Who is Jesus Christ?

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Pearl

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Oh no you haven't upset me, and I am sorry, I do realize English is definitely somewhat different there. What respectful way may I refer to you? My neighbor comes from Germany, and her doctor called her maam the other day and he got mad, said the doctor was basically calling her the Madam of a prostitution ring. I kinda giggled and explained it to him. Is that what it means to you?

Hi Robert, no it's nothing like that, for that it would be madam which I hate. When people address the queen they say ma'am - pronounced mam as in ham not marm as in harm.
As for a mark of respect I really don't need it from a brother in Christ anymore than I would from a family member. Respect is in the attitude not the words. But thanks for it anyway.
 

Wrangler

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Not 3 "parts" but 3 distinct Persons, as is very clear in Matthew 28.19 for example.

Total project onto unitarian text. If Jesus said to baptize in the name of Moe, Larry & Curly, it does not mean they are God or equal. In addition, Matthew 28:19 is a corruption not found in the original text. See my thread on why the Apostles disobeyed the resurrected Jesus.
do we see the Apostles or anyone else for that matter following the explicit instructions of Christ here? Here are all verses where anyone was baptized into the name of anyone. Acts 2:38; Acts 8:12; Acts 8:16; Acts 10:48; Acts 19:5; Acts 22:16; Romans 6:3; 1 Corinthians 1:13; Galatians 3:27. But as you can see, there is not one person following what Christ supposedly instructed them to do. In every verse we find people baptized into the name of our Lord Jesus Christ only. So why the apparent disobedience of the apostles?

The following dictionary explains, “The historical riddle is not solved by Matthew 28:19, since, according to a wide scholarly consensus, it is not an authentic saying of Jesus, not even an elaboration of a Jesus-saying on baptism.” — (The Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 1, 1992, p. 585). Further research revealed this to be the case as all Bible commentaries and dictionaries quoting on this issue claimed that it was added by the Church of Rome to support their Trinitarian formula.

Eusebius (c. 260—c. 340) was the Bishop of Caesarea and is known as “the Father of Church History.” He wrote prolifically and his most celebrated work is his Ecclesiastical History, a history of the Church from the Apostolic period until his own time. Eusebius quotes many verses in his writings including Matthew 28:19 several times. But he never quotes it as it appears in modern Bibles. He always finishes the verse with the words “in my name.”

The following example comes from an unaltered book of Matthew that could have been the original or the first copy of the original. Thus Eusebius informs us of the actual words Jesus spoke to his disciples in Matthew 28:19 which were, “With one word and voice He said to His disciples: “Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you,” — (Proof of the Gospel by Eusebius, Book III, Ch. 6, 132 (a), p. 152)

Eusebius was present at the council of Nicea and was involved in the debates over the Godhead. If the manuscripts he had in front of him read “in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” he would never have quoted instead, “in my name.” So it appears that the earliest manuscripts read “in my name,” and the phrase was enlarged to reflect the orthodox position as Trinitarian influence spread.

 
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Wrangler

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Complete rubbish

You are so emotionally invested in this that you fail to realize that 2 is not 3. The trinity is just a front to advance the man-is-God thesis. That is why you present a verse that is silent on the non-existent 3rd person while holding it as definitive support of trinitarian doctrine.

What is complete rubbish is to pretend the trinity is the central theme of the Bible when it is not mentioned once. Trinitarians embark is a synthesis of verses to re-construct their trinity doctrine from unitarian text. Don't forget the entire Bible is written by monotheist Jews who reject the trinity to this day.
 
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ByGraceThroughFaith

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You are so emotionally invested in this that you fail to realize that 2 is not 3. The trinity is just a front to advance the man-is-God thesis. That is why you present a verse that is silent on the non-existent 3rd person while holding it as definitive support of trinitarian doctrine.

What is complete rubbish is to pretend the trinity is the central theme of the Bible when it is not mentioned once. Trinitarians embark is a synthesis of verses to re-construct their trinity doctrine from unitarian text. Don't forget the entire Bible is written by monotheist Jews who reject the trinity to this day.

Unless the Lord opens your eyes to this Great Truth you will never understand. It is not a human thing
 

marks

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Hi Marks, yes sir that is my point, if he was actually God, then it was his choice to choose who would be his right hand man, in fact the Bible points out that position actually would go to him, he was exalted to the right hand of Jehovah, as well as given the privilege of being the next King to sit on Jehovah's throne.

The verse you used to show equality was badly translated sir, it makes it appear that he is equal to Jehovah, but that is not the case, as mentioned sitting at Jehovah's right hand is not literally a sitting place, but refers to position. 1 Cor 11:3 written after his return to heaven clearly showed that Jehovah is the head of Jesus, as he is the head of man, who is the head of woman.

Likely you are familiar that Jesus said that Jehovah was greater than him, but that was while he was a human, but there is no doubt about the account mentioned in 1 Cor.
I've had this discussion, and studied the topic, for a number of years. You could say I'm familiar with the material.

Jeremiah wrote that YHWH is the God of all flesh, and therefore, when Jesus took on flesh, He took that on also. He joined us in our fleshy lives in all respects except without sin. Yet still He submitted to the Father as we are all to do. It's like He told John. He didn't need to be baptized, that was for the remission of sin, and He had no sin. Yet still He submitted to being baptized. He did everything we were supposed to do.

But again, from Philippians,

Philippians 2:6-8 KJV
6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

I'm not talking about "to be equal with God". There's quite the discussion about those words, but no, I'm looking at:

made himself of no reputation
took upon him the form of a servant
being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself

Each of these three statements show transition. Transition involves both a former and latter state of being. And of course this is what that means to me:

God the Mighty and Exalted One . . . made Himself of no reputation.

God, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords . . . took upon Him the form of a servant.

God, the Creator of all, being found in fashion as a man, submitted Himself to that lowly estate.

Now, whether you would frame this as I do, probably not, right? However . . . Where was Jesus before He was a child in Mary's womb? And Who was He? We know Him, we've seen Him in the Bible.

No one has seen the Father at any time. Who did Abraham serve a meal to?

Genesis 18:1-5 KJV
1) And the YHWH appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2) And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3) And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
4) Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:
5) And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.

Much love!
 
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marks

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if he was actually God, then it was his choice to choose who would be his right hand man,
On this part, my thinking is that in Jesus taking on the form of a servant, He was setting aside His choosing of these things. And in being found in fashion as a man, He humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, and of course, unto everything else, so that He could truthfully say, I only do what I see the Father do, and I only say what the Father says.

He did nothing of His Own initiative, as a man in this world.

Much love!
 

kcnalp

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That is why I said to research it, it was deliberately altered and rather easy to find if you want to. Really makes a difference in knowing who God and Jesus are, it can lead to eternal life Enoch Jn 17:3

Did you know that when Jesus returns he is going to destroy those who do not know God? 2 Thes 1:8,9
Their bodies, yes. And they will burn in the everlasting fire "forever and forever".
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
 

Brakelite

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Have you ever tried imagining what that would be like?

I mean, wow!!
I have... And can't. If you get my drift. Did it dawn on Him slowly, or did it come as a revelation overnight? Yet there must have been a moment when the realization became settled and He said to himself... My dad is the King of the universe!
In the wilderness Satan tried to convince Him otherwise. Are you sure you're the Son of God? Prove it.
No. I'm not gonna prove nothing. It's written.
Wow alright. That's faith. God said it...I believe it.
Faith enough to heal the brokenhearted. Not Him doing the healing... But the Father.
He's our example. We can live like that. We can love like that. If we have faith. Even just a little faith. Moves mountains.
His living was one thing. His dying was altogether another. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the fact that when Jesus died, because He had to accept our death...a death with no hope of a resurrection... Jesus, at the point of death, feared even He was eternally lost because of His accepting our sin upon Himself. Which means He loved us so much He was willing to give up everything... Everything... Literally... That we might live. That's wow.
 

APAK

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I have... And can't. If you get my drift. Did it dawn on Him slowly, or did it come as a revelation overnight? Yet there must have been a moment when the realization became settled and He said to himself... My dad is the King of the universe!
In the wilderness Satan tried to convince Him otherwise. Are you sure you're the Son of God? Prove it.
No. I'm not gonna prove nothing. It's written.
Wow alright. That's faith. God said it...I believe it.
Faith enough to heal the brokenhearted. Not Him doing the healing... But the Father.
He's our example. We can live like that. We can love like that. If we have faith. Even just a little faith. Moves mountains.
His living was one thing. His dying was altogether another. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the fact that when Jesus died, because He had to accept our death...a death with no hope of a resurrection... Jesus, at the point of death, feared even He was eternally lost because of His accepting our sin upon Himself. Which means He loved us so much He was willing to give up everything... Everything... Literally... That we might live. That's wow.
Your last point is riveting and miss by many, even myself in the main...I usually gloss over it....

His faith for sure was so strong even on the cross, that he knew his resurrection was assured IAW scripture....that is my quick answer. Yes he gave up everything for his Father's desire to save all. How close they worked together is hard to know - 'as one' per scripture. They were 'tight' in the most extreme way.
Addition///

I shared this reply and your input Backlit to my wife...she added a great point...Christ did doubt and his faith was weakened at two points...in the Garden and when the Father's spirit momentarily left Christ on the cross....he must have felt lost and abandoned with possibly no hope...??
 
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Wrangler

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John 1 The Word was God.
The Word became flesh ...

Jesus is God of the Bible.

Wrong. It’s such a desperate trinitarian reach to suppose this figurative verse makes this statement. Beings and people are not words. HINT: The Word is the Word of God, not Jesus.
 

Brakelite

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Your last point is riveting and miss by many, even myself in the main...I usually gloss over it....

His faith for sure was so strong even on the cross, that he knew his resurrection was assured IAW scripture....that is my quick answer. Yes he gave up everything for his Father's desire to save all. How close they worked together is hard to know - 'as one' per scripture. They were 'tight' in the most extreme way.
Addition///

I shared this reply and your input Backlit to my wife...she added a great point...Christ did doubt and his faith was weakened at two points...in the Garden and when the Father's spirit momentarily left Christ on the cross....he must have felt lost and abandoned with possibly no hope...??
Yes, precisely. But imagine what it cost the Father as He had to deliberately step away from His Son.. No comfort... No loving encouragement... Jesus died utterly and completely alone. The Father would have suffered greatly experiencing such pain we cannot imagine, holding back that which was in His power to give!
The weight and burden of sin so great... So foreign to Jesus nature... That He thought even His own Father had abandoned Him. And yet in the midst of that He was able to place His trust in the Father's Love... Into your hands I commit My spirit. He did not despair completely.
The death He died was the second death. A death with no hope. A death that realizes all is lost. A death that is filled with fear and regret. Of opportunities spurned. A death of guilt, shame, and an acceptance of justice for sin. And for Jesus, no reassurance that the sacrifice He was making for lost humanity was going to be accepted by His Father.
How much the Father must have longed to place His arm around His beloved Son, but that the atonement be complete, had to turn away from His Son, leaving Him in darkness and doubt.
 
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Brakelite

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Wrong. It’s such a desperate trinitarian reach to suppose this figurative verse makes this statement. Beings and people are not words. HINT: The Word is the Word of God, not Jesus.

I think you need to take a little more care in your determination to prove yourself right. In your desperation to prove to are right, you are bordering on making some statements that could prove embarrassing and fatal to your faith. Remember, you are treading on holy ground when speaking of the Godhead. Have some respect. This warning is not just for you, but for everyone who had the temerity to make authoritative statements regarding something they know so little about. The nature of the Almighty.
 
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