself as a ransom for all people – 1 Tim. 2:5-6
  • . . . is the savior of all people – 1 Tim. 4:10
  • . . . died for all – 1 Cor. 5:15
• The grace of God offers salvation to all people – Tit. 2:11
• Only those who believe are saved – John 3:16-18
• Those who believe in the Son have eternal life, those who reject him face the wrath of God – John 3:36
• God’s righteousness comes by faith to all who believe in Christ – Rom. 3:22
• Believe in your heart to be saved – Rom. 10:9-10
• Those who believe are saved – 1 Cor. 1:21
• Justified, not by works, but by faith in Jesus – Gal. 2:16
• Saved by grace through faith – Eph. 2:8-9
• Christ, the savior of all, especially those who believe – 1 Tim. 4:10

 

[Cooper]

The Word of God says "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7).

"God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all" (1 John 1:5).

I believe that God creates the darkness AND I believe there is no darkness in God at all.

Your final sentence bears false witness against me who believes the Word of God.

In Isaiah 45:7, that word "evil" in English is "ra" in Hebrew, and we find "ra" in "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" in Genesis 2:17.

Therefore, the word "evil" in Isaiah 45:7 is accurate, so this means that the Word of God says that God creates evil. In your post here, you appear to have no problem adding and/or subtracting from the Word of God.

Again, you bear false witness against me in your first sentence with your false assertion.

More importantly, as shown in your prior post, you try to add and/or subtract from the Word of God which carries a deadly penalty of "if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

When the Israelites were obedient and followed God there was peace in the land, and they prospered. This is the light. When they were dissobeident God punished the people by war, pestilence, and even sent them into captivity. This was the darkness, the good times, and the bad times. It was physical. The Israelites were more than capable of creating their own evil.
.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Mary chose Christ. It was HER choice.

And Jesus answered and said to her, "Martha, Martha, you are worried and troubled about many things. But one thing is needed, and Mary has chosen that good part, which will not be taken away from her." (Luke 10:41-42)
.

That was not for salvation, but to sit and listen or work! I have already answered teh difference between will and choice.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You are talking about the natural man, but the SPIRITUAL man or woman chooses Christ.

Martha was concerned with earthly things, but Mary chose Christ.
.

And I agree 100% with you here!

The natural man (one with just the human nature and no new nature within) cannot choose the things of God. th esaved person with the new nature has had free will restored and can choose Christ or not! Mary chose because she was a believer!.

 

[Cooper]

That was not for salvation, but to sit and listen or work! (That was Martha) I have already answered teh difference between will and choice.

It is God's will (wish, desire) for all to come to Him. That was Mary's choice, while Martha chose the things of earth. Notice Jesus simply said there was one thing she lacked, and he left it at that. No force or coercion. It was Marther's own choice.

If it was God who did the drawing we would all be attracted to him, and all nations would have One God. As it is, we are drawn/attracted to different things. It is our own preference, of ourselves, not of God. Jesus is not a dictator, He invites people of all nations, but forces no one.

We used to sing a devotional chorus that went, "Turn your eyes upon Jesus, look full in his wonderful face, and the things of earth will go strangely dim, when we look into His wonderful face." When we do that and accept his gift of salvation, we are born again, and we become a new creation. Martha chose earthly things while Mary looked heavenward.

I like walking in the countryside, others like shopping. The shops and hills cannot draw us, they are inanimate. It is OUR choice as to what we do, where we go, and what we believe. That is how it works, even here, there are people of different faiths. Clearly Jesus is not imposing His will on us, or we would all be of one mind. You will know from your own family, they all have their different personalities and go their various ways.

I chose Christ while others chose the things of the world. The blinding is for the wicked who have had ample opportunity to repent, but each time, they turn away from God and go their separate ways. That is our freewill choice. If God forced us to follow him in word and deed, there would be no Hell, but some choose Satan, and again that is down to the individual.

But one thing is needed, and Mary has chosen that good part, which will not be taken away from her." (Luke 10:42)

What will not be taken away from Mary?
God will not take away his grace from his people, neither shall any man pluck them out of his hand, John 10:28-29.

Lift up your eyes to the heavens, And look on the earth beneath. For the heavens will vanish away like smoke, The earth will grow old like a garment, And those who dwell in it will die in like manner; But My salvation will be forever, And My righteousness will not be abolished. (Isaiah 51:6)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:3-5)
.

 

[justbyfaith]

Well, justbyfaith, your highlighted in red interpretation of John 6:28-29, includes two of your interpretive errors about the Word of God:

• you wrote, what appears to me, that faith is a work of man with your words of "the only work that will save you is faith in me".
• you subtracted from the Word of God that states that the work of God is a person believes in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).

Ephesians 2:8-10 is NOT mutually exclusive from John 6:29 for Paul writes that faith/belief which is not of work of man and that faith/belief is the gift of God. The "gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8-10) matches the "work of God" (John 6:29).

As the scripture states, faith/belief is not a work of man (Ephesians 2:8-10, John 6:28-29).

As the scripture states, faith/belief is the work of God (Ephesians 2:8-10, John 6:28-29).

You have simply misunderstood my statements by isolating them from the rest of what I was saying.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It is God's will (wish, desire) for all to come to Him. That was Mary's choice, while Martha chose the things of earth. If it was God who did the drawing we would all be attracted to him, and we would all have the One God. As it is we are drawn/attracted differently. It is our preference. Jesus is not a dictator, He invites people of all nations, but forces no one. We used to sing a devotional chorus that went, "Turn your eyes upon Jesus, look full in his wonderful face, and the things of earth will go strangely dim, in the light of His wonderful face." When we do that and accept his gift of salvation, we are born again, and we become a new creation. Martha chose earthly things while Mary looked heavenward. I like walking in the countryside, others like shopping. The shops and hills cannot draw us, they are inanimate. It is OUR choice and that is how it works, even on here there are people of different faiths. Clearly Jesus is not forcing us to follow him, or we would all be of one mind. You will know from your own family, they all have their different personalities and go their various ways. I chose Christ while others chose the things of the world. The blinding is for the wicked who have had ample opportunity to repent, but each time, they turn away from God and go their separate ways. That is freewill choice. If God forced us to follow him in word and deed, there would be no Hell, but some choose the opposer, and again that is down to the individual.

But one thing is needed, and Mary has chosen that good part, which will not be taken away from her." (Luke 10:42)

What will not be taken away from Mary?
God will not take away his grace from his people, neither shall any man pluck them out of his hand, John 10:28-29.

Lift up your eyes to the heavens, And look on the earth beneath. For the heavens will vanish away like smoke, The earth will grow old like a garment, And those who dwell in it will die in like manner; But My salvation will be forever, And My righteousness will not be abolished. (Isaiah 51:6)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:3-5)
.

Well all your philosophical opining aside, that is not Scripture but your "feelings".

MArtha and Mary were both believers and werenot speaking of salvation or how people got to the place of accepting christ. And all that was not taken away from Martha that you highlighted in blue.

This was aabout doing work or listening to Jesus. Martha was just as saved as Mary so both had their free will restored!

 

[Cooper]

Well all your philosophical opining aside, that is not Scripture but your "feelings".

MArtha and Mary were both believers and werenot speaking of salvation or how people got to the place of accepting christ. And all that was not taken away from Martha that you highlighted in blue.

This was aabout doing work or listening to Jesus. Martha was just as saved as Mary so both had their free will restored!

What on earth are you on about, "they both had their free will restored?" They always had freewill.
.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

What on earth are you on about, "they both had their free will restored?" They always had freewill.
.

Not according to Gods Word. Every one is born lost, dead in their trespasses and sins, slaves to sins, and unable to please God. We are born again to be alive to God, tto serve righteousness, be slaves to righteousness.

But what Mary and MArtha did had nothingto do with salvation, but volitional choices that are within the purview of man.

As I have oft written, mankinnd is free to make many choices within the bounds god has set for mankind to live in, but Soteriological choices come from God.

 

[Cooper]

Not according to Gods Word. Every one is born lost, dead in their trespasses and sins, slaves to sins, and unable to please God. We are born again to be alive to God, tto serve righteousness, be slaves to righteousness.

But what Mary and MArtha did had nothingto do with salvation, but volitional choices that are within the purview of man.

As I have oft written, mankinnd is free to make many choices within the bounds god has set for mankind to live in, but Soteriological choices come from God.

You, Ronald Nolette say, "mankinnd is free to make many choices"

That is free will.

Many chose Christ while he walked the earth, but many rejected Him. They exercised their free will.

That is freewill.
.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

"mankinnd is free to make many choices" That is free will.

Yes we have the right to make many choices inlife. When we are able we can choose what to eat, what to wear, who to marry , what car to drive, etc.etc.etc.etc. Those are all things god put in th epurview of man to decide, unless God wants a person to have a certain car etc., then God will let them know!

But when it comes to choices for salvation, unsaved man has no free will as the verses I showed you clearly and explicitly say.

You have given me verses that you say imply free will. Well doctrine is established not on implications, but on what is explicit!

When I teah soteriology, for th epurpose of getting mys tudents to understand the difference I make the following arbitrary definitions:

volition is the ability of mankind to make choices inhis life on a temporal, mental and emotional basis.
examples: howw to respond, what to eat,wear etc.

will has to do with teh ability to choose or not choose god and the natural or unsaved man will
NEVER choose god based onhis own limited volition.

 

[Cooper]

Yes we have the right to make many choices inlife. When we are able we can choose what to eat, what to wear, who to marry , what car to drive, etc.etc.etc.etc. Those are all things god put in th epurview of man to decide, unless God wants a person to have a certain car etc., then God will let them know!

But when it comes to choices for salvation, unsaved man has no free will as the verses I showed you clearly and explicitly say.

You have given me verses that you say imply free will. Well doctrine is established not on implications, but on what is explicit!

When I teah soteriology, for th epurpose of getting mys tudents to understand the difference I make the following arbitrary definitions:

volition is the ability of mankind to make choices inhis life on a temporal, mental and emotional basis.
examples: howw to respond, what to eat,wear etc.

will has to do with teh ability to choose or not choose god and the natural or unsaved man will
NEVER choose god based onhis own limited volition.

If you want any help, feel free to ask.
.

 

[Grailhunter]

c’est la vie
or
coup de grâce

 

[Kermos]

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

John 3:16-18

This passage makes clear that God loves us; that he loves everyone in the world, not just a select few. It is also clear from this passage that God did what was needed to provide salvation for those that he loved. God gave his Son to be the atoning sacrifice for the whole world (1 John 2:2), in order to taste death for everyone (Heb. 2:9). Jesus was our sacrificial lamb (John 1:29) who delivers us from the wrath of God (1 Thess. 1:10) that we justly deserved. Over and over in the Scripture we see that Jesus died for the sins of the world. His sacrifice was made for everyone, not just for a few.


But while Christ’s death was for all people, the benefits of his sacrifice are effective only for those who will believe in Christ. As the passage above from John 3:16-18 makes clear, the sacrifice of Jesus was for the whole world. But only those who believe will obtain eternal life. And, those who do not believe remain in a state of condemnation. This is repeated in John 3:36; those who believe have eternal life.

Limiting the scope of ‘all the world’ to ‘all of the elect from around the world’ would seem to be a case of interpreting these passages in a way to support a specific doctrine, limited atonement, rather than allowing the Scripture to define the doctrine.

Two passages would seem to be clear that atonement was made for everyone, although not everyone experiences it. 1 John 2:2 says that Jesus “is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” His sacrifice was for all; for the whole world.

And 1 Timothy 4:10 expresses that the living God “is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.” This distinguishes believers from unbelievers in salvation, but still says that Christ is the savior of all people. The expression “especially of those who believe” in that passage really supports the idea that the sacrifice made for all people is only applicable for those who believe.

To deny the universality of the atonement is to deny the clear teaching of Scripture. Scripture teaches that God wants all men to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4). And that he desires no one to perish (2 Pet. 3:9).

• God . . .
  • . . . loves all of humanity – John 3:16
  • . . . desires all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth – 1 Tim. 2:4
  • . . . does not wish that any perish but that all should repent – 2 Pet. 3:9
• Christ . . .
  • . . . has tasted death for everyone – Heb. 2:9
  • . . . is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the whole world – 1 John 2:2
  • . . . gave himself as a ransom for all people – 1 Tim. 2:5-6
  • . . . is the savior of all people – 1 Tim. 4:10
  • . . . died for all – 1 Cor. 5:15
• The grace of God offers salvation to all people – Tit. 2:11
• Only those who believe are saved – John 3:16-18
• Those who believe in the Son have eternal life, those who reject him face the wrath of God – John 3:36
• God’s righteousness comes by faith to all who believe in Christ – Rom. 3:22
• Believe in your heart to be saved – Rom. 10:9-10
• Those who believe are saved – 1 Cor. 1:21
• Justified, not by works, but by faith in Jesus – Gal. 2:16
• Saved by grace through faith – Eph. 2:8-9
• Christ, the savior of all, especially those who believe – 1 Tim. 4:10

Renniks, do you believe that you, right now, are a part of "the whole world" as it is written in "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19)?

 

[Grailhunter]

 

[Kermos]

When the Israelites were obedient and followed God there was peace in the land, and they prospered. This is the light. When they were dissobeident God punished the people by war, pestilence, and even sent them into captivity. This was the darkness, the good times, and the bad times. It was physical. The Israelites were more than capable of creating their own evil.
.

Cooper, since you are responding to the post respecting the Isaiah 45:7 passage, then I take it that you are writing specifically about this passage.

It appears to me that you are subtracting and/or adding to the Word of God, Cooper.

God uses the first person of "I" in the passage to speak about God, so that "I" is not the Israelites.

"God is light" (1 John 1:5).

God says "I form the light" (Isaiah 45:7).

God says God creates darkness (Isaiah 45:7).

God says God makes peace (Isaiah 45:7).

God says God creates evil (Isaiah 45:7).

Here is the passage:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7).

In Isaiah 45:7, that word "evil" in English is "ra" in Hebrew, and we find "ra" in "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" in Genesis 2:17; therefore, the word "evil" in Isaiah 45:7 is accurate, so this means that the Word of God says that God creates evil.